Was socrates a martyr for revealing secrets?

Here is one to pick your brains on,it is well known that Socrates was an initiate to the mystery school(s) of his day, I believe that it is Phaedo (though it may be Phaedra) where we have a dialog of Socrates, in essence on his deathbed, having been administered the hemlock that will bring about his demise, and the essence of the dialog is the existence of the soul,its immortality, and reincarnation of it, knowledge being not learned but remembered from past incarnations, etc.... However, there is a line to the effect of this (exact wording may be off) The laurel bearers are many, but the mystics few.

In ancient initiatory schools in the time of Socrates the laurel bearers would have been the neophytes, or those on the lower end/entry to the initiatory mystery schools of knowledge.Advancement into the full knowledge of the mysteries, and the allegorical meanings (often astrologically based) of the tales were only given by those who had proven themselves.The methods of proof varied from one initiatory system to the next, however we do see that Socrates was brought up on charges of corrupting youth, and religious charges, my question is this.

There has often been a penalty in initiatory systems of knowledge for revealing "truths" for those that they were not meant for, did perhaps Socrates let people know too much about the structure of the system,, that the Gods were not literal, that they were allegorical, or was there a fear from the religious leaders at the time that he knew too much and may decide to enlighten others, or do you think that the institution feared him because of his superior power of intellect.

Discuss.

I agree with many points of your analysis. However, Socrates' accusers were not initiates, but were profane and secular rulers (see Socrates' speech to his accusers in Plato's Apology).

Basically, he was charged with atheism and "corrupting the youth". He was not really an atheist, but as an Initiate, he had simply rejected the literal interpretation of the religious myths of his day. Doing this is also likely to get one into trouble with the crowd even today.



[edit on 10-7-2007 by Masonic Light]

True his accusers themselves may not have been Initiates, but to think that religion/religious leaders may have felt threatened by his interpretations of teachings of the day, and fear that with his logic he may bring a collapse to their system/ power structure, or cause people to question, and therefore may have brought pressure upon political authorities to bring about an end to him, is in my opinion not a long stretch of the imagination.

Leaders fear people who question, and intelligent people who question even moreso.

Originally posted by brotherforchrist
True his accusers themselves may not have been Initiates, but to think that religion/religious leaders may have felt threatened by his interpretations of teachings of the day, and fear that with his logic he may bring a collapse to their system/ power structure, or cause people to question, and therefore may have brought pressure upon political authorities to bring about an end to him, is in my opinion not a long stretch of the imagination.

I think that's exactly what happened. Also, Socrates was despised by the new Athenian democracy because he had ties to the Thirty (although Socrates refused orders from the Thirty on more than one occasion because they violated his ethical principles). Nevertheless, they saw him as anti-democratic, and I believe that they were looking for an excuse to make an example out of him.

Soon afterward, Plato fled Athens himself, so that "philosophy would not be sinned against once more".

On top of which, if the allegory of the cave can be literally attributed to Socrates and not Plato speaking through Socrates' mouth, it seems that Socrates was advocating a sort of "philosocracy" - it's obvious that he doesn't think the common man should have a say in government, only the "enlightened". Which in this case seems to pretty much be his students.

I can see that not going over very well.

I really don't think that the common man has much of a say in government anyways, seems like the same bad choices one year after the next, and lobbies and big business dictate legislation, so the masses really don't get much of a say, the same unresolved issues rehashed year in and year out, to keep peoples minds and eyes off the things that really matter.I think the founding fathers roll over in their graves when they see how ineffective our government is and what the US has become.

It's really not sure what Socrates actually said or did since he didn't write anyone down. As another poster stated, it's hard to discern what Socrates said and where it is Plato talking.

Well, firstly, at least to my knowledge, Socrates was not an atheist... However, given that everything about Socrates was written by Plato, I am not sure that we can know exactly what Socrates taught. However, I have always taken it for granted that much of Plato's philosophy was derived from parts of Socrate's philosophy.

Most of what we think we know about Socrates comes from a student of his over forty years his junior, Plato. Socrates himself wrote--so far as we know--nothing. Plato (427 to 347 B.C.E) is especially important to our understanding of the trial of Socrates because he, along with Xenophon, wrote the only two surviving accounts of the defense (or apology) of Socrates. Of the two authors, Plato's account is generally given more attention by scholars because he, unlike Xenophon, actually attended the one-day trial of Socrates in Athens in 399 B.C.E.

Source

Plato's writings are generally divided into three broad groups: the "Socratic" dialogues (written from 399 to 387), the "Middle" dialogues (written from 387 to 361, after the establishment of his Academy in Athens), and the "Later" dialogues (written in the period between 361 and his death in 347). Three of Plato's four writings concerning the last days of Socrates come from the earliest "Socratic" period: Euthyphro, the Apology, and the Crito. Euthyphro is an imagined dialogue between Socrates and Euthyphro about piety--Socrates stood charged with impiety--as Socrates prepared to enter the Royal Stoa to formally answer the charges brought against him by Meletus and other accusers. The Apology is presented as the speech given by Socrates in his own defense at his 399 trial. The Crito is a piece in which Socrates discussed his obligation to accept his punishment of death, however unjust he and his supporters might think it to be. Phaedo, a dialogue describing Socrates' thoughts on death and other subjects before he drinks the fatal hemlock comes from Plato's middle, or transitional period.

Source

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Well, firstly, at least to my knowledge, Socrates was not an atheist... However, given that everything about Socrates was written by Plato, I am not sure that we can know exactly what Socrates taught. However, I have always taken it for granted that much of Plato's philosophy was derived from parts of Socrate's philosophy.

This is the general consensus. It is usually agreed that Plato's early works reflect Socratic philosophy very accurately, while his mid-to-later works show Plato's independent thought (even though his continued to put his own ideas in the mouth of Socrates via the dialogue form of his writings).

Aside from Plato, another contemporary of Socrates who wrote about him was Aristophanes. However, he often lampooned Socrates in his plays, placing him in ridiculous and absurd situations.

Originally posted by Masonic Light


Aside from Plato, another contemporary of Socrates who wrote about him was Aristophanes. However, he often lampooned Socrates in his plays, placing him in ridiculous and absurd situations.

Yeah.. Wasn't Aristophanes a "Comedic?" I am not sure, but if my memory serves me correctly he was supposed to have been one of the first "comedics."

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth


Yeah.. Wasn't Aristophanes a "Comedic?" I am not sure, but if my memory serves me correctly he was supposed to have been one of the first "comedics."

Yes. However, Plato got his revenge on the old comedian for mocking his mentor. In his "Symposium", Plato has Aristophanes as one of the characters in the dialogue. However, Aristophanes is unable to speak: every time he attempts to rebut Socrates, he experiences chronic burping.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Well, firstly, at least to my knowledge, Socrates was not an atheist... However, given that everything about Socrates was written by Plato, I am not sure that we can know exactly what Socrates taught. However, I have always taken it for granted that much of Plato's philosophy was derived from parts of Socrate's philosophy.

Actually, he did make fun of the gods and belief in them. But it was Plato who went to the mystery schools (and his writing changes afterwards).

Don't want to start some board wars, but there's good information here:
www.gnn.tv...

Wasn't Socrates a pederast and a homosexual? Could this have perhaps had something to do with his sentence? Wasn't he charged with "corrupting the youth".

Also, we must remember that Socrates had the option to flee Athens but he refused to do this.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by uberarcanist
Wasn't Socrates a pederast and a homosexual? Could this have perhaps had something to do with his sentence? Wasn't he charged with "corrupting the youth".

No.

And besides, in those days it wasn't illegal or immoral. Look up Sparta, where soldiers were EXPECTED to have a male lover to fight with them and young boys were indocrinated into homosexuality/bisexuality as part of their military training.

Have a gander at what Wikipedia says (something that all of us Greek history junkies knew, and that they left out of the movie "Sparta". )
en.wikipedia.org...

And yes, Plato was charged with infecting them with ideas on how to govern... ideas that the guys in power didn't like. They thought he could build up a group of young men and take over the government.

Originally posted by uberarcanist
Wasn't Socrates a pederast and a homosexual? Could this have perhaps had something to do with his sentence?

No. Pederasty was accepted as "normal" in ancient Athens, and was widespread. Plato's writings, for example, are filled with pederastic nuances.

Whether or not Socrates himself practices pederasty is hard to say. In the "Symposium" and "Phaedrus", Socrates and the male philosophy student Phaedrus engage in flirtation, but we have no way of knowing if this is historical, or just something Plato made up.

However Plato, who was himself a homosexual, opposed pederasty. Aristotle, who was heterosexual, once commented that Plato's love for intelligent young men was "pure", which gave birth to the phrase "Platonic love", i.e., non-sexual love.

Wasn't he charged with "corrupting the youth".

Yes. The official charge was "corrupting the youth through the teaching of atheism". However, Socrates didn't really teach atheism, he just seemed to teach that the Greek myths were allegorical instead of literal.

Also, we must remember that Socrates had the option to flee Athens but he refused to do this.

True. He was willing to sacrifice himself for his ideals. Sort of like Che Guevara, but without the uzi.

Originally posted by uberarcanist
Wasn't Socrates a pederast and a homosexual? Could this have perhaps had something to do with his sentence? Wasn't he charged with "corrupting the youth".

Why is it that this charge is always brought against Mystic thinkers? Ridiculous... The answer to your question is, uh, NO....

[edit on 19-7-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Read wikipedia's article on pederasty and you'll find that pederasty, at times, was frowned upon in Ancient Greece.

Uber, it seems to me that you are making the whole "corrupting the youth" thing to mean what you want it to mean... What it really meant was that he was causing the youth of the country to ask questions. To the ancient Grecian that was a "corruption."


By the way, Wikipedia is not necessarily the best source of information. Most can put whatever they wish on Wikipedia. I'd suggest you go to an actual site about Socrates and find out about him there.

Speaker, if you could point out specific inaccuracies in wiki's article on pederasty, I think that would be very helpful.

I don't see anything in that article accusing him of being a homosexual or a pederast... Where are you coming up with these ideas?