Christianity is based on Egyptian Myths - Jesus Christ is Horus

Originally posted by EricD




Ok, I realize that Clearskies and I are going to disagree about this but I encourage anyone that is interested in this topic to PLEASE look into Hislop and his poor logic, unsupported assumptions and questionable academics.

For those interested, here is a well reasoned refutation from someone that once was an adherent to Hislops religious paradigms:


www.ralphwoodrow.org...

Here are a few more sites that discuss the flaws of Hislop:

www.tektonics.org...

www.geocities.com...

homepages.paradise.net.nz...



Eric

Eric,
what these catholic apologetic sites don't say is that when the bible points out in Revelation 17 who the "whore" is, It is very specific.
All these people(Ralphwoodrow,etc..)say is that Rev Alexander Hislop's
findings are incorrect because we could blindly apply those criteria to any establishment.
That does not work.
Archaeological finds to date back up The Two Babylons implicitly.

Originally posted by Clearskies

Eric,
what these catholic apologetic sites don't say is that when the bible points out in Revelation 17 who the "whore" is, It is very specific.
All these people(Ralphwoodrow,etc..)say is that Rev Alexander Hislop's
findings are incorrect because we could blindly apply those criteria to any establishment.
That does not work.
Archaeological finds to date back up The Two Babylons implicitly.

First off, I apologize for getting close to a 'thread hijack', but there is a link between Hislop and the concept of possible paganism in accepted forms of Christianity.

Onto Clearskies point:
1) Three of the four links were from sites that were not even Catholic, let alone Catholic apologists.

2) The problem of Hislop's lack of causality for his assumptions is NOT the only flaw in his works.

3) Archeology does NOT back up Hislop's claims. There are plenty of chronological errors as well as misinterpretations of language and symbol.

4) Who the 'whore of Babylon' is in Revelation is one of the most debated topics in Bible study and eschatology.


Check out the sites that I posted for yourself.

Eric

I love it when people just say something like

History does not Prove XYZ!

And then they just leave it at that.... wow.. I'm convinced now.

EricD,
The "whore" of rev. 17, sits on seven hills( Rome, Italy is known as the city of 7 hills ), is arrayed in scarlet and purple (the official colors of the catholic church). She has a cup of the blood of the martyrs of Jesus in her hand (the catholic church has killed more believers in Jesus than anyone in history and will do more during the Great tribulation, the setting for Revelation 17) She is dripping gold and jewels (the "church" is the singlemost richest organization in the world) She commits fornication with the rulers of this world( The vatican has sided with every bigwig tyrant to date that I know of.)
Reverand Alexander Hislop wrote his book accurately over 150 years ago

God meant for us to understand the Bible.

Again, my apologies if anyone thinks that this is too tangential to the op.

I have broken down Clearskies points into 5 sections so that each could be addressed on it's own.

Originally posted by Clearskies
EricD,
1 The "whore" of rev. 17, sits on seven hills( Rome, Italy is known as the city of 7 hills ),

2 is arrayed in scarlet and purple (the official colors of the catholic church).

3 She has a cup of the blood of the martyrs of Jesus in her hand (the catholic church has killed more believers in Jesus than anyone in history and will do more during the Great tribulation, the setting for Revelation 17)

4 She is dripping gold and jewels (the "church" is the singlemost richest organization in the world)

5 She commits fornication with the rulers of this world( The vatican has sided with every bigwig tyrant to date that I know of.)

1) Catholics don't recognize 'Rome' as a seat of religious power. The city of Rome is irrelevant spiritually for Catholics. What you are looking for is Vatican City. Vatican City sits on one hill.
And speaking of 'hills':

(from a website, don't want to take credit for anothers work)
This argument is based on Revelation 17:9, which states that the woman sits on seven mountains.

The Greek word in this passage is horos. Of the sixty-five occurrences of this word in the New Testament, only three are rendered "hill" by the King James Version. The remaining sixty-two are translated as "mountain" or "mount." Modern Bibles have similar ratios. If the passage states that the Whore sits on "seven mountains," it could refer to anything. Mountains are common biblical symbols, often symbolizing whole kingdoms (cf. Ps. 68:15; Dan. 2:35; Amos 4:1, 6:1; Obad. 8–21). The Whore’s seven mountains might be seven kingdoms she reigns over, or seven kingdoms with which she has something in common.

The number seven may be symbolic also, for it often represents completeness in the Bible. If so, the seven mountains might signify that the Whore reigns over all earth’s kingdoms.

Even if we accept that the word horos should be translated literally as "hill" in this passage, it still does not narrow us down to Rome. Other cities are known for having been built on seven hills as well.

2) Scarlet and purple are not the official colors of the Catholic Church. They are also not the dominant colors of Catholic clerical vestments. A symbolic understanding of those colors would lead one to believe that purple is for royalty and that scarlet is for the blood of martyrs. Not the 'state colors' of some organization.

3) Can you provide any evidence for your claim that the Catholic Church has killed more Christians than any other organization in history? What about international communism? Can that count as an 'organization'? Do you have any facts or numbers to back this up?

4) Where are you getting your data on the wealth of the Catholic Church? The Church often runs at a deficit, is not the wealthiest organization in the world and the Vatican proper has an annual budget the size of the ArchDiocese of Chicago.

5) Would you care to either rethink your statement about who the Church has supported or provide a list of 'bigwig tyrants' that the Vatican has sided with? Do I really need to list tyrants that were not supported by the Catholic Church?


Eric

[edit on 11-8-2007 by EricD]

EricD,


You should make a thread on this topic. I've done alot of research in this area and would be interested in discussing it with you. You seem to have another viewpoint I can incorporate into my deliberations on the subject and perhaps further your understanding of other possibilities, as well.

[edit on 11-8-2007 by undo]

Originally posted by EricD

1) Catholics don't recognize 'Rome' as a seat of religious power. The city of Rome is irrelevant spiritually for Catholics. What you are looking for is Vatican City. Vatican City sits on one hill.
And speaking of 'hills':
Eric,
is not Vatican city in Rome?

2) Scarlet and purple are not the official colors of the Catholic Church. They are also not the dominant colors of Catholic clerical vestments. A symbolic understanding of those colors would lead one to believe that purple is for royalty and that scarlet is for the blood of martyrs. Not the 'state colors' of some organization.

The color for bishops is purple and for cardinals, it is red.

3) Can you provide any evidence for your claim that the Catholic Church has killed more Christians than any other organization in history? What about international communism? Can that count as an 'organization'? Do you have any facts or numbers to back this up?

The dark ages, the inquisition, anytime the oficial church reigned, it killed those that opposed it.

4) Where are you getting your data on the wealth of the Catholic Church? The Church often runs at a deficit, is not the wealthiest organization in the world and the Vatican proper has an annual budget the size of the ArchDiocese of Chicago.

Give me a break, who's numbers are those?
The alms?, during the inquisition rich jews were killed and
thier property was confiscated, adding to the coffer.
Charlemagne, Napoleon, Queen Mary of Scots, Hitler and Mussolini all had an "understanding" with Rome, making the church partners in crime.

Do I really need to list tyrants that were not supported by the Catholic Church?

Yes, thank you.

There are a total of 16 Christs thus far Krishna, Horus, Jesus, Mithras, Bachus, Dyonisus, Adonis, Odin... etc

16 x 2= 32,000 that's about the precession of our sun around the galactic sun.

[edit on 11-8-2007 by Horus8]

Originally posted by Horus8
There are a total of 16 Christs thus far Krishna, Horus, Jesus, Mithras, Bachus, Dyonisus, Adonis, Odin... etc

16 x 2= 32,000 that's about the precession of our sun around the galactic sun.

[edit on 11-8-2007 by Horus8]

1 true Christ and the rest put in place to keep you from seeing Him. Horus is Tammuz of Babylon.........as are the others.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by Horus8
There are a total of 16 Christs thus far Krishna, Horus, Jesus, Mithras, Bachus, Dyonisus, Adonis, Odin... etc

16 x 2= 32,000 that's about the precession of our sun around the galactic sun.

[edit on 11-8-2007 by Horus8]

1 true Christ and the rest put in place to keep you from seeing Him. Horus is Tammuz of Babylon.........as are the others.

Did you include Meher Baba and Kut-Hu-Mi in that as well? Don't forget the new guy... Lord Maitreya.

Originally posted by liquidself
I am no expert in these matters, though I tend toward the view that most hero-god types have many simularities, Christ and Horus being no exception.

Actually, there's huge differences in the two if you go to the real myths and not the ones promoted by someone who picked three sources who made up their information.

They may not have exactly the same particulars but in the myth as a whole they generally have the same role as a figure of hope and redemption (which I think is the genuine point of these kinds of creation/creator myths).

Horus isn't a redeemer. In fact, the only religion that needed a redeemer was Christianity. None of the others did. Most of the other religions today do not have a redeemer god.

Listened to the lastest Strieber show and the featured guest mentioned in passing that Osiris and Horus are actually not seperate entities but that Horus could be seen as the ressurection OF Osirus in a new body - which seems more in keeping of what I understand to be the majority of myth-making historically i.e. shamanistic myths of the dis-memberment and re-making of the hero-figure.

In the first place, the guest didn't do even basic research on the deities and got a lot of facts wrong. In the second place, the Egyptian religion isn't shamanistic in any form.

Egyptian myth in particular has many resonances with shamanistic myth-making, and I have often wondered if it were not a fairly direct depiction of much older shamanistic worldview, esp the fact that Egyption gods have direct animal features, typical of the totemistic kind of view.

It shows about as little connection to shamanistic traditions as Christianity. In other words, there were some practices by a few individuals that if you squezed the text just right and interpreted some things in a way that's not really supported, you could say it was shamanistic.

But there's no "pharoah talking directly to the spirits of the world" which is the key element in shamanism. When you get into "talking to gods" and "being a god" then that isn't shamanism -- it's religion.

Originally posted by Byrd
So that means that Tammuz is George Washington. And Nimrod is Harry Potter.

In your lifetime you should understand who Tammuz, the reincarned Nimrod is. Sadly it will be too late then.

I'm not convinced. I don't think anyone else is, either.

Those that seek.........find. Those that don't....don't.

I've read both, and in fact have read both Jeremiah in its entirety and Isaiah in its entirety.

There is a difference between reading and understanding.

That's not an ancient text, I'm afraid. That's a modern interpretation and his "ancient sources" are Josephus who was writing about 80-100 AD. My challenge was "point to something written before 1000 BC that does not relate to the Bible that says the two are one."

You have put the challenge on me, when really it's your challenge. I have come to you with news that your spouse is cheating. You have said show me as I want to catch my spouse in the act of being unfaithful.

I respond: your spouse is the master of deceit. Your spouse has covered the tracks of this event. You're going to have to be a detective and put the facts together.

You respond: Well, if we can't catch my spouse cheating, then it never happened.

TRANSLATION:
We can find plenty of facts that Osiris is Zeus

We can find facts that Bel is Zeus.

We can find facts that Ahura Mazda is considered Zeus.

How can Zeus be all of these. There is a conection for the person that wants to see.

Or sit in blindness saying I have not caught my spouse in the act of cheating......therefore it did not happen.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix


You have put the challenge on me, when really it's your challenge. I have come to you with news that your spouse is cheating. You have said show me as I want to catch my spouse in the act of being unfaithful.

I respond: your spouse is the master of deceit. Your spouse has covered the tracks of this event. You're going to have to be a detective and put the facts together.

You respond: Well, if we can't catch my spouse cheating, then it never happened.

TRANSLATION:
We can find plenty of facts that Osiris is Zeus

We can find facts that Bel is Zeus.

We can find facts that Ahura Mazda is considered Zeus.

How can Zeus be all of these. There is a conection for the person that wants to see.

Or sit in blindness saying I have not caught my spouse in the act of cheating......therefore it did not happen.

Sun Matrix, I think you are overlooking a huge piece of this syncretic puzzle. The fact that the same type of dieties pop up in different cultures doesn't necessarily mean that they were influenced by eachother at all.

The archetypes of the Unconscious, as described by Carl Jung, occur the same in completely independent cultures who never had any knowledge or indirect influence with eachother. There is always a heros journey, and there are always the same roles along the way, although called many different things.

This is why it was so easy for Catholics to syncretize South American Religions to their own, as they only had to change the names of the dieties.

Remember the resurrection story where adherents are told to eat of the dieties (or heros) body was told in North American tribes long before Europeans ever stepped foot on the soil.

What I find fascinating is that Cherokee tribes actually had the concept of "The middle way" and "Right Action" which we find in both Christianity and Buddhism.

Originally posted by Quazga

Sun Matrix, I think you are overlooking a huge piece of this syncretic puzzle. The fact that the same type of dieties pop up in different cultures doesn't necessarily mean that they were influenced by eachother at all.

The archetypes of the Unconscious, as described by Carl Jung, occur the same in completely independent cultures who never had any knowledge or indirect influence with eachother. There is always a heros journey, and there are always the same roles along the way, although called many different things.

Hi Quazga,
I suggest you read the story of the Tower of Babel and the scattering of the people across the earth. Why are there pyramids everywhere? You might research the true meaning of the pyramid.

This is why it was so easy for Catholics to syncretize South American Religions to their own, as they only had to change the names of the dieties.

Exactly my point. I could not have put it any better. The church of Rome is Mystery Babylon. The source of these false gods is Babylon. I suggest you study up on Constantine, Sol Invictus and the origin of the Catholic Church.

What I find fascinating is that Cherokee tribes actually had the concept of "The middle way" and "Right Action" which we find in both Christianity and Buddhism.

I'm lost here. I'm not sure what you are talking about. Got any suggestions? or can you point me in a direction to look.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Hi Quazga,
I suggest you read the story of the Tower of Babel and the scattering of the people across the earth. Why are there pyramids everywhere? You might research the true meaning of the pyramid.

I'm well acquatined with the legend that was originally told in Sumerian Myths. Keep in mind that it was the original "Story of Punishment". Babylon was a very prosperous city which was eventually overthrown by Sargon. This caused a huge period of rebuilding reminiscent of the dark ages later on. And because the ziggurat which is mentioned was called "The Gate of God", it acquired it's mythical connotations.

But I digress...

Every primitive culture will exhibit similar products as every other culture. Just because there are Pyramids everywhere does not mean that they all came from direct influence between the cultures.

There are knives everywhere too, but we don't automatically assume some great transmigrational principle to explain it. Heck even Sea Otters use knife like obecjts to pry open their food. Humans are no different, just more complex.

I don't blame you for your assumptions though. The human mind spends most of it's time recognizing patterns and associating meaning with them. This tends to work enough of the time that the behavior still exists, but it's also often wrong. Kinda like having a lucky pair of socks you always wear when you give a lecture, because you happened to do amazing one time, and your brain attributed it to the socks.

Don't blindly attribute pyramids in every culture with direct influences between them.

Now, I will say that there are some wild theories which some have proposed to explain the similarities between disparate cultures as observed in Monkeys. The term for this is Morphogenetic Resonance. Commonly referred to as the 100th monkey phenomena...

See here en.wikipedia.org...

But I tend to believe it has more to do with the fact that similar systems in similar environments, with similar goals, produce similar results. But then again, I always gravitate toward the simplest of answers.

Originally posted by Quazga
Every primitive culture will exhibit similar products as every other culture. Just because there are Pyramids everywhere does not mean that they all came from direct influence between the cultures.

There are knives everywhere too, but we don't automatically assume some great transmigrational principle to explain it. Heck even Sea Otters use knife like obecjts to pry open their food. Humans are no different, just more complex.

Quazga

Please.....Stop........reveiw........I said there are huge stone pyramids everywhere that take thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of man hours to build.

I didn't say everyone was wearing socks to keep their feet warm.

Examine the facts and draw conclusions.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by Quazga
Every primitive culture will exhibit similar products as every other culture. Just because there are Pyramids everywhere does not mean that they all came from direct influence between the cultures.

There are knives everywhere too, but we don't automatically assume some great transmigrational principle to explain it. Heck even Sea Otters use knife like obecjts to pry open their food. Humans are no different, just more complex.

Quazga

Please.....Stop........reveiw........I said there are huge stone pyramids everywhere that take thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of man hours to build.

I didn't say everyone was wearing socks to keep their feet warm.

Examine the facts and draw conclusions.

You specifically asked "Why are there Pyramids everywhere?"

I merely gave alot of other reasons than the one you implied in context. Then I got sarcastic with you. You never mentioned man hours.. you only mentioned "Read about Tower of Babel... and Why are there Pyramids everywhere"

If I was supposed to read something else into that statement, I'm not sure what.

Regardless, No matter how much you read into the coincidences between cultures and religions, you cannot undeniably assert that it was directly related to influence between them. In some instances, it was, and in others it wasn't. Thats really my point in a nutshell.

btw, did you happen to check out the Morpogenetic Resonance stuff?

it's pretty wild, and I think you'd like it

Hello Byrd,

you have made some good points, which I would like to respond to:

"Actually, there's huge differences in the two if you go to the real myths and not the ones promoted by someone who picked three sources who made up their information."

I can make mistakes perfectly well on my own, thank you. I actually am not in any way espousing "...someone who picked three sources..."

"Horus isn't a redeemer. In fact, the only religion that needed a redeemer was Christianity. None of the others did. Most of the other religions today do not have a redeemer god."

Perhaps my choice of the term "redeemer" was somewhat loaded for this discussion (too Christian perhaps?)- I feel that whether or not a particular god/goddess is a redeemer to be a somewhat subjective choice. Perhaps inspirational is better - I have always found the Horus figure to be fascinating. As I said at the beginning , I am no expert on these matters. The avenging of Osirus by Horus is a story that gives me hope, and I am sure it gave hope to Egyptians at the time, for (perhaps cosmic?)justice. I have never bought into the "Christ saved us from our sins" thing either, the redemption involved for me would be that brought on through example.

"In the first place, the guest didn't do even basic research on the deities and got a lot of facts wrong. In the second place, the Egyptian religion isn't shamanistic in any form. "

You could be right about the guest, though he seemed fairly erudite to me. I am pleased that you had listened to the show. I wish to point out that I never referred to the Egyption religion as shamanism itself, but rather as a form of myth-making (and myths arent defined as something thats not true either) which has an obvious relevance to religion from a historical perspective.

It shows about as little connection to shamanistic traditions as Christianity. In other words, there were some practices by a few individuals that if you squezed the text just right and interpreted some things in a way that's not really supported, you could say it was shamanistic.
But there's no "pharoah talking directly to the spirits of the world" which is the key element in shamanism. When you get into "talking to gods" and "being a god" then that isn't shamanism -- it's religion.

Hm, why so rigid? A case could be made for Christianities connections to shamanism.I am sure you are aware of the John Allegro book The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross. I dont mean to imply that old Egyptian beliefs are identical to shamanism, I merely found that traces exist in the old religion that seem to indicate an even older belief system - which would probably have its roots in shamanism - religion didnt appear out of nowhere, it evolved. The strong use of animal traits in the Egyptian pantheon is striking, and impossible to dismiss when you are aware of how much the animal is valued within shamanistic traditions. It is not inconcievable that these gods evolved from animal dieties or totems of some sort.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by Horus8
There are a total of 16 Christs thus far Krishna, Horus, Jesus, Mithras, Bachus, Dyonisus, Adonis, Odin... etc

16 x 2= 32,000 that's about the precession of our sun around the galactic sun.

[edit on 11-8-2007 by Horus8]

1 true Christ and the rest put in place to keep you from seeing Him. Horus is Tammuz of Babylon.........as are the others.

Actually the Adonis myth is older the Tamuz.

Originally posted by Horus8

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by Horus8
There are a total of 16 Christs thus far Krishna, Horus, Jesus, Mithras, Bachus, Dyonisus, Adonis, Odin... etc

16 x 2= 32,000 that's about the precession of our sun around the galactic sun.

[edit on 11-8-2007 by Horus8]

1 true Christ and the rest put in place to keep you from seeing Him. Horus is Tammuz of Babylon.........as are the others.

Actually the Adonis myth is older the Tamuz.

Actually Tammuz is not a myth but a real person. BTW, Greek Adonis is Babylonian Tammuz, as is Egyptian Horus. Two minutes of research should prove this.