Immigration: How Hard Will Illegals Fight to Enter the U.S.?

reply to post by Justin Oldham


I don't see the party doing anything until a large organized grassroots type organization forms and makes a louder noise than the illegals. It just would not be prudent for them to do so with even a small threat of violence showing. We see what happened with the protest groups. They almost seemed catered to when they marched in CA.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

It's regrettable, but we are going to see some degree of militancy on both sides. The Republicans won't push for honest law enforcement any time soon. They've proven that they're willing to do anything to get those illegal votes. In that respect, they are no different from the Democrats.

The movement you're talkingabout will have to come from the voters. Local politicians will have to run on platforms that stress actual enforcement of the laws. As those men and women rise to the State level, the national party bosses will have to take notice. We should expect this retrenchment and renewal to take 10-20 years.

Unfortunatley, that militancy you alluded to will take its toll on both sides. I expect illegals and anti-illegal groups to spawn some of our most notorious homegrown terror groups.

posted by Justin Oldham
The Republicans won't push for honest law enforcement any time soon. They've proven that they're willing to do anything to get those illegal votes.

I have not heard of illegals trying to register to vote. I suspect but don’t know that illegals want to run a LOW profile. Since voting is not going to effect them much, why risk detection by engaging in a high risk non-productive activity?

The movement you're talking about will have to come from the voters. We should expect this retrenchment and renewal to take 10-20 years.

Whoa Up! What is our goal vis a vis 12 million undocumented persons now inside the US of A?

Presumably the much vaunted FREE MARKET limits the number of aliens coming here? Even people of slightly less than ordinary common sense will be unlikely to risk DEATH, pay up to $5,000 to go someplace where you do not already have a commitment to work. I expect the extended family raises the money and chooses the best of the group to “go forth.” If he works out OK, then if the employer will commit to hire MORE people or to hire his rotated replacement, he’ll return home occasionally.

I know a man who is a roofer. He hires 8-10 workers, all from Guatemala. That group works for him for 6 months then goes home and their brothers or cousins come up here to work the next 6 months. How do you stop that unless you offer AMNESTY?

Unfortunately, that militancy you alluded to will take its toll on both sides. I expect illegals and anti-illegal groups to spawn some of our most notorious homegrown terror groups.

Au contraire. Six years after the Nine Eleven Event and no terrorism by illegals in the US of A. But I do agree we have mistreated them - south of the Border types - for so long that any act of terrorism against us would get a “pass” from me. Just as our black brothers who still suffer under the last vestiges of Jim Crow, they do not do that. It’s mostly us white Euro and ME types who go in for terrorism.

Our southern border has been “OPEN” since 1848. Yes, 1848. I don’t know what all the current hullabaloo is about. I suspect someone who knew there was NO solution short of AMNESTY must have raised the issue to slander his opponent. I don’t know. Who gains from touting this insoluble issue? Lou Dobbs? There’s your most likely culprit.

[edit on 12/28/2007 by donwhite]

Justin;
It will take a large loss of life on one side or the other either some militant gang group ala MS13 or a white supremacy group. I think that either group would be capable of innocent bloodshed. It is a shame that women and children from either side may have to be hurt or killed for action to take place. All this does is breed racial hatred. We are starting to see such even here in the midwest I cannot fathom what may go on in TX, AZ,CA and such. I do not think that the people have the restraint to prolong this encounter for much longer. It is truly a shame. Perhaps, large scale actions from one group or another will bring about martial law and this is what the powers that be are trying to do? A large influx of illegals coupled with the oil situation and the housing collapse is going to make many people that have lost homes and jobs a powder keg. Our economic situation hasn't even hit bottom yet. I see little hope for a peaceable solution to this situation. Please understand I cannot condone people being hurt that are only trying to improve their lot in life. But I think that is going to happen.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

reply to post by reluctantpawn

All this [immigration debate] does is breed racial hatred. We are starting to see such even here in the Midwest. I cannot fathom what may go on in TX, AZ, CA and such. I do not think that the people have the restraint to prolong this encounter for much longer. It is truly a shame.

Odd how different people see the same thing differently. As a pro-union person I regret the negative impact illegal workers have on wages and job security. I aver the early ‘07 Swift & Co raids were inspired by company anti-union impulses. The reason given by the ICE was patently false.

Persons coming north to the US have self-selected to be the best, the most ambitious and the most courageous of the people in their community. We could use some fresh new blood! America should continue to be a melting pot where new ideas and different ways are introduced.

Perhaps, large scale actions from one group or another will bring about martial law and this is what the powers that be are trying to do? A large influx of illegals coupled with the oil situation and the housing collapse is going to make many people that have lost homes and jobs a powder keg. I see little hope for a peaceable solution to this situation. Please understand I cannot condone people being hurt that are only trying to improve their lot in life. But I think that is going to happen. reluctantpawn

Not all crimes are created equal. Whereas gangs and vigilantism are both disastrous to civil society, illegals crossing borders do not rise to that level. I see it as more an administrative breakdown than a criminal offense. Instead of getting your papers then traveling, these people travel then hope for their papers.

As long as we have an avenge GDP per person of $42,000, and Mexico and south has closer to $10,000 GDP, a lot of Mexico’s 108,000,000 people will cross the border. Instead of acting like a bunch of scared East German Communists and building a WALL around ourselves, we could spend that money helping Mexico to improve the life styles of its POOREST citizens.

I also refer you to the Great Wall of China and its historical FAILURE to keep out the foreigners. I remind you again of the Berlin Wall which likewise was a failure. I am embarrassed that Americans are so short-sighted and apparently so selfish that we would even consider building a WALL. Come Quick Sweet Jesus!


Note 1. The war on crime. On page 122, “ . . although the war on crime was not [J Edgar] Hoover’s idea . . [it] probably originated with Pres. Roosevelt’s personal secretary Louis M. Howe . . in an August, 1933 radio message, Howe linked state and nation to a crusade against criminals . . Howe had for some years maintained a passionate interest in the anti-crime movement . . “ From the book “War on Crime” by Claire Bond Potter. 1998, Rutgers University Press.

[edit on 12/29/2007 by donwhite]

I'll stand on what I've already said. 10-20 years in our future, there might be a real movement to tame the border, but its not likely as of the moment I type this. I do expect that we'll see increased gang activity. I myself am already aware of my local MS-13 chapter.

We won't get the reforms we want unless we can send a majority to Washignton D.C. that will act on that mandate. I can see how the future looks so totally dark and depressing that you're only rational projection is death and doom.

As a person who uses the written word to make his point, I'm not through making my case for those reforms. Everything you see in this forum is bent in that direction. Things will have to get much worse before they get even a little bit better. If we want those reforms badly enough, we'll keep talking about them, and we'll keep searching for the way to resolution.

In my own case, I'll keep painting those word pictures of the future that might be. I'll also keep blogging. The system is going to break sooner or later, and when it does, we'll be hard pressed to come up with the spare time for these chats. That's why they're so important now.

reply to post by Justin Oldham

I'll stand on what I've already said. 10-20 years in our future, there might be a real movement to tame the border, but its not likely as of the moment I type this. I do expect that we'll see increased gang activity. I myself am already aware of my local MS-13 chapter.

Until we can get a handle - have the will - on the circumstances that produce the neighborhoods out of which gang members come, we are indeed in for so hard times. Just as we are tilting at windmills in the fiasco we call the WoT so also are we taking an approach to gang-mentality that is going to either fail miserably or bankrupt us in the process. Fight smart, not dumb.

We won't get the reforms we want unless we can send a majority to Washington D.C. that will act on that mandate.

TOO much democracy. It emasculates the populace. A document meant as much to preserve slavery as to empower the people has outlived it time. We owe the Senate and the Electoral College to that imperative. Note the prior Articles of Confederation had the unicameral legislature. The Senate was added to protect the slave holders.

Traits of personality that make a person WANT to hold public office and the qualities the voters prefer are not often the same talents and knowledge the running of the government begs for. No serious candidate for high office can afford to tell the TRUTH to the voters. Not good.

I can see how the future looks so totally dark and depressing . . I'm not through making my case for those reforms. Everything you see in this forum is bent in that direction. Things will have to get much worse before they get even a little bit better. If we want those reforms badly enough, we'll keep talking about them, and we'll keep searching for the way to resolution.

Looking back in US history, it occurs to me that there has been only ONE time of revolution after the new Constitution became effective. 1789. That was the first six years of the New Deal. 1932-1938. The Great Society did make waves, but it was only building on the foundations the New Deal had laid. 1964-1968. That’s it. America’s LEFT was beaten - by a whisker - in 1968 and has never returned. Carter - 1976-1980, like Ford, was decent enough. Clinton 1992-2000, was start enough but did not have the Congress.

Now like it or not, the Reagan Doctrine has nearly succeeded. The Federal Government has been neutered. Reaganism would not win on up or down votes in Congress or at the polls. Most people still think we have a government. Instead of voting the GOP learned how to eliminate staff. Yes, we have an FDA but we can’t inspect incoming food nor do we have a complete list of all the drug factories outside the US that make 75% of the active ingredients in our medicines. Once every 2 years! The Consumer Product Safety Commission has ONE inspector assigned to toys.

The Fed/FDIC has not enough regulators or auditors to prevent the sub prime meltdown, something that did NOT happen during the greatest housing boom we ever had, 1945-1975. The DoD Inspector General has 75 auditors in Iraq overseeing 150,000 contracts dispensing $80 b. He says he needs 2000. Say hello Halliburton! The Corps of Engineers in Florida has rejected only 1 wetlands permit in 4 years. No staff.

As Reagan said, Government is the problem, not the solution.

I wonder.

[edit on 12/29/2007 by donwhite]

I would be the first one to agree that the Federal government is becoming institutionally ineffective. It holds power, but it is slowly losing its ability to dispense actual govermance. In an effort to stay on topic, I'd point out tha the illegal issue demonstrates that our leaders don't have our best intersts in mind. Not when they allow the tools of proper law enforcement to sit and rust.

reply to post by Justin Oldham

In an effort to stay on topic, I'd point out that the illegal issue demonstrates that our leaders don't have our best interests in mind. Not when they allow the tools of proper law enforcement to sit and rust.

Lets look at the length of our borders for a minute. The CIA World Factbook has the following on border lengths: with Mexico, 1,947 miles; and Canada with the Lower 48, 3,778 miles and with Alaska, 1,535 miles. Most of the Mexican border lies with Texas, with lesser lengths with AZ, NM and CA. Some parts of the border are easier to cross than others. Some places have more legal crossings than others. And I assume, more illegal crossings.

Because Canadians share our English cultural background (excluding the Québec separatists) and are approximately equal in personal incomes, they share the same antipathy for illegal terrorists entering their country we harbor. The Canadian border will never be a cause for concern here, but it like our own, may be crossed on occasion despite the best efforts of both sides.

Back to the Mexican border. I suppose we should ignore history and reject any civil conversation about families that live on both sides of the border but retain as primary their Hispanic traditions as their source of culture. I guess we should ignore that infinitesimally small group that is raising its head in Mexico, which promises to RETAKE the lands lost in the 1846-1848 Mexican War. As with the Quebeckers I mentioned above. We more nearly resemble the Russian Red Army in Eastern Europe just after May 7, 1945. History starts here!

In 1970, we and Mexico established the Maquiladora Zone, about 20 km (12 miles) deep into Mexico along the border. The Mexican Congress set a higher minimum wage there than was legal in the remainder of Mexico (but still much lower than the US minimum wage). The theory (and hope) was that Mexicans seeking a better life would stop in the Maquiladora Zone and work for what was then, largely American companies moving south. Now over 3 decades later, still 80% of those Mexicans in the Zone are living in squalor! Unpaved streets. No sewer system. No fresh water system. Very little electricity. Poor phone service. And so on. In other words, we want their cheap labor but we do not want to fund the infrastructure needed to give the workers a decent life. Hmm? See www.madeinmexicoinc.com/maquiladoras_industry.htm

Did the maquiladora concept FAIL or did we FAIL the concept? Now we want to build a wall so we do not have to look at those people. If the same people here who advocate a WALL had been in Germany in the late 1930s, I’m pretty sure they would have used solid brick walls around Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen and too many other camps, so otherwise good Germans would not have to look at the horror going on inside the camps! See Note 1.

I hate walls. I will always hate walls!


Aside: Western policymakers believe dictatorships can be defeated merely by removing the dictator. In “Warrior Politics: Why Leadership Demands a Pagan Ethos” 1998, by Robert D. Kaplan, writes “The 19th century Swiss historian Jacob Burkhart said ‘Like bad physicians they thought to cure the disease by removing the symptoms and fancied if the tyrant were put to death freedom would follow of itself.’ ” By the 1990s it had become the mantra of the West to insist on elections in the Middle East. Kaplan describes the current situation in Pakistan to a tee! And he warns that to democratize either Syria or Egypt may unleash violent forces that will further disrupt the region, that only a succession of dictators have kept in check and under some control.

Note 1. Because the Germans were so efficient, we have very accurate records of the numbers and the names of almost 99% of those Jewish persons destroyed by the Nazis. Hitler paid the privately owned German railroads 1 pfennig per person per kilometer transported. We have the original freight bills submitted for each trainload of Jews hauled to their deaths. It was not unusual for 25% of the Jews to arrive at their destination already dead.

[edit on 12/30/2007 by donwhite]

Border security is the obligation of any soveriegn State. It may seem philosophically 'wise' to leave borders open in the hopes that some of Your prosperity will rub off on Them. The simple truth is this. As a nation gets weaker, it helps fewer people. Its government becomes less capable and its infrastructure eventually loses its capability to expand to meet increasing social needs.

I am speaking in generalities, but let's apply them to the United States. they could be applied to any antion, but let's look at the American situation.

Illegal immigration is not souly responsible for our political, social, military, and economy declines. It is, however, a factor that contributes to each of these things. If we don't tackle the issue of illegal immigration, it will continued to play its role in each of these declines I've mentioned.

An examination of the situations in the border States demonstrates that illegal is illegal, and illegal impacts those States on political, economic, and soical levels which they can no longer cope with. It's only a matter of time until they become overrun. Their governments, infrastructures, and economies will collapse due to unmangeable burdens. Those maladies will be transferred to other States as populations shift in search of that elusive prosperity that used to be so common.

This isn't all about slack law enforcement. It's about incompetent management. On a personal level, we are called on to be honest and industrious, while on the national lelvel we tolerate governmental practices that would put any one of us in the poor house if we tried to live that way.

We could put enough people on our borders with the appropriate technology to make walls unnecessary. Unfortunately, feces and marked jurisdictions will be necessary as a symbol re-focus the national will. Without these symbols of intent, we don't convince ourselves or the illegals that we mean what we say. Until our words and deeds are accepted as 'fact,' we have no choice but to rely on more tangible symbology.

reply to post by donwhite


Sir;
I whole heartedly agree that a wall will not keep the people out. Please read my post in it's entirety. I also agree that at one point only the "better quality" immigrants came across the border. These are generally good people that work hard for very little but more than they would make in their own country. But to claim that they have impacted us only minimally is ludicrous. I think that one only ask local citizens and even read the MSM to understand that they are about to bankrupt the local economies. My suggestion was to enforce current laws and create new ones to make it unfeasible for them to remain in the U.S. Certainly we need to address the gang issues not only the immigrant gangs. However we are seeing organization and increased military tactics from these same gangs that is unrivaled from local gangs. We already have some of there best workers. There are also many good workers from other countries that cannot in. Could they not do these jobs legally.
yes our government is partly to blame but corporatism is in my opinion mostly to blame.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

reply to post by Justin Oldham

Border security is the obligation of any sovereign State. It may seem philosophically 'wise' to leave borders open in the hopes that some of Your prosperity will rub off on Them.

Yes, I too want border security. If Mexico rolls up 500 old M3 Sherman tanks at the Rio Grande across from El Paso, I expect my country to respond appropriately. Now as to individuals coming and going, that is another matter. We have a system in place that STINKS of prejudice and pandering. To bolster our time without end disdain for Cuba’s form of government, we allow “escapees” to enter our country at will. In fact we encourage them. We are still trying to prove communism bad, capitalism good. From other countries, we want only the rich and famous, well, the Oxford educated and so on. So a peon in Peru wants a visa to the US to work? Get in line. Come back in 10 or 15 years to see how you have progressed on OUR waiting list. Get a life! It is a problem of serious proportions that needs a workable solution.

Hint: It is a heck of lot easier for Mexico to keep its people IN than it is for us to keep them OUT. And cheaper too.

Illegal immigration is not solely responsible for our political, social, military and economy declines. It is, however, a factor that contributes to [impact] each of these things. If we don't tackle the issue of illegal immigration, it will continued to play its role in each of these declines I've mentioned.

I agree. I do think we ought to quit exaggerating the costs associated with the illegals. Every state except Alaska, Delaware, Montana, Oregon and New Hampshire has a retail sales tax. That’s 7,400,000 people total. Less than 2.5% of the US population. The FL sales tax is 6.5% state and .5% local, making 7% to the consumer. 64% of Florida’s General Fund comes form the retail sales tax. Aside: despite having the highest number of millionaires living in Florida, the estate tax supplied only 1.5% of the state’s revenues. GOP modus operandi says if you can’t abolish a tax outright, cut it until it is trivial. See, J/O, I did not mention Reagan!

The simple truth is this. As a nation gets weaker, it helps fewer people. Its government becomes less capable and its infrastructure eventually loses its capability to expand to meet increasing social needs. An examination of the situations in the border States demonstrates that illegal is illegal, and illegal impacts those States on political, economic, and social levels which they can no longer cope with. It's only a matter of time until they become overrun. Their governments, infrastructures, and economies will collapse due to unmanageable burdens.

Darn! That is almost axiomatic! First, I have always supported the idea the US government should send each of the border states $5,000 a year for each of the estimated illegals residing in that state. Any other state that can show a number - say over 5,000 - would also be eligible for help from the Failed Borders Trust Fund. The Fund would be supported by employers would contribute 20% of all wages paid and in return, receive amnesty for any person he could prove he had paid the assessments on.

Maybe a bit more seriously, all of us are equally guilty for allowing this condition to fester and grow over at least a half century. Therefore we are all guilty and ought to contribute to the expenses incurred in the border states and any other state where illegals were of a substantial number. NYC for example. I regret I must remind that this is contra-indicated in GOP philosophy. They urge “states rights” over economic sanity. The only solution the GOP can offer is GUNS and WALLS.

This isn't all about slack law enforcement. It's about incompetent management.

And I contend that failure is by DESIGN. Say hello Brownie! See Note 1. If you can’t abolish government, then make it so imperfect that the people will despair of governance. Example. When I worked in the court system (1974-1990), I helped file a number of Social Security Total Disability Claims. The average wait time from filing to the initial hearing was about 2-3 months. In good (obvious) cases, the ALJ - Administrative Law Judge - would rule on the spot and the order for payment would go out quickly. In 3-4 weeks the checks would flow. When you are totally disabled even that delay can be a real hardship. Today, in some states we have delays as long as 2 years before the intimal hearing. In effect, the Republicans have abolished that not so well known but oh so valuable part of the 1935 Social Security Act. Tactic: Don’t hire enough staff to meet the demand. Small government. Reaganism at its best (or worst)! Oops, sorry but I do believe in giving credit where it's due.

We could put enough people on our borders with the appropriate technology to make walls unnecessary. On a personal level, we are called on to be honest and industrious, while on the national level we tolerate governmental practices that would put any one of us in the poor house if we tried to live that way.

I don’t mean to be entirely doctrinaire but this current situation is directly related to or attributable to Ronald Reagan and Newt Gingrich (and Dennis Hastert). We can fix it anytime we want. We know how. We did it from 1933 to 1980. We can re-staff the FDA. We can re-staff the CPSC. We can re-staff the FDIC auditors. The Dems (barely) lost in 1968, the watershed year, due to the Vietnam War. In a way, Ho Chi Minh may be laughing at us now.

Note 1. In NO, most of the insurance claims in the 9th Ward have NOT been paid now over 2 years after the hurricane. We are watching the "ethnic cleansing" of NO's 9th Ward. That's what SMALL government produces.

[edit on 12/30/2007 by donwhite]

I think we can agree that the solutions to this problem already exist. I agree that our leaders have chosen to fail. It's not as easy as it might look to do what's in the national interest. Politicians throughout history have given in to temptation. The leson was true than, and it's true now.

The degree of difficulty we now face is clearly not enough to motivate people at the grass roots level. Certainly not enough to motivate our leaders in to doing the right thing. For the better part of 175 years, we could ignore the problem because our economy was simply too powerful and hte need for warm bodies of all sorts was too great.

Now, things have changed. We're seeing the limits of our economy, and its taking its toll on our infrastructure. Government will be last pillar to give way under this form of decay. it always is.

I am surprised you are talking about how to stop people getting in, I would think the ways of getting out are more pertinant these days .

posted by reluctantpawn
Sir;
1) I whole heartedly agree that a wall will not keep the people out. Please read my post in it's entirety. I also agree that at one point only the "better quality" immigrants came across the border. These are generally good people that work hard for very little but more than they would make in their own country. But to claim that they have impacted us only minimally is ludicrous.

(1) Ludicrous? Maybe we need to define “minimally?” As you know, a low income head of family or household is entitled to file an Earned Income Tax claim which pays them. On a taxable income of $16,000 a man with a family of 4 will get a Earned Income refund of $4,716. I bring that up to remind that is about the annual pay at $8 an hour. (Using 2000 hours per work year). Note: the EIT credit ends at $39,750. I pointed out in my reply to Justin Oldham that in Florida’s case, 64% of the state’s General Fund comes from the 7% sales tax which all people - legal and illegal - pay in equal amounts. I also listed the 5 states mostly small, without a sales tax. Alaska, Montana, Delaware and New Hampshire were on the list and I doubt there are many illegals in those states. Only no sales tax Oregon would be likely to support a substantial population of illegals.

2) I think that one only ask local citizens and even read the MSM to understand that they are about to bankrupt the local economies. My suggestion was to enforce current laws and create new ones to make it unfeasible for them to remain in the U.S.

Maybe yes, maybe no. Anecdotal evidence is hardly valid to make big decisions on. The MSM is notoriously pro-business which is the primary beneficiary of illegals, as you point out below. California has the most illegals and the biggest outlays for benefits. California has (justifiably) squawked about that for 20 years or more. Yet California is not bankrupt. I’m afraid I am not much impressed by this argument. It don’t hold water.

3) Certainly we need to address the gang issues not only the immigrant gangs. However we are seeing organization and increased military tactics from these same gangs that is unrivaled from local gangs.

Gangs I do worry about. A lot. It is estimated that 10% of America's GDP is controlled by the Mafia. I know independent truckers who will decline loads to Newark or NYC. Gangs are endemic to neighborhoods where there is a general malaise due to lack of good role models, lack of good employment, lack of good clean housing. And etc. The upwardly mobile are not good recruits for gangs. We know that. We’ve known that for 100 years. Yet we tolerate absentee landlords operating slum housing where desperate people resort to drugs, pimping, and petty thievery. These are usually people of color. So we whites - the R&Fs live in gated communities - are content to send in more police, build more jails and make sentences longer. Hmm? That is a solution, but is it cost effective? Not to mention moral or ethical.

4) We already have some of their best workers. There are also many good workers from other countries that cannot get in. Could they not do these jobs legally. yes our government is partly to blame but corporatism is in my opinion mostly to blame. respectfully
reluctantpawn

Thank you Mr R/P for your civility. Recall the Swift and Company 5 meat precessing plants in the Midwest that were raided simultaneously by the ICE - successor to INS. There were 5,000 employees. 1,700 were undocumented workers. 70 had stolen Social Security cards. This was given as the reasons for the raid but I assert that is a patent lie. It was a union busting maneuver meant to frighten ALL the workers.

I say it was a lie because they - the ICE - knew each of th 70 workers by name and it would have been easy to have management point out those workers one at a time. On November 30, 2004, following the re-election of President Bush and on NYC Mayor Rudy Giuliani’s recommendation, he nominated former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik to head the Bush43 monstrosity called Department of Homeland Security. Later he declined the nomination due to his criminal past and then Bush43 found former Judge Michael Chertoff who was appointed. Neither man has the credentials for the job. Like Ken Brown in FEMA. Muck it up at the top!

We’re ALL to blame. We want cheap hamburger. If Swift & Co was unionized our hamburger would cost us 20–30% more than it does now. And etc.

[edit on 12/30/2007 by donwhite]

Bush can put 2 border guards to jail for shooting a dangerous drug trafficker in the ass, but he cant put the drug trafficker in jail....
bush = fail
war on drugs = fail
U.S. = leading toward failure
Life as we know it = soon to end

we need to put armed US troops on the border and order them to shoot to kill. its the only way things will stop. its crazy. our guards are being ambushed and hurt and no one will do a dam thing about it.

reply to post by donwhite

Sir; we may not be as far off as you might think. We just have differing approaches to a solution. We agree that is not the fault of the illegal immigrants. We agree that the government is not acting in accord to it's agreements to govern. We agree that we as citizens are partly to blame. We may also agree that the Tyson raid was to attempt to thwart unionization. I believe that this issue is being used as a wedge to breed disenchantment with these people and to take blame from political and economic forces at play. The american people as a whole will look for the easyiest place to lay blame. Thus the hispanics come to mind, just as in earlier times it was the black. irish, chinese,etc. I myself make only around 45k a year and must support a family of five. Unfortunately my wife also must work and that brings our income up to 70k. We are not the R&F. We also agree that social issues are at play in contributing to the underclass. However there i must disagree with you. We can provide programs and education to no end and most of this underclass will not attempt to rise out of the poverty that they are in. For any capitalist economy to work there must be an underclass. However that is one thing that makes the U.S. so great, our underclass can and has historically been able to rise up and overcome that status. We are not a class based society as a whole. I just do not believe and am even offended that illegal immigrants are granted privledges that I am not. i.e. in stat tuition, free health care free education, drivers license, no income tax, etc. This becomes a burden to the working families whose taxes pay for these programs. This is what I believe will be the wedge issue that may turn violent and I would not be surprised if the powers that be do not want this to happen. I believe that these issues can be overcome through a restructuring of current laws and restrictions on corporate abuse not through social programs that are subsidized through tax funds. By the way I do truly respect a civil discourse even from differing points of view.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

That civil discourse is the reason we are here. dialogues like this matter more than we realize. In the last 24 hours, 300 people have read this thread. they might agree with ou, or they might disagree. Either way, WE all of us who are taking part in this discussion are...reaching people.

Like many nations in decline before ours, today's U.S. elite can't see past the next election. The technical term is "selfish." They've learned that its eaiser to to take than it is to give. That virtue that we call public service is not to be found among these men and women.

Don would like us to believe that the High Road in this case involves more institutional authority that acts on a socialist mandate. Please take note, that's a small "s." The difference is important.

Don's argument holds only so long as we have the largess to back it up. Unfortunately, we don't. Republicans and Democrats alike have swuandered our nation's wealth, while at the same time failing to invest in in the society and its necessary infratstructure. it is for that reason why I and otehrs adovcate for a leaner and more ardent approach that relies on actually enforcing the laws we have on the books without growing the bureaucracy.

It's taken us us 175 years to reac this point. There is no quick fix. It'll have to decade over the span of decades, in small increments. If it's done at all. Our fellow citizens and our leaders will have to re-learn some hard lessons along the way. it won't be fun, but it will be necessary if our democracy is to survive.

reply to post by reluctantpawn

I myself make only around $**k a year and must support a family of five. Unfortunately my wife also must work and that brings our income up to $**k. We are not the R&F. We also agree that social issues are at play in contributing to the underclass.

My compliments to you, your wife and your children. You are the backbone of our country. On people like you, it all rests. Free advice from an old person. Incorporate all children into a monthly family planning session. Real dollars and real obligations must be faced by all members. Priorities must be laid out and explained fully. Decisions are not necessary as repeating monthly sessions will gradually build a consensus, which is better than a decision. The sessions cannot be overly long - young people have low attention spans - but must be regular. As on the evening of the First Wednesday of each month. And it should not conflict with a “favorite” tv show. As children become more aware of the family’s financial limitations, their perceived “needs” should diminish. On the issue of allowances, regardless of the family’s wealth, all allowances must be tied to performing essential household functions or chores. But never deny 100% of the allowance even in the most egregious cases. I’d say a temporary 50% cut would be sufficient to “shake-up” the non-performer. A 100% cut shifts their own sense of guilt to your poor sense to perspective. And keep in mind rules are for everyone. End of free advice.

However there I must disagree with you. We can provide programs and education to no end and most of this underclass will not attempt to rise out of the poverty that they are in.

I do not believe that is completely accurate. Regardless, if it is then that only shows me that we must start earlier in the child’s life to instill a sense of curiosity that will drive the student to aspire to learn more. As a general proposition I will not accept that “ . . most of this underclass will not attempt to rise out of the poverty that they are in.” Boot-strapping is OK only if you have a pair of boots.

For any capitalist economy to work there must be an underclass.

I deny that. I am not a social fatalist. I grant it is true that pure capitalism - we don’t have that here - is a form of Darwinism, survival of the fittest. But that is no way to run a civilized society. I would suppose the 19th century would be the closest to Adam Smith capitalism we ever came. Theodore Roosevelt first proposed social security and health care for Americans but he was hooted down. Some of his proposals have become law, others still languish.

Americans seem to possess a self-imposed blind spot. I have reminded readers here that until CFR comes to full reality, we will always be ruled by economic oligarches. Campaign Finance Reform. The public must pay 100% of the cost of public elections. Presently our elections are for sale to the highest bidder. Defense contractors. Insurance companies. Pharmaceutical companies. And etc. No CFR, no good government. Good government means responsive and responsible government.

I just do not believe and am even offended that illegal immigrants are granted privileges that I am not. i.e. in state tuition, free health care free education, drivers license, no income tax, etc. This becomes a burden to the working families whose taxes pay for these programs.

Those claims are mostly hype! Mr R/P, apparently you have never applied for welfare benefits. To start, you are assigned a case worker for assessment. If you are found to be eligible for a program, or several programs, then you are transferred to another case worker who will explain want the government will do for you and what you must not do to avoid losing this assistance. Depending on where you are located, this can take 3 to 4 weeks before you begin receiving benefits. I have not applied but I have worked in Juvenile Court where 95% of the “customers” have applied. I left there in 1990, but at that time no one could get past the first application without a social security number.

Emergency health care cannot be denied anyone regardless of the persons financial standing or lack thereof. A non-issue. In-state tuition. The two tuition scheme is anachronistic. I would rather have an educated “illegal” than an illiterate one. Learning makes you civil. Civil means you can live well with others. We don’t need any more un-civil people in this world. Thanks to the GOP Medicaid is almost worthless now. Driver’s licenses are a prerequisite for buying auto insurance and that is a state issue, not a Federal one. I wrote my lengthy reply above incorporating the EIT - Earned Income Tax - to demonstrate that the bulk of illegals are not making enough to pay taxes anyway. So it is not of much weight to complain they are not. Regrettably, all too many Americans don’t pay taxes either because they make TOO little money. We need to spend more time and brain power on fixing that rather than in bemoaning the 12 million illegals.

By the way I do truly respect a civil discourse even from differing points of view. respectfully reluctantpawn

And me too!

[edit on 12/31/2007 by donwhite]

reply to post by donwhite


Thank you for your advice most all is already incorporated as we a family that follows Dave Ramsey. We are currently out of dept with only a minimal mortgage. We are currently considering the purchase of a newer used auto for cash. I believe many of our woes could be eliminated if all would use these simple financial principles. As to not having boots my father grew up in the great depression and he could tell you stories. I still firmly believe in the american dream and great desire can overcome these burdens. Unfortunately it is now socially acceptable to give birth out of wedlock, remain unmarried, and wait for others to offer assistance. These in my opinion are part of the cause of the downfall of our society. Yes they can and should be taught these things even in our school systems but it seems that now we must accept any decision by an individual as the right one due to political correctness. But I digress from the issues at hand. We certainly must do something about the immigration issue and it must start with us. Ignorance of the masses will will only breed more discontentment and more blame from the ill informed. As I said earlier I think this will start to bring violence into play. The people will have a scapegoat for their anger even if it is in the wrong direction. We must reverse the downward spiral of our service economy and social misdirection. I unfortunately am starting to believe that the govt. may want it to play out this way for whatever reason they may have. I know that they really cannot be so blind as to see what may be coming. Heaven help us if J.O. is correct and it is all selfish greed from our elected officials. Yes I agree we need campaign finance reform As I posted earlier we should also find agreeable limits for lobbying.

respectfully

reluctantpawn