Mig 33 Super-Fulcrum and Mig 35 Flashback

ok so MiG-35's "name" is SuperFulcrum?

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
The Mig-21 of the 21st Century ? We don't have to worry so.

The Mig-21 was a good fighter, but he never won a dogfight or another air combat against a western fighter.

Between 1966 and 1972 US aircraft shot down total of 54 mig-21s. In the same period MIG-21s shot down 103 F-4s, and many other aircraft. The F-4s alone lost 206 crew members, and of course an F-4 costs more than twice the price of a MIG-21. ..This was in Vietnam!

It took a while for someone to publish that stats for Vietnam. Why is it so commonly 'assumed' that just because Russian aircraft haven't seen combat they're inferior anyway. The Mig-21 excelled in its era and the Mig-29 would have done the same under any other circumstances. Quote the Gulf War's all you like but the simple fact of the matter is the Mig-29 is an exceptional aircraft superior to anything currenlty in the USA's arsenal.

And to pre-counter any arguments about the Gulf War's
Desert Storm - only 5 mig-29's got into the air and were vastly outnumbered ... one managed to evade almost the entire USAF and reach Iran.
Iraqi Freedom - no Mig-29's got into the air because of 12 years of economic sanctions (no spare parts) and were found to have already been rendered useless years before.
Remember that Jet fighters need more servicing then F-1 or indy cars.

And just in case anyone is immature enough to claim again that the mig-29 has not been proven as a successful design they obviously aren't aware of the fall or Communism in Germany. A fact that shocks me beyond belief. The German air force uses Mig-29's F16's and F15's and has done extensive tests to determine the combat effectiveness of their air force. The mig-29 came out on top of the F15 and F16 in air to air combat every time. And this is the result of tests in a Western Biased country.

BTW a quick query ... what is the most capable fighter in service in a modern Air Force currently?
I want to see if I can draw as stupid responses as I've already seen in this thread.

Originally posted by freebie
It took a while for someone to publish that stats for Vietnam. Why is it so commonly 'assumed' that just because Russian aircraft haven't seen combat they're inferior anyway. The Mig-21 excelled in its era and the Mig-29 would have done the same under any other circumstances. Quote the Gulf War's all you like but the simple fact of the matter is the Mig-29 is an exceptional aircraft superior to anything currenlty in the USA's arsenal.

And to pre-counter any arguments about the Gulf War's
Desert Storm - only 5 mig-29's got into the air and were vastly outnumbered ... one managed to evade almost the entire USAF and reach Iran.
Iraqi Freedom - no Mig-29's got into the air because of 12 years of economic sanctions (no spare parts) and were found to have already been rendered useless years before.
Remember that Jet fighters need more servicing then F-1 or indy cars.

And just in case anyone is immature enough to claim again that the mig-29 has not been proven as a successful design they obviously aren't aware of the fall or Communism in Germany. A fact that shocks me beyond belief. The German air force uses Mig-29's F16's and F15's and has done extensive tests to determine the combat effectiveness of their air force. The mig-29 came out on top of the F15 and F16 in air to air combat every time. And this is the result of tests in a Western Biased country.

BTW a quick query ... what is the most capable fighter in service in a modern Air Force currently?
I want to see if I can draw as stupid responses as I've already seen in this thread.

Freebie? Everytime? You might want to re-check those numbers.....in fact, allow me to give you a link to a site that you may wish to explore for some "educated" guess as to what you are talking about. These guys live and breath "real" world fighters...were we merely speculate and take uneducated guess's.....

pub137.ezboard.com...

regards
seekerof

actually ... I am studying this in depth as part of a security studies Ph.D
I've met three Su-27 pilots, fourteen US pilots and eight Australian pilots
I've talked in depth with four employee's of Jane's
and I have some of the documents regarding the tests carried out by the German Air Force ... because I requested them by mail
the Mig-29 with modern Russian missiles was able to "engage and destroy" the F15 and F16 100% of the time in mock dogfights. A number of times the Mig-29 was also "lost" but was less the 8% of the time.

Originally posted by freebie
actually ... I am studying this in depth as part of a security studies Ph.D
I've met three Su-27 pilots, fourteen US pilots and eight Australian pilots
I've talked in depth with four employee's of Jane's
and I have some of the documents regarding the tests carried out by the German Air Force ... because I requested them by mail
the Mig-29 with modern Russian missiles was able to "engage and destroy" the F15 and F16 100% of the time in mock dogfights. A number of times the Mig-29 was also "lost" but was less the 8% of the time.

Freebie....thats great.
BUt that forum site I gave to you is quite easy to join and hosts a wide variety of experienced pilots and folks there. Post that info there and see what the replies will be. BTW, there are cockpit video's available there also that I have seen posted up there concerning come of those Germany Mig-29 verses F-15 and F-16's. They concern these particular planes having the Mig-29 in their "sights".....

regards
seekerof

>The Mig-21 was a good fighter, but he never won a dogfight or another air combat against a western fighter.

Most sources give results that are quite patriotical - american wons all airwars over this planet, Russians putted all enemies in shame...
just facts - most of us victories in real life (as well as so popular tale about fantastic israelian pilots) - were won against poorly trained "locals" so statistics usually became not so catastrofic for "winners"...
the only pilots really sent from USSR air force was several GvIAP's pilots - ELITE oof russian topguns. They had quite low losses in this war - not hundreds or tens - VERY few, really...and they bringed a huge amount of kills usually... in Korea (4 xampl) that was at least couple of more than once Heroes of Soviet Union pilots (from wwII really) ... and that guys did helluva REAL dogfights, not only trainings... just keep it in mind when You discuss cinflicts with Russian pilots.

Originally posted by Uninen

Between 1966 and 1972 US aircraft shot down total of 54 mig-21s. In the same period MIG-21s shot down 103 F-4s, and many other aircraft. The F-4s alone lost 206 crew members, and of course an F-4 costs more than twice the price of a MIG-21. ..This was in Vietnam!

54 Mig-21 ?

North-Vietnamese :

Mig-17 Fresco : 32 US aircrafts shot down ( 100 Mig-17 have been shot down by the USAF/USN ).

Mig-19 Farmer : 8 US aircrafts shot down ( 10 Mig-19 have been shot down by the USAF/USN ).

Mig-21 Fishbed : 36 US aircrafts shot down ( 86 Mig-21 have been shot down by the USAF/USN ).

Total :

NV : 76 Kills / 196 losses.
USA : 196 Kills / 76 losses.

anyway you lost to peasants with kalashnikov guns

[Edited on 26-7-2003 by $tranger]

BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
BWAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!

www.acepilots.com...
"The exact kill and loss numbers are subject of intense disputes between the former enemies. But whatever the true figures may have been (if they ever can be found), it is a fact that the Vietnamese pilots on their MiGs made an important contribution to the victory of their home country over the self-appointed world policeman USA."
www.mig-21.de...
A VICTORY..!

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix

Originally posted by Uninen

Between 1966 and 1972 US aircraft shot down total of 54 mig-21s. In the same period MIG-21s shot down 103 F-4s, and many other aircraft. The F-4s alone lost 206 crew members, and of course an F-4 costs more than twice the price of a MIG-21. ..This was in Vietnam!

54 Mig-21 ?

North-Vietnamese :

Mig-17 Fresco : 32 US aircrafts shot down ( 100 Mig-17 have been shot down by the USAF/USN ).

Mig-19 Farmer : 8 US aircrafts shot down ( 10 Mig-19 have been shot down by the USAF/USN ).

Mig-21 Fishbed : 36 US aircrafts shot down ( 86 Mig-21 have been shot down by the USAF/USN ).

Total :

NV : 76 Kills / 196 losses.
USA : 196 Kills / 76 losses.

propaganda crap i guess those numbers are from "Truth is the first casualty"

www.amazon.com...