Islam....why israel?

Greeetings,

I very rarely post here, I do however lurk occaissionally and find many subjects of interest on ATS. I try not to but in too much. But I did have to respond to this statement:

To quote Sky Watcher:

"You ask why Israel. Because most of the Jews deny the divinity of Jesus. Yes I said Period. It is the ultimate slap in the face of god and he is teaching them and the rest of us a lesson. "

I must respectfully disagree with this assertion. I realize most of the pro-Israel members which have posted here (many of which make very valid and accurate points about the history of the M.E., etc.) are christians, and that's good and fine as far as I'm concerned, we all have the right to our own spiritual persuits/opinions. However, I think it's completely myopic and biased to state that because the religious Jews of the world did not accept Christ as their Moshiach, that they are now being punished, and that's why the Muslims hate the Jews. I personally do not believe that the Jewish population of the world is under *any* obligation to cave in to Christianity and it's assertions about Christ being G-d, or the validity of the Trinity.

Just for the record, I was raised as a fundamentalist/evangelical christian, and I remember hearing as a child from the pastor at the church that "Because the Jews are God's chosen people, they will be spared, even though they don't accept Christ." Now I'm not saying that this man's opinion is a valid one by any stretch, but I've heard similar types of statements from fundamentalist christians in the past-- of course paradoxically some of the most "jew-hating" people I've ever met were fundamentalist christians, so I'm not sure that any clear conclusion can be gleaned from these postulations.

What I will say, is that I am not a christian, I have made it one of the focuses of my life's work to study comparitive religion (mostly out of the sincere dis-satisfaction I felt being raised in a fundamentalist christian environment). That being said, as a previous poster here stated (sorry, I forget which one, but it was a good statement) about how Islam is the Johnny-come-lately of the Abrahamic faiths. I think in a similar way this must also be stated (sorry christians) about Christianity itself )although I guess the x-tians beat the muslims to the punch a bit in this regard). The Torah came first, and it's oral traditions and laws, Jesus was one of many Jews who stood up and procalimed himself Moshiach. Whether or not you think he was/is the actual "Messiah" the point cannot be denied that Judaism came first, and personally when it comes to any matter, particularly one like this where we are comparing the so-called "Abrahamic Faiths" I prefer to go to the original source.

Although I may disagree with some of the assertions of my christian bretheren here on this board, I do appreciate the statements you are making for the most part. I think it's important not to get hung up on religious tennants because clearly there are a lot of differing opinions within the religious sphere no matter what your affiliation.

Just my two shekels worth-
Hex23

Originally posted by dbates

As for the hate itself, I chalk up most of it to jealousy, envy, and spite. I don't see any other reason. Jews picked up the broken down car the Arabs left on the side of the road, fixed it up, painted it. Now the Arabs want their car back. Boo hoo!


[edit on 10-7-2007 by dbates]

I think that

RAW DEMONIC PRIDE AS WELL AS SIMPLE HUMAN PRIDE is a major driving force, as well.

Given that Islam's founder was pressured by his cohorts to use the religious angle to energize folks to aid in wars of conquest in the name of religion; given his co-opting a demonic moon god to call their god . . . the demonic angle needs to be seriously considered by anyone wanting to know the facts and truly deny ignorance about the forces and motivations involved.

The children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob represent God's chosen characters to show His glory through. Not because they are so wonderful--they've proven to be extremely fickle, rebellious, contrary, arrogant etc. and God has disciplined them repeatedly accordingly. And, He's scheduled to do so at least another very severe time in these END TIMES during the GREAT TRIBULATION . . .

when the globalist government seeks yet again to totally destroy them.

Satan is interested in destroying particularly the children of Israel as his main way of kicking sand in God's eyes for God kicking satan out of heaven and going to strip him of all his powers and lock him away. Satan loves to destroy all humans as God's favorite creation--but particularly so the children of Israel because of God having chosen them for His purposes.

Satan is well able to wind up human pride in Muslims; jealousy etc. Demons are real and demonic influences on individuals and groups are real.

reply to post by blueyedevil666


Jesus appears in many religions,but always as a prophet,not the son of god.Muhammed was a prophet,he never claimed he could work miracles.

To say the Islam faith is evil shows complete and utter ignorance! It wasn't the Muslims who started the crusades,but the Christians! Saying that though,both religions are guilty of having followers who have corrupted holy scriptures for their own purpose,which usually leads to violence and suffering.And if you think only the Qu'ran contains bloodshed,how about these....


"""And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter.""" (I Samuel 6:19)

"""Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.""" (Numbers 31:16-18)

""The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.""" (Exodus 15:3)

"""Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.""" (Luke 12:51-53)

"""Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.""" (Psalms 137:9, KJV)

"""Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.""" (Judges 19:24-25)


Your a Utd fan,so somewhere in your brain you have an ounce of intelligence! I suggest you use it! Muslims are not your enemy.Your enemy are those that are brainwashing you to think like that!

As for the Qu'ran agreeing with the rights of the Holy Land,it should be noted that in general the Qu'ran and Hadith make a distinction between "Children of Israel" and "Jews". This distinction reflects the history of those two terms.

The term "Israel" or "Children of Israel" refers to the twelve sons of Jacob and their descendants. Jews almost never referred to themselves collectively as "Jews" until after the 13th century. In the Bible, Prayer Book and Talmud they call themselves "Children of Israel", "Children of Jacob", "Israel", etc. but never "Jews". The word "Jews" derives from the Roman term "Judea" which described roughly the area allocated to the tribe of Judah including Jerusalem. More specifically it refers to the militant zealots who fought against Rome. According to Josephus, these zealots belonged to a Temple Cult at odds with the Rabbinical Jewish authorities, and a portion of which were Idumean converts to Judaism. In this sense the "Jews" or more properly "Judeans" meant militants. New Testament references to "Jews" follow this pattern, for example Jesus was labeled as "King of the Jews", i.e. "King of the militants", not "King of Israel". After the Islamic conquest "Children of Israel" came to imply the Jewish people who kept the Divinely given commandments, and the "Jews" as those who abandoned or rejected them.

It also has to be taken into account that the Holy Land,up until the creation of modern Israel,was Muslim land for about 700/800 years! Then,during & after WW2 a huge influx of Jews headed there,and 1000's of Muslims were displaced,hence the subsequent and continuous troubles of people fighting for their homes.Wouldn't you if you had lost everything?
If the European Union decided that half of American land should be given back to the Native American's would you be happy about that? I don't think so!

If you want to learn about Islam learn from a Muslim,not a Christian and definatly not a politician!

reply to post by dbates


Muhammad is regarded by Muslims as the last great messenger in a series of prophets,they do not believe that he was the creator of a new religion,but the restorer of the original,uncorrupted monotheistic faith of Adam,Abraham and others.

reply to post by dbates



How can i survey of a country such as Palestine be in any way accurate?

reply to post by magicmushroom


Thanks for showing us the figures.I think most people don't even know about those who have lost their homes,they seem to think that Palestine was empty before the creation of Israel.


(to blueeyeddevil666)

Look, here's where i stand on the whole thing: First of all, right off the bat, Muslims are simply too late in the 'monotheistic' game, johnny-come-lately's, before this they were a nomadic band of paganistic desert dwellers ultimately banded together, much like china back in the day and england, by a war-mongering leader by the name of Mohammmad, spread by threat of death, the fanatic heretical faith spread like wildfire.

In Islam the problem is accentuated because the Ruler of a Muslim country is at the same time the Political and Religious leader... starting with Muhammed himself who personally fought many wars to defend and expand Islam, and of course he is the model for all the Muslims... and because the final aim of Islam is to conquer the whole world for Allah... by peaceful means, or by war, as started by the Prophet himself. Empires of Islam.

Er,what??

Ignoring the slur on English and Chinese "pagan" beliefs,i have to ask,do you actually know anything about the life of Muhammed?
He was born in Mecca,a thriving city of much land,trade and wealth.His first revelations happened at Mecca and thats where he gathered his first followers.Of course this belief lay in opposition from the Gods of Mecca,and upset the Jews because they didn't see him as a prophet of Abraham.(kinda like how they didn't believe Jesus was the son of god.)Jewish opposition "may well have been for political as well as religious reasons".On religious grounds, the Jews were skeptical of the possibility of a non-Jewish prophet,and also had concerns about possible incompatibilities between the Qur'an and their own scriptures.The Qur'an's response regarding the possibility of a non-Jew being a prophet was that Abraham was not a Jew. The Qur'an also stated that it was "restoring the pure monotheism of Abraham which had been corrupted in various, clearly specified, ways by Jews and Christians".

F.E. Peters, a western scholar of Islam, states that Muhammad's treatment of Jews of Medina was essentially political being prompted by what Muhammad read as treasonous and not some transgression of the law of God.Peters adds that Muhammad was possibly emboldened by his military successes and also wanted to push his advantage. Economical motivations according to Peters also existed since the poorness of the Meccan migrants was a source of concern for Muhammad.Peters argues that Muhammad's treatment of the Jews of Medina was "quite extraordinary", "matched by nothing in the Qur'an", and is "quite at odds with Muhammad's treatment of the Jews he encountered outside Medina."

What happens next is,(and after migrating to Medina),being economically uprooted and with no available profession besides that of arms, the Muslim migrants turned to raiding Meccan caravans for their livelihood, thus initiating armed conflict between the Muslims and Mecca.Open conflict started in 625 and ended in 630 with the conquest of Mecca.Muhammed died 2 years later.
Historians generally agree that Islamic social reforms in areas such as social security, family structure, slavery and the rights of women and children improved on what was present in existing Arab society.For an example and more detailed look at early Islamic reforms,click on the link below.



The war Muhammed took part in were to do with Mecca only.Problems started after his death.As in Christianity,Islam ended up breaking apart because of men who wanted to rule and because of men who interpreted the words of Muhammed in a different way.

The main problem in the "Islamic" world today,is that it has suffered a role reversal with west.In medieval times the west lacked technology,learning and knowledge,and was blinded by ignorance.People were controlled by the church.Everything the church didn't like was the work of the devil.All other religions were evil.The Muslims were savages,etc.But the Muslims weren't savages.They lived in countries with glorious histories.They had knowledge of the stars,of irrigation,of sewers etc.They were tolerant of other religions,(until the crusades)male and female children were taught about life and faith,women could work etc etc.
Now things have changed in some,not all Muslim countries.Things have reversed themselves.But in the west we get so much propaganda concerning these countries.Saudi Arabia has strict rules for women,we get told they can't work,yet many of the news presenters on Al Jazeera are women! Look at Afghanistan before the Taliban got into power and you will see a vastly different country to how it is today!!
It should also be remembered that the "extreme" Muslims don't hate the west just because its the west,its because for many years(Britain longer than the US) we have been interfering with these countries way of life!!

It's purely political, nothing to do with ancient religion. Goes like this:

Israel displaces Palestinians (Mix of Christians, Muslims, Jew)

Palestinians don't like this (war)

Fatah party, led by Arafat, start to decline after his death

Hamas (muslim group) unite the disjointed palestinians (for the most part) and continue the struggle against the oppressive Israel.


Thats it in a nutshell. Islamic radicals just happen to make good fighters.

The reason the Muslims hate the Jews in Israel is because the Muslims have owned the land throughout history and after World War II, the allies gave the country to the Jews as reparation for the Holocaust. We essentially kicked out the Palestinians and put the Jews there. If I were them, I'd hate us too.

Subcomandante pretty much put the whole situation in a nutshell.

The real problem (to me at least) is the current conditions of the Palestinian people. They have to endure checkpoints, I.D. cards, bulldozing of their homes, the military presence...etc.

The current governmental powers that control Israel is the true problem, not the people. I mean, Israel has a lot to explain for: Them being the #1 violator of U.N. Resolutions, Deir Yassin, the greater value of Jewish blood over anything else, racial vengeance...etc.

reply to post by mike_b


Your post is in direct contradiction of the post of the moderator of ATS, mine also.
You can read it on the first page of this thread.
Again the moderator job is to moderate the ATS world and not the whole wide world…thanks god for that!
The Moderator had picked up some news paper clip dated from 26 JUNE 1880 where Rev WJ Stacey writes to the London Times of the deplorable conditions of Palestine.
First of all this paper clip was taken from a website that for sure is pro Israel, it is like trying to find out how many people died in the Nazi holocaust in looking at a neo Nazis website.
Secondly the Rev WJ Stacey must probably have lots of interest (doomsday interest and evangelical) to write such a letter to the London Times.
The Reverend was a harsh supporter of the recon quest of the holy land to fulfil some doomsday nonsense.
Now I give you what I know about Palestine from what my grand parents tolled me, has my genealogy can be trace back to Palestine.
Palestine back then was divided in small district, where the Turkish had just an over-hole administration. Life was good and crops were fruitful.
Jew and Arabs where trading together very much so and happy to do so in contrary to popular belief.
The parents of my grand father where trader in commodity and moved to Algeria some time after because at that time the trade there was more important.
You can look at the every day life in Palestine in the web to give you ideas.
The big problem was and still is the Zionist, not the Jew or the Arab.
The ottoman had some reservations about the Zionist, prohibiting any Zionist to immigrate to Palestine because they believed that the rule of Palestine where to be shared by ethnic Jew and Arab a like.
And not by some very fare descendent or converted Jew that where settle in Europe for century. If we had let this plan to get shape, for sure we will not have all the mess that we have today…and this is a fact.


Kacou

Originally posted by jakyll
Thanks for showing us the figures.I think most people don't even know about those who have lost their homes,they seem to think that Palestine was empty before the creation of Israel.

As far as I know magicmushroom is citing figures from his imagination. Was he in Israel during the 1800s? If not he should clue us in to his source of information. I've cited articles from the London Times and other newspapers from that era that differ greatly from your opinion. Palestine was, at that time, a desolate waste land. A waste land that Islam didn't care about.

OHIO REPOSITORY, CANTON, OHIO, 2 AUGUST 1821
THE HOLY LAND IN 1820
The pilgrims that have visited Jerusalem this year may be summed up: Greeks 1600; Armenians 1300; Copts 150; Catholics 50, chiefly from Damascus; Abyssinians 1; Syrians 39. Total 3140

What a pathetic turn-out representing Islam. If this had in fact been a holy site to Islam, you'd think that more of them would visit wouldn't you? No, the majority of visitors came from Greece and Armenia. Hardly Islamic countries. The visitors from Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia to their third most holy site are oddly missing. Could it be that most Muslims didn't give a rat's behind about Jerusalem in the 1800s? It appears that way to me.

Originally posted by kacou
First of all this paper clip was taken from a website that for sure is pro Israel

So you refute historical evidence simply because it doesn't fit your views? That's not the position to take if you're serching for the truth. Truth is truth even if you don't like it. Of course the site is pro-Israel. Don't expect Arabs to create sites documenting the wretched state of Palestine when they were in control of it.

If you read the disclaimer at the site, and understood the predominant Christian point of view in the 1800s, you would know that there was quite a bit of anti-semitism in the articles. Christians didn't have the best opinion of Jews at the time.

These were written mainly from a Christian viewpoint, and you may detect some anti-semitism in some of them.

[edit on 11-12-2007 by dbates]

reply to post by dbates


I don’t refute historical evidence, what I refute is the giver of this so called historical evidence.
Clearly he was in the hand of the Zionism movement to give a way for a British Mandatory Palestine. But the British didn’t buy the idea yet.
I have to take the word of this evangelical cleric and refute what my grand parents tolled me…I don’t think so.
I should also ask my parents how my grand grand parents where successful in a very desolate country.
I am including a link to the chronology or the last day of Ottoman rule in Palestine.
www.alnakba.org...
I am sure that you will point to me that this site is pro Palestinian, but don’t we all are pro some thing in this very messy world. All historical evidence always point to one agenda or another.
There you will see how hard the Zionist have tried to get they hand on Palestine and then to just believe a religious zealot that send some letter to the Time of London proclaiming that Palestine was a desolate land…so tell me, why do they really wanted if it was a desolated land?
I think you are confused with Jew, ethnic Jew that lived there for millennia and converted Jew from mainly Europe which where manipulated by the Zionist. The first one has always good relative contact with Arabs (look at Christian Crusade).
And I say it again, the Jew and Arab if it wasn’t for the Zionism movement would have a real country for them self, instead of a ferocious division that we whiteness every day.
The story of the human world always has deep division to make sure that we will fight each other until the end.
Who wants to dived us? Religions, ethnicity, kings, politicians or our self.

Kacou

You have to see it from the point of view of History repeating it self, If for thousands of years God of the Bible said leave Israel to the Jews no suffering will happen to the people who want to take it. Israel is not that big today of a plot of land and most of it's troubles happened 2000 years ago and of a consequence man has gone through the dirt with them.
The Bible is right that it says it's people have been scattered and yet the Jew's are always driven out or empires try and kill them off. The Koran shows history of killing the Jews that is no different to ever other empire in history let alone the Nazi's and now Islamic groups who wish the same.

The only thing going for Islam in term of Israel is a mention of a Temple where Muhammad tied his horse to and descended to Heaven in a dream.
For one a Temple that was not they’re in Israel because the Romans destroyed it in 70AD unless he built one where Temple Mount and that let alone is also dubious. I could be wrong but that is what everyone is saying on religious sites. The Palestinians are the Philistines of the old days and the Romans named the place Palestine as an insult to the Jews. The problem is that once Israel gives up it's rights then Islamic rights will make the Jews and Christians illegal to enter Holy sites, in other words like Mecca non Muslims are banned, so you end up with banned locations. Temple Mount has rules made just for the Muslims as even Jews are banned from going to the top or entering the Muslim Shrine.

I don't make up the rules the facts are there and are telling it as it is, that is why the democratic world wants to make peace and as the Bible says, nations that bless Israel will also be blessed. Look at the difference to the ones that do that is a sign.

reply to post by dbates

Palestine was, at that time, a desolate waste land.

The state of the land does not matter,Palestine could be the biggest s**thole or a beautiful paradise.
What matters is that people have had (and are still having) their homes and their lives stolen!

Palestine has always had i diverse culture,i agree with you there,but what has happened is a slow kind've conquest.It seems (most of) the Jewish people don't want to share their "promised land" with anyone else.
On one hand they say remember the Holocaust,in the other they're treating the Palestinians almost as bad as they themselves were treated by the Nazi's!


Some helpful links.





[edit on 11-12-2007 by jakyll]

DBates if you were bothered to do a little research the info is there. You stated that 90/% of the Jews were in Palestine before 1948 that is patently not true. I cannot remember the exact site a I got those details from it was a Jewish one but perhaphs you would like to check out the following site.

www.isrealipalistinianprocon.org/populationpalestine even this site puts the jewish population at below half a million around 1941, so where you get the idea 5 million Jews were in Palestine before 1948 I dont know perhaps its just your imagination.

Doing some reseach about the Crusades told me that Europe was under attack by the Sword of convert or die. Like Islam today it does not fit into other societies without having to tare it down in the process where it's rule's are the first priorities.

The Crusaders must have woken up and said lets get back our history, so we can thank them for making Europe what it is today even if we fought amounst our selves, but every nation then was it's own tribe so to speak.

No different today and again stress that maybe history repeating it self and the wheels of time showing the same story. It's not make up it's just the way it is and modern times will prove that.

[edit on 12-12-2007 by The time lord]

reply to post by jakyll


Jackyll im simply posting historical fact...i am also posting many points within the Qur'an as verbatim, i did not make any of this up....please just research your faith completely, its history and message, and you'll see i am just recording what is already in practice.

reply to post by blueyedevil666

Jackyll im simply posting historical fact...i am also posting many points within the Qur'an as verbatim, i did not make any of this up....please just research your faith completely, its history and message, and you'll see i am just recording what is already in practice.

I'm not a Muslim.
I'm just a person who hates ignorance when it comes to religion,any religion.
All the things you accuse Islam of,Christianity is guilty of too.
Faith is the easiest weapon to use when you want to control people,create fear,incite hatred and wield power.

The type of Muslim you speak of are just a drop in an ocean of billions!
A good example of this is Afghanistan.If you do some research you will see that it was a radically different place before the Taliban took over.The link below has some great pictures.

I'm not denying that the Koran has violence in it,so does the Bible.Both contain horrific acts and practises,but not everyone agrees with them.
To tar all Muslims with the same brush is wrong and shows ignorance.Its like me saying that all American and British civilians are anti-Muslim and we support the war.But just because our governments are run by war mongering a**eholes does not mean that we support them or agree with them.

Believe it or not,there are many countries in the world were Muslims,Jews and Christians live happily side by side.But nobody talks about them on the news or in the papers because it would undermine our Governments objectives.

reply to post by blueyedevil666


Maybe because the people who lived in the Palestinian mandate prior to Europe and America deciding they had a right to construct a colony in the area, are unhappy with the fact that their homes and land got stolen, forcing them to live in concentration camp conditions.

It's not religion, it's land rights.

Originally posted by Project_Silo
Ignoring all the hate of course,heres the answer to your question.

The answer is simple..

The main Groups that hate Isreal would be Hamas,Fatah,both these due to Isreali harsh treatment.Such as the displacement of over 700,000 Palestinians.

On the other hand here is a group that that is a direct result of Israeli invasion and military action,Hezbollah,.

Good post. Overall, the number of displaced or murdered palestinians, lebanese, armenians etc totals over 5million. The survivors just asking for the right to return to their homeland and properties, as do the jewish holocaust survivors.

When israelis or american zionazis say Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas or Syria are "sworn to the destruction of israel" what they really mean is that those nations or groups support the right of return for palestian refugees, which would create a palestinian majority in the stolen land israel and would mean the end of israel as an exclusively "jewish state", but not of the end of the country itself.




[edit on 19-1-2008 by ergoli]