US troops using Russian WWII guns?

Its just good fun.

You would be amazed at what soldiers (or anyone for that matter) will do when they're bored. Mounting some kit on an old machine gun is childsplay. Just some boys with a new toy. Likely as not a few guys took turns at target practice until they ran out of ammo and turned it in to be destroyed or shipped to some museum somewhere.

Why just blow it up? What fun is finding a weapons cache if you can't fire off a few RPGs into the desert that nobody's ever going to miss?

If they did keep it I would bet they would be more likely to use it as a "drop weapon" than actually fire it at someone. If you don't have the training to fix it on the fly, it isn't much use in combat. All you need is to kick down a door and have the thing jam up and not know how to clear it.

Originally posted by WhiteOneActual
If you don't have the training to fix it on the fly, it isn't much use in combat. All you need is to kick down a door and have the thing jam up and not know how to clear it.

That's probably true, but does this particular gun jam more often than the others? My memory is blurry at this point. I used to handle them in a class, and the construction is exceedingly simple. One free heavy (!) bolt sliding inside a receiver. Btw not the most comfortable weapon to handle or carry around. Standard units do not have the additional grip, and it's awkward to aim with it without one.

It's a little hard to imagine the Soviets developed a jam-prone weapon in the height of WWII. The design team would be immediately executed by the Stalin regime if there was a slightest hint of that.

Also, if somebody is willing to tell me the deal with the caliber. I remember the few of these babies I cleaned were 9mm standard ammo. Not conversions. Now I learn about 7.62x25. Wow.


[edit on 11-11-2007 by buddhasystem]

Its just good fun.

You would be amazed at what soldiers (or anyone for that matter) will do when they're bored. Mounting some kit on an old machine gun is childsplay. Just some boys with a new toy. Likely as not a few guys took turns at target practice until they ran out of ammo and turned it in to be destroyed or shipped to some museum somewhere.

Sure, all that spare time on their hands, needing to keep them selves busy, strip down a personal issue M4 just for kicks, (who cares what the co says) and make a TOY, for target practice, since military service in Iraq is all about fun.

WhiteOneActual, are you serious?

If they did keep it I would bet they would be more likely to use it as a "drop weapon" than actually fire it at someone. If you don't have the training to fix it on the fly, it isn't much use in combat. All you need is to kick down a door and have the thing jam up and not know how to clear it.

You have never fired a gun, and I bet you don’t even know what forward assists is, and why PPsh does not need one.

It's a little hard to imagine the Soviets developed a jam-prone weapon in the height of WWII. The design team would be immediately executed by the Stalin regime if there was a slightest hint of that.

Yep, and that’s why it was the first submachine gun to reliable operate in extreme temperatures, (Stalingrad).

Also, if somebody is willing to tell me the deal with the caliber. I remember the few of these babies I cleaned were 9mm standard ammo. Not conversions. Now I learn about 7.62x25. Wow.

Army 1896 Mauser was chambered for 7.62X25, while the currently standard 9X19 derived from the less powerful police round, 9mm Kurtz.

Originally posted by iskander

You have never fired a gun, and I bet you don’t even know what forward assists (sic) is, and why PPsh does not need one.

Army 1896 Mauser was chambered for 7.62X25, while the currently standard 9X19 derived from the less powerful police round, 9mm Kurtz.

Before you go around picking on other member's for their supposed lack of firearms knowledge it seems appropriate to point out your own.

The C96 Mauser was originally designed for the 7.63x25 mm Mauser cartridge NOT the 7.62x25mm Tokarev, and the 9x19 was derived from the 7.65mm Luger Parabellum NOT the 9mm Kurtz.

Beginner's stuff.

reply to post by Retseh

The C96 Mauser was originally designed for the 7.63x25 mm Mauser cartridge NOT the 7.62x25mm Tokarev.

You are right; I should have made it a tad more clear clear for the ones who are not that familiar with its history, and added “Russian/Soviet;

Army 1896 Mauser was chambered for 7.62X25

Remember the other nick name for the broomhandle? “Bolo”, where do you think that one came from?

TT-33, cutaway diagram

Chambering: 7.62x25mm TT (7.63 mm Mauser)

One of the most popular foreign handguns, purchased in numbers during 1920s, was the famous Mauser C96, and the Red Army really liked its powerful 7.63mm cartridge, which, in slightly modified form ,selected for its future pistol of domestic design.

world.guns.ru...

4. Cartridges

There has been much (and often acrimonious) debate concerning the advisability of

firing milsurp 7.62x25 ammunition in a C96. The simple truth is that most 7.62x25 will

feed and fire in a C96, and much of it is within the pressure of the 7.63 Mauser. But

some 7.62x25 milsurp *is* too hot for a C96, or even a Tokarev (the Czech loading of

the 7.62x25 for their Vz-52 pistol is one example of such a cartridge).

www.gunsworld.com...

and the 9x19 was derived from the 7.65mm Luger Parabellum NOT the 9mm Kurtz.

My bad, naturally I meant that Kurtz derived as a less powerful police round from 9X19 to 9X17 in the standard issue Walther ppk, or Polizeipistole Kriminellmodell.

while the currently standard 9X19 derived from the less powerful police round, 9mm Kurtz.

I happen to be blessed with an abnormally high bandwidth corpus callosum, (even wider then females) so I get constant cross-hemisphere chatter.
It’s an analytical, highly structured logic based schizotypal condition. That’s what makes me a good intel analyst.

Right hemisphere reaches out while left hemisphere crunches the data and forms the foundation, all happening instantaneously and with out filter formed memory recall bottle necks do to immediate nonlinear association forming.

Leonardo da Vinci, Hector Berlioz , etc, or your average egomaniacal tyrants and masterminds, all schizotypes.

If not properly managed it usually ends with irritating stuff like delusional paranoia.

Want a demonstration?

Other then the superficial fact of 7.63 conversion to 7.62 do to existing tooling, Russian C96 “Bolo- Mauser” is more famous for its gruesome role as one of the guns that was used in execution of the Russian Royal family which ended the Romanov dynasty.

In particular, Tsarina Alexandra was executed by Peter Ermakov who was known as a "Comrade Mauser”.

“Beginner's stuff.” – sure is : )

The first photo is clearly a soldier posing with a captured weapon: notice that on his combat vest he's wearing open-top magazine pouches with magazines for the M16/M4. The second photo, the rails are held on by wire, and not even very strong wire by the look of it, so it's clear it's not a permanent attachment. The lower rail and pistol-grip were probably attached because the GI in question didn't know that the drill for using the PPSH is to support it with a hand under the drum or just *behind* the drum. He might be considering using it (who doesn't like having 71 rounds at their fingertips?), but if he is, it's not serious yet.

The PPSH 41 is beyond a good gun. Sure it's ugly and functional and not terribly light but the upside to that is if you do run out of ammo in CQB you have a weapon that is also extremelly handy for administering crippling blows to anyone still trying to kill you... And as for reliabillity the only problem I've had with mine has been ammunition related.

Originally posted by iskander
My bad, naturally I meant that Kurtz derived as a less powerful police round from 9X19 to 9X17 in the standard issue Walther ppk, or Polizeipistole Kriminellmodell.

Firstly it's Kurz not Kurtz.

Next - the .380ACP was developed in 1908 and there is no developmental linkage with the 9mm Parabellum.

The Walther PPK did not come into existence until 1931, to suggest that the development of the .380ACP was somehow linked to this pistol is just plain made up.

And you're an intelligence analyst ??!!??

How about a DSHK mounted ontop of a hummvee?..Ive seen it, It rocks, Irs high speed and better to have it in our hands then in the hands of "others".

The whole thing is silly ... If I got sent to do building clearances and could get ahold of a ppsh with a barrel length APPROPRIATE to the ammo it's firing versus an M4 which won't fragment and tumble as it's supposed to because the barrel is too F'ing short yeah I'd take the ppsh.

and the debate about people being obligated to use issue weapons when field expedients are available that are more apropriate to the task is asinine...

I'd take my ppsh over my AR in an urban clearance drill every time... I mean ya know it was after all designed for city fighting.

they probolly photoshoped it and that would be pimper even if they did

In Vietnam the navy riverine units commonly used captured weapons on night patrols

We would drift downstream watching for small boats crossing the river hauling VC supplies.

Many times the VC would open fire first and if we fired back with AKs and other captured VC weapons they would hear our AKs and see the green tracers.
instead of red tracers, The VC though they had opened fire on one of there own units and would stop firing.

Needless to say we would keep firing and take them out.

Many times the only hint they got that they goofed was when our .50 BMG opened up on them.

I would suspect that US units on night patrols in the sand pit have pulled the same trick more then once.

Fellow Enthusiasts,

I have spoken with several Vets of the various operations in both the Afgan and Iraq theaters of war.

In both theaters Vets have told me of situations where they ran low or out of ammo for their issue weapons and were forced to utilize enemy weapons until re-supply was possible. Nothing new or earth shattering about that. This is true of many nations armed forces in many wars.

I have a set of WWII Red Army memoirs where the officer tells of how his men had to pick up and use German weapons since the ammo for their weapons was exhausted and re-supply was not taking place. They still retained their Soviet issue weapons but used the German weapons.

I have interviewed U.S. ETO vets from WWII who told me they utilized German weapons of all sorts. This was not due to lack of GI ammo but because in some cases the German weapons were better suited to the tasks the GIs needed them.

I interviewed a German Panzer officer who told me that he had a PPSH which he carried inside of his tank while fighting on the Eastern Front. Why? Because he told me that after he had been shot at by several of them he decided it would be a good idea to get one of his own.

Soldiers are soldiers and they will do or acquire whatever they need to in order to preserve the lives of their comrades and get the job done. Regulations mean little in combat.

Heck I'd rather have an ak-47 and trade in my m-16, I'm quite comfortable with them.

I think it was taken out of context... nobody would use the guns in real life anyway.

No, it isn't a hoax, but more likely a firing exercise that appeals to the soldier's love of history and the opportunity to use a historic weapon.

I once got a chance to take/use/fire WWII weapons, including a beautiful Thompson 1928, a $4 stamped Grease Gun, a Sten, and a Russian Mosin Nagant.

Loved the experience. Carried the Thompson one time on patrol, and couldn't wait to get rid of it.

They found these weapons somewhere and wanted to fire them.

Good for them!

I just see a soldier getting familar with such an old legendary rifle/mg, its not like he's in combat using it, which the thread title led me to believe, wouldn't you have a photo with an old classic car, just as well as a new flashy sports car? whats the difference... whos to say this is even in iraq?

These are just trophies. Iraq is full of old weapons. When you're on a mission and you confiscate something unique, you check it out, take it to the range if possible, pose with it maybe. As far as the sight and grip in the second photo, they are standard equipment and wouldn't be hard to rig on temporarily for some pictures.