Christianity is based on Egyptian Myths - Jesus Christ is Horus

Originally posted by undo
I don't know how many times I have to tell you this,
but dear sir/ma'am, I didn't concoct the 24 hour thing,
Zeitgeist did.

I'm using the information from Zeitgeist to counter yours, so no, it didn't concoct any of what you said.

Originally posted by truthwillneverberevealedbyrd can you debunk zeitgeist?

Is there a link to text?

I simply do NOT have the time to sit through a video several times in order to collect information.

Originally posted by undo
the red disk on horus' head is said to be the sun, but originally, it was
from the hathor disk. that's a long story but it is not the
sun, it's Mars. this relates back to the legend of the destruction of mankind, an
egyptian story. The Eye of RA, likewise, is not the Sun. In fact, it's the same red disk on Hathor's crown and Horus' crown. It's Mars and there's a reason it's Mars, but that's for another thread.

Horus was the older god (not Hathor, whose name means "House of Horus.") And I'm not sure why you'd say it was Mars when any number of Egyptian texts associate it with the sun.

Horus, by the way, doesn't wear a solar crown (Hathor does) but rather the atef-crown (double crown).
www.touregypt.net...

he's making this up as he goes along to support his astrology is the key to all religious
ideas and astrology is itself, based on the sun moon and stars. etc. which is right back
to the idea that these events are purely metaphor and that they were never real entities,
and thusly all the ancient texts are lying.

Thanks for that insight.

Originally posted by undo
Funny thing is, it wasn't my analolgy. It was Zeitgeist who said Horus was the sun and Set was the night, and every night, Set would kill Horus and he'd rise again the next day.

MMmkay... yes, we can refute that.

Horus' aspects were associated with 3 different planets and (only) with the rising morning sun. The evening (dying) sun was associated with Osiris: www.egyptologyonline.com...

And from the Amduat itself ("Book of the Underworld" translations of texts found on the walls of tombs), you can see that the dying sun becomes Ra/Re in the underworld, travels there, confronts his serpent enemy Apophis, and defeats him and emerges from the underworld as a scarab beetle. Set's not there and Horus doesn't die:
www.nga.gov...

Even the oldest inscriptions (pyramid texts) talk of Ra/Re being the sun god in the underworld.
www.egyptvoyager.com...

(more about these texts: www.globalegyptianmuseum.org... )

Horus always triumphs (though he does lose an eye that Thoth replaces for him.)

A very long discourse on the material is here:
www.sofiatopia.org...

Originally posted by Ironside
jimbo999: I don't think scientists know much for history ((at a professional level)), wouldn't it be historians who would have this information?

Actually, they do.

In doing research, the first thing they do is a "literature search." I've done them. It's about as much fun as poking your eyeballs out with straws. You review about 100 books on the topic (current lit and then check their references) and pick 50 or so that apply to what you're doing.

Most are VERY aware of the history (and scholarly brawls thereof) in their fiends.

Originally posted by NJE777
ok as for Harpur's sources, I have searched online to provide some until I receive the book from my Mum in the post.

Thanks for the excellent search of the sources!

Three virtually unknown authorities used in this book are Godfrey Higgins (1771-1834), an early English mythologist who, through groundbreaking studies of ancient writings, sought freedom from the exclusivism and dogmatism of Christianity; Gerald Massey (1828-1907) an American, who studied Egyptian mythology and there discovered antecedents to images and themes appearing in the Hebrew Bible and New Testament; and Alvin Boyd Kuhn (1880-1963) another American, who pursued extensive academic research into the origins of religious symbols and meanings. His work, though esoteric to untrained eyes, convinced Harpur of the validity of Egyptian sources for much of what appears in the Jewish and Christian scriptures.

That explains a lot of the parallels and conclusions. Higgins and Massey were writing before there were a lot of translations available (Champollion translated the Rosetta Stone in 1822), and often were using their own interpretations of the scenes (rather than reading the text around it... because they couldn't.) Kuhn's Egyptian sources are Massey... so in essence you have only two originals there (both written before good lexicons were available)

Massey isn't well thought of:
www.tektonics.org...

Kuhn, frankly, makes things up, making a speculation and then treating it as solid fact. You can see this clearly in an original text of his about Genesis. :
www.thechristmyth.com...

Apologetics Ministeries are very critical of Harpur's sources:

No kidding. Thanks for the link.

Very nice bit of research you did! Kudos to you for your investigation.

Besides the Bible you need to read Alexander Hislop's The two babylons.It explains the similarities within mythologies. Christianity not being included. After the flood when Noah's children went thier own ways, Ham had been cursed because of his sin against Noah and he left to go to what is now Iraq. His son Cush married an evil witch who worshipped the stars and they started building the famous tower to heaven(ziggurat)When Cush died what's her name had a baby named nimrod whom she said was a reincarnation of Cush. She promptly married him. Thus you would see images of the "godess" with her little god on her lap. The religious leaders after the deluge even wore fish hats to symbolize thier status having survived the flood. There was a legend that Cush had been cut up and sent to the four corners of the the earth.

Originally posted by jimbo999

Which 'roman records' are these?

That was from something I'd read a few years ago. I have not found anything on the net about it yet. I'm looking through books that have been in boxes for years now so it may be in here somewhere. It may be wrong. I have to find it first. Books are still a better resource than the net but it can't be accessed imediately.

There is however, plenty of evidence to suggest the 'Jesus' myth is largely based on various pre-christian religeous cults of the day. Virgin births, baptisims, 'son's' of God', crusifiction/murder of said god, rising from the dead of said god etc...are ALL common themes in many pre-christian belief systems. Strange co-incidence huh?

J.

What I'm finding so far seems to be coming from not so good sources. There seems to be a lot of leaps of logic and outright filling in the blanks with an authors personal bias.

You can also see images of the Christ child in the ancient statues of Isis, Horus, and Osiris. Isis is holding the infant Horus on her lap with Osiris behind them.
The book about Horus got it all wrong about Horus. he has so many fabrications in there, it's not funny. I have been studying Greek and Egyptian mythology/history for over 40 years. I've never heard more of an incorrect description of Horus that by the author of this book. Sorry to disappoint.
Christianity was pieced together mostly by Paul, who interwove fragments of religion from Egyptian and Greek mythology and also Judaism.
Paganism came way before Christianity and the Catholic church in the early days did what Romans did in those days - not convert them, but to weave in aspects of the conquering land's mythology so that there woulnd't be many differences between the 2. It made it easier for the conquered people to assimilate into Roman culture.

I should have said that it was Rev. Alexander Hislop's book "the Two Babylons" written in the late nineteenth century, I think. It has a lot of archaelogical data. It opened my eyes as a christian to the roots of a lot of our extra-biblical traditions.

Originally posted by NJE777

Hi
I am the OP, but I didn't make the claims, Harpur did, I posted it to discuss it. My eyes popped out of my head when I read the book. It was news to me. I had never heard of it so was pretty

Sounds like I worded a post badly I realize this was your post and why you posted it became apparent after a bit.

Thanks for the other info. More to read.

There is a lot about this on Tektonics in regards to Hume. I think we are finding the same material and there seems to be plenty of it. I spent a couple of hours reading through Apologetics info sites yesterday. Now I need to look more at the other side.

It seems to me that there have been many people desperate to prove Jesus never lived. Desperate enough to fabricate historical facts and risk reputation and career. Why, would be an interesting question. Has proving the story of Jesus wrong become a Pseudo-Religion? It would appear it has. Part of the problem is the strong emotion and bias on both sides destroys credibility. It is a study based on hatred rather than a search for truth.

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
Actually, Horus was associated with the sky (not the sun) but commonly called "The Avenger," due to his battles with his uncle Set (the murderer of Horus' father, Osiris).

Actually we both are right - the original form of Horus was probably that of a sky god, known as "lord of the sky"; yet a natural outgrowth of his role as "lord of the sky" was his aspect as a sun god. Therefore, Horus was the god of the rising and setting sun, but more particularly the god of the east and the sunrise.

I have yet to find any real biblical canon that names Jesus' birthday as December 25th...Jesus was born before the adoption of the Georgian (or was it the Julian? I never could keep those two calendars straight

) Calendar system. The Winter Solstice was celebrated by the Keltoi (Celts) & was considered to be the beginning of the New Year, as the sun began to renew itself (when the daytime started getting longer, as you pointed out).

Winter Solstice was celebrated by almost EVERY civilization on this planet, since it represented the the margin of the battle between "Good vs Evil" - "Winter vs Summer" time, when the sun starts to descend again from the slow death in Winter. And ancient people did know how to do two things very well: to observe the SUN and to observe the STARS. And by comparing those two, they knew exactly when something in the cycle of the sun was happening.

Then again - if you are correct; then it only means, that the entire "cover-up" story of Jesus Christ was made up after his alleged life and death. Perhaps Jesus really was an ordinary man, who was considered for that time a revolutionary. Perhaps he had special healing powers. Perhaps he was a political leader of the tribes of Israel, living under occupation of Rome. Perhaps he was really only a man who died on a cross for the sins of his people - yet the Church made an ordinary man into a GOD, and combined his story with ancient Sun-God myths, by adjusting certain events in his life and making them Holy.

Any corellation here is sketchy at best...Using the stars of the nighttime is more common among the societies that used a lunar-based calendar, rather than a sun-based calendar.

Please read:

Orion

Orion a constellation often referred to as The Hunter, is a prominent constellation, one of the largest and perhaps the best-known and most conspicuous in the sky. Its brilliant stars are found on the celestial equator and are visible throughout the world, making this constellation universally recognized. In the northern hemisphere Orion is visible in the evening from November to April.

According to the most common contemporary imagery: Orion is standing next to the river Eridanus with his two hunting dogs Canis Major and Canis Minor, fighting Taurus the bull. Other prey of his, such as Lepus the hare, can be found nearby.

There are other contemporary names for Orion. In Australia, the belt and sword of Orion are sometimes called the Saucepan, because the stars of Orion's belt and sword resemble this kitchen utensil as seen from the southern hemisphere. Orion's Belt is called "The Three Kings" (or "The Magi") in some places.

Now take a ruler and draw a line through "The Three Kings" and the star Sirius and check out where it is pointing.

Thanks NJE777 for posting Harpur's sources!
.. and appreciate Bryd's comments that a few of them are worth checking into.
Really, I'm serious.. but there's so much out there now in the book market, one really does have to rely on suggestions from those who are 'in the know' on these topics before attempting to pick and choose which books to read.
Harpur though, seems worth reading to so thanks for starting up a thread on what was in his book!

Byrd,

Thanks for the links. I'm especially interested in the "Book of What is in the Duat." (same as book of the underworld?)

However, in more than one instance, Horus is depicted as Re with the Red disk on his head, surmounted by a uraeus. www.uwm.edu...
and in this instance, the person following him is wearing the double feathered crown but he is wearing the disk
upload.wikimedia.org...

And here's another
ascendingpassage.com...

Perhaps what you mean to say is his royal crown is not the disk? That he wears the disk when the occassion calls for him to represent it?

As far as Horus being older than Hathor, I'm not sure on that one, as there are Naqada cow goddess artifacts that appear to be representing Hathor not Bast.

[edit on 9-7-2007 by undo]

Well - I thought your first link of so-called 'trmendous references' (Tektonics) and I quote from the first article on the first page you linked to:

'(The author is a historian based at one the world's leading universities. He specialises in and is currently developing a publication record on ancient and modern myth.)'

Hmmm...a mysterious 'historian' with no name, who teaches at an unamed university. Hardly very credible really...it's simply a christian web site set up to de-bunk the above mentioned move/book 'Zeitgeist'. Really guys, this is a non-starter for a thread.....next please. J

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Ok, I have just read this on another thread...
This is the same source I relied upon. I am not discounting it, but just seems unusual. Off to check out the sources in the sources lol


[edit on 10-7-2007 by NJE777]

Originally posted by Byrd
Horus, by the way, doesn't wear a solar crown (Hathor does) but rather the atef-crown (double crown).

Which is also known as the "double-feather" crown...The feathers being representative of Ma'at, the goddess representing Truth & the Way of Order.

Originally posted by undo
And from the Amduat itself ("Book of the Underworld" translations of texts found on the walls of tombs), you can see that the dying sun becomes Ra/Re in the underworld, travels there, confronts his serpent enemy Apophis, and defeats him and emerges from the underworld as a scarab beetle. Set's not there and Horus doesn't die:

And every night, Apophis nearly wins until Bast (the Cat goddess) joins the fray at the last moment & kills Apophis. According to other Amduat texts, Bast is the only one who can defeat Apophis, but any further details would be too much "derailiing" on my part.

Originally posted by Byrd
Most are VERY aware of the history (and scholarly brawls thereof) in their fiends.

Because, Rosetta Stone aside, Egyptian Heiroglyphs are still not completely decyphered.

Originally posted by GeneralT.
There was a legend that Cush had been cut up and sent to the four corners of the the earth.

This sounds like what Set did to Osiris...But that was before Horus would have been born; One big difference between the two stories.

Souljah, this particular paragraph is in reference to the star map you imaged: Yes, Orion the Hunter would have been important to any early agraian society...Simply for the reason that most of them did not give up hunting immediately after developing agriculture. In the case of Ancient Egypt, the skills of agriculture came relatively late! The Nile Valley was so lush that they didn't need those skills for a long time! They were probably aware of Mesopotamia's use of agriculture, but it wasn't needed for Egypt to survive, so they didn't practice agriculture until populations grew large enough to begin tilling the ground. Even then, hunting remained as both a sport (for the wealthy) & a means to suppliment the diet (for those who weren't rich enough to call it a "sport"). However, the Egyptians still paid close attention to the passing of months (lunar cycles) as well as the stars; One of the prime ways they tracked the coming of the growing seasons was as much based upon the annual innudation of the Nile as much as the lunar cycle.

As I've already pointed out, Horus' father Osiris was the god of agriculture (as well as being the "king of the dead"). But the link between Horus & the sun was only for certain specific aspects of the sun...Not the sun itself.

Originally posted by undo
However, in more than one instance, Horus is depicted as Re with the Red disk on his head, surmounted by a uraeus.

You mention this as if it were an isolated instance in Egyptian religion...It's not.

There are many myth cycles where different gods merged their forms (& aspects) into an amalgamated-type of entity. It was a common theme in Egyptian religious cycles because all deities were really nothing more than more minor aspects (ie: the decendants) of the first Egyptian god, Atum (the culmination of creation). Since they believed that all of the other gods originated from Atum, then all gods were merely minor manifestations of Atum. It was this common origin that allowed the gods to merge with each other...A common one was Horus & Ra (sometimes the sun was called "the Eye of Horus"). Horus was also called Harakhte (Horus of the Horizon), which was also linked with the Sphinx at Giza, because it looks always at the eastern horizon & sitting in a position to "guard" the Pyramids.

In short, it was very common for Egyptians to link pretty much any combination of gods together to explain ther view of cosmology & natural phenomenon. And it should also be noted that, when gods merged, Egyptian artwork would usually depict one of the gods wearing the crown of the other, graphically depicting the merging of divine aspects.

[edit on 10-7-2007 by MidnightDStroyer]

Even if Horus was the SKY GOD that does not change the many similarities between Jesus Christ and Horus at all. There are so many, that you can think twice, on what Christianity was founded and based - on pagan rituals and myths, which they later claimed to be Heretics and burned them in many inquisitions across the globe.

50 Similarities Between Jesus and Horus

Comparison of some life events of Horus and Jesus

Jesus as a Reincarnation of Horus

Excuse me, but it looks like everybody is worshiping the SUN!

Which only means, that certain religions, which preach, that "My God is Better then Yours" are designed to keep us apart and not united as one Mankind under one Sun.

Originally posted by undo
Byrd,

Thanks for the links. I'm especially interested in the "Book of What is in the Duat." (same as book of the underworld?)

Yes.

However, in more than one instance, Horus is depicted as Re with the Red disk on his head, surmounted by a uraeus. www.uwm.edu...
and in this instance, the person following him is wearing the double feathered crown but he is wearing the disk
upload.wikimedia.org...

And here's another
ascendingpassage.com...

Agreed... but remember that ancient Egypt had a 3,000 year history and during that time the concept of the powers of the gods (and their stories as well) changed.

And the style of crowns depicted changed over time, too.

Perhaps what you mean to say is his royal crown is not the disk? That he wears the disk when the occassion calls for him to represent it?

What he wears depends on when the portrait was painted and what aspect of Horus is being shown.

As far as Horus being older than Hathor, I'm not sure on that one, as there are Naqada cow goddess artifacts that appear to be representing Hathor not Bast.

Would love to read about this... perhaps in Ancient Civ, so we don't derail this thread any further?

Soljah, these sites are the same information that was originally cited.

Originally posted by Souljah
50 Similarities Between Jesus and Horus

Comparison of some life events of Horus and Jesus

Jesus as a Reincarnation of Horus

Excuse me, but it looks like everybody is worshiping the SUN!

The information in those links isn't true. Google for sites on Egyptology and Horus and you'll see that (as I said in a longwinded post) every single point is wrong.

Originally posted by Souljah
Even if Horus was the SKY GOD that does not change the many similarities between Jesus Christ and Horus at all.

I have never tried to discount any of the similarities between them...I've merely been emphasizing the differences so far. When you take into consideration that Egyptian religion was so...shall we say, flexible...It would be fairly easy for nearly anyone to find nearly any type of superficial similarities.

Originally posted by Souljah
Excuse me, but it looks like everybody is worshiping the SUN!

I never said that Egyptians didn't worship the sun...I only indicated that Egyptians didn't worship the sun exclusively. Sure, the religion put a lot of emphasis on the sun, but what else would you expect of a culture that lives surrounded by desert?
The Egyptian religion respected all aspects of the natural world & human nature. For example, most people that think Set was linked with the aspect of Evil, that's not entirely correct; Set was closer to the aspect of Chaos than of Evil. One of the most important aspects that Egytians belived in was the triumph of Order over Chaos...Order was the aspect of Ma'at (as I mentioned before).

The primary religious duty that Pharoah had to perform was to keep the forces of Chaos out of Egypt...They believed that the natural world was full of Chaos & only Egypt was safe. This is one of the primary religious reasons why Egypt sought to conquer its closest neighbors...To act as "buffers" against the Chaos from entering Egypt itself.

Originally posted by Souljah
Which only means, that certain religions, which preach, that "My God is Better then Yours" are designed to keep us apart and not united as one Mankind under one Sun.

One of the reasons that the Egyptian pantheon grew so large (literally hundreds of deities) during the course of the Dynastic Age (3,000+ years, as Byrd pointed out) is because they also incorporated deities & myth cycles from foreign religions too!
Just as Roman Catholicism & Christianity "borrowed" from the cultures they encountered, so did Egypt. However, unlike the Catholics & Christians did, I have found no evidence that Egypt used such "borrowings" in order to aid in religious conversion of foreign cultures! Even when Egypt conquered neighboring nations (by military might), they respected the foreign religions, absorbing them into their own pantheon & cosmology.
In short, Egypt was much more concerned with the unity (ie: maintaining Ma'at) you speak of, while most other religions were practicing dominance of religion...

[edit on 10-7-2007 by MidnightDStroyer]