Serpent mythology

Originally posted by Marduk
you tried to claim that Gukumatz meant "sovereign plumed serpent"

Ahh no i didnt try to claim that, wikipedia did. Your favorite source.

Wikipedia

Gukumatz (Alternatively Gucumatz Gugumatz or Kucumatz. Translates as "sovereign plumed serpent")

Anyway i'll move on,

Cool, flying snakes, more of a glide really but there may well have been many more of these types of snake in ancient times. Extinct variety's may have had some bearing of the mythology of winged/feathered/flying snakes maybe? Who knows what different types of snakes may have existed 2000 - 10000 yrs ago. This is all speculation on my part, but interesting i think.

news.nationalgeographic.com

A flying snake begins its takeoff by hanging from a branch with the front of its body forming a J-shaped loop. It then accelerates up and away from the branch, straightening the body and flattening it from head to tail end, so that the body width nearly doubles.
As the snake gains speed, it lifts its head and tail end toward the middle and undulates from side to side in a wide S shape. The snake generates lift, said Socha, although he is not certain how it's done.

www.flyingsnake.org

biomechanics.bio.uci.edu

The snake-quite deft at avoiding obstacles-seems to swim through the air; in Socha's tests the snakes landed as far as sixty-nine feet from the thirty-foot-high launch point. In the shallowest moments of their glide (when their fall angle has decreased to its minimum), the snakes can travel nearly four times farther horizontally than they fall vertically, which easily surpasses the one-to-one benchmark of a gliding animal.

edit to fix links,twice.
[edit on 29/6/07 by mojo4sale]

[edit on 29/6/07 by mojo4sale]

The reason there are winged snakes is because of the DRAGON which has wings.

The reason there are serpents all over the world is because of the false religion that spread all over the earth from Babylon. These religions spread with the confusion of language at the Tower of Babel. You can find the serpent as well as the sun, moon and stars in all of these religions all over the world.

According to the description of the picture that was posted it is the goddess Libertus or Libertas. See the Statue of Liberty. Look on the womans head in the picture. The Roman goddess libertas is Isis of Egypt, who is Ishtar of Babylon.......who is the once living Semiramis, Queen of Babylon and known as Queen of Heaven.

Originally posted by mojo4sale


Cool, flying snakes, more of a glide really but there may well have been many more of these types of snake in ancient times. Extinct variety's may have had some bearing of the mythology of winged/feathered/flying snakes maybe? Who knows what different types of snakes may have existed 2000 - 10000 yrs ago. This is all speculation on my part, but interesting i think.

if you'd studied this in some depth you'd soon notice that the earliest models of what later become winged serpents have no wings
they all start off as sea creatures which symbolize the salt water ocean
Tiamat for instance is first depicted as a sea serpent
then later as a creature with legs
then later as a creature with wings
the reason for this is literal
the first civilisation that came up with the idea for a great serpent was coastal
as they moved away from the sea they became less familiar with sea creatures and adapted the image to make it a land creature
then later it got wings for the same reason
the civilisation that has this archaetype is always responsible for its image
it really has nothing to do with a creature that has wings any more than the winged sun disc which always represents gods who defeat a serpent to gain power is based on a real winged creature

Tiamat 1500bce (sea serpent)

Tiamat 1000bce (land animal)

Tiamat 500bce (winged serpent)

Originally posted by mojo4sale
No your missing the point. Feathered, plumed, winged snakes/serpents exist in mythology world wide and are not all related to the quetzal feather!

Could you give some examples? I can think of the medieval wyvern (which is hardly a serpent), but that's about it.

Originally posted by mojo4sale
Cool, flying snakes, more of a glide really but there may well have been many more of these types of snake in ancient times. Extinct variety's may have had some bearing of the mythology of winged/feathered/flying snakes maybe? Who knows what different types of snakes may have existed 2000 - 10000 yrs ago. This is all speculation on my part, but interesting i think.

Actually, they looked like... snakes. We have lots of pictures and lots of information on this. Snakes diversified but they haven't changed much from an evolutionary standpoint since the time of the dinosaurs (about 100 million years ago.)

In going back to the original topic, the snake mythology of the regions with flying snakes ... actually doesn't really feature flying snakes. India, on the other hand, has lots of snake myths, but none of those are feathered. They do have stories about flying snakes, though (folklore... but none of their MYTHS have this element.)
www.wildlifesos.com...

Byrd i was under the impression that there are not a lot of snake fossils from that period due to their skeletons being fragile. I may be thinking of something else though.
I know that there have been feathered dinosaurs found, mainly in China i think, i'll see if i can find some linky's.
If i've gone off on a way out tangent here, its just the musings of a vivid imagination. I'll blame it on the full moon.

Thanks mojo.

en.wikipedia.org...
i don't think the feathered dinosaurs are responsible for feathered serpent stories either

Let's see...
Say around 600 BCE, I decide to create a new religion.

The majority of people aren't exactly educated.
And, they still fear the Old Gods.

I have some good ideas, but I need a hook.

(looks into current beliefs and religions)

AH-HA ! Snakes ! That's IT ! (snaps fingers)

Instead of worshipping snakes, I'll make a "serpent"
the beginning of evil !

I'll devise a tale, where Man and Woman were PURE,
but a snake spoiled them !

Yeah, that's it !

Now, for a name and some rules. Gotta keep it simple.

Regards,
Lex

its easier than that
to popularise the new religion and demonise the old you need to claim that the old gods were evil
and in pretty much every case in the ancient world the old Gods were symbolized by serpents

So,
I got it right ?

WOO HOO !!!!


Lex

There have been reports of 'Flying Snakes' throughout history, i thought it would be interesting to discuss as part of the mythology of why Snakes/Serpents are seen as having wings or feathers in some cultures.

Herodotus wrote of winged snakes as did Pliny the Elder.

Then there are these accounts. These can obviously just be said to be Hoaxes or Tall story's, but sometimes where there's smoke there's fire.

Link to article

The earliest known recorded sighting can be found in the journal writings of Hieronymus Benzo, an Italian naturalist who traversed the New World from 1541 to 1556. In his text Istoria de Mondo Nuovo Libr. III, Benzo included the following entry on an expedition into what is now Florida:
I saw a certain kind of Serpent which was furnished with wings, and which was killed near a wood by some of our men. Its wings were so shaped that by moving them it could raise itself from the ground and fly along, but only at a very short distance from the earth.

In August of 1875, an unnamed woman dwelling in the southern side of this town made local headlines with her insistence that a smallish winged snake was undertaking excursions over her neighborhood.

original article link its a bit harder to read here but there is information on the author of the article if you want to check his credentials.

Byrd,
Some examples of winged, feathered or plumed snakes/serpents.

In some pictures i have seen Uroboros is drawn with feathered wings. I have been unable to find something similar on the web yet though. As is the Rainbow Serpent of the Aboriginal's dreamtime sometimes drawn with feathers.

link

In Greek mythology, the heaven-spanning giant Typhon had serpents for legs and a body "all winged" or feathered, as Apollodorus reported.

Azhi Dahaka

Azhi Dahaka is the three-headed serpent demon-dragon that overthrew Yima, the first mortal by cutting him in two. One head was the embodiment of pain, one of anguish, and the last of death. Its wings were so large and dark they blotted out the stars.

DRACONES OF DEMETER

DRACONES OF DEMETER (Drakones) A pair of winged serpents which drew the flying chariot of Demeter and her hero Triptolemos.

more winged serpents pulling a chariot, the same as above?

The poppy is sacred to Ceres and she is often shown carrying or ornamented by a garland of these flowers. In the Mysteries, Ceres is represented riding in a chariot drawn by winged serpents.

melanesian mythology

Hatuibwari of the Arosi district was a winged serpent with a human head, four eyes and four breasts and he suckled all he created.

Iaculi

Iaculi, The Egyptian Winged Serpent27
These are creatures that are depicted usually on tombs of the departed in Egypt. Many believe they are a symbol of those who are gone and that they are some sort of watchers. Still others believe they are related to Neheb-ka, which is a snake-headed goddess of the Egyptians.
For the most part, these creatures are a bit of a mystery. There is no reason for them to have wings. Some people believe they are similar to the Quetzalcoatl, but that dragon is found in a different culture from a different continent.
Having only two wings, they are said to be amphitere-like in appearance. Very little is known about them.

Winged serpents used in Heraldry.

wikipedia

Amphiptere, Amphithere, or Amphitere is a term used to describe a type of legless winged serpent found in European heraldry.[1]

Herodotus was not always entirely truthful in his writing
he often passed off local accounts as his own
in the case of the winged serpents he wrote

I went to a certain place in Arabia, almost exactly opposite the city of Buto, to make inquiries concerning the winged serpents. On my arrival I saw the back-bones and ribs of serpents in such numbers as it is impossible to describe; of the ribs there were a multitude of heaps, some great, some small, some middle-sized. The place where the bones lie is at the entrance of a narrow gorge between the steep mountains, which there open upon a spacious plain communicating with the great plains of Egypt. The story goes, that the spring the snakes come flying from Arabia towards Egypt, but are met in this gorge by the birds called ibises, who forbid their entrance and destroy them all. The Arabians assert, and the Egyptians also admit, that it is on account of the service thus rendered that the Egyptians hold the ibis in so much reverence.

note he doesnt see any winged serpent and his use of "the story goes"
Pliny wasn't talking about flying serpents at all when he wrote

The javelin snake hurls itself from the branches of trees

he was talking about a local snake (Jaculus) which was claimed to impale its prey items by dropping from trees like a javelin

as for the other old accounts you need to be aware that serpent was the term used for any type of lizard or reptile
some accounts no doubt are the result of this creature
Its called Draco Volans

so what we got so far
no serpents at all described with feathered wings
the other accounts you posted are all from mythology
in a previous post I showed you how imagination changed an aquatic sea serpent into a winged dragon with legs in just 2000 years
so pardon me for not thinking ancient accounts of creatures that the chronicler has never seen are all that credible
because they aren't

unless of course you believe that Yima was cut in half by an animal with wings that covered the stars
or that Demeter had a winged chariot pulled by two winged serpents so she could knock off her boyfriend in the back
know what I mean ?

Originally posted by Marduk
the other accounts you posted are all from mythology

How odd, whats the title of the thread. Something about mythology?

Originally posted by Marduk
in a previous post I showed you how imagination changed an aquatic sea serpent into a winged dragon with legs in just 2000 years
so pardon me for not thinking ancient accounts of creatures that the chronicler has never seen are all that credible
because they aren't

And.....unfortunately they didnt have vidcams 5000yrs ago so ancient accounts of creatures is what im left to go on.
Or i could just not bother and take everything you say as gospel, but then that wouldnt be much fun now would it.

How odd, whats the title of the thread. Something about mythology

so shall we all discard your previous post where you were claiming that winged snakes were a reality then

Originally posted by mojo4sale
And.....unfortunately they didnt have vidcams 5000yrs ago so ancient accounts of creatures is what im left to go on.
Or i could just not bother and take everything you say as gospel, but then that wouldnt be much fun now would it.

firstly none of your accounts was anywhere near 5000 years old, most of those details are stories told and retold over millenia until they were written down in a very exaggerated format, and most are religion based. shall we all set off to the holy land to praise Jesus at Bethlehem this easter on the strength of the New Testament
secondly so what youre saying is that having seen my post that actually shows you how Tiamat got her wings you have decided to ignore it

if you want to post erroneously time and again without anyone else offering their opinion then I suggest you become an author in pseudohistory
lets face it youre already cherry picking your evidence like the best of them

and if what I'm posting isn't gospel then how is it that what youre posting falls down at the slightest scrutiny and what I'm posting is causing it




[edit on 30-6-2007 by Marduk]

Originally posted by Marduk
so shall we all discard your previous post where you were claiming that winged snakes were a reality then

Where exactly did i claim that they were a reality, i merely raised the possibility as a discussion point in regards to the mythology of winged/flying serpents.
Notice the words i used in my posts, speculation, tall story's, hoaxes etc, and the questions i asked are followed by this symbol ?. That is not claiming anything as a reality, it is questioning.

No where have you convinced me that there could not have been some kind of now extinct animal that may have instigated some of the mythology of winged snakes, it doesnt seem likely but... So i'll continue to discuss it ad infinitum if i want. If no one is interested the thread will die a quick death and i'll move on with nary a tear in my eye.



[edit on 1/7/07 by mojo4sale]

Marduk, didnt Pliny the Elder also write about Dragons. And i'm sure he wrote of a 100ft snake which was killed by the Roman army at some river, of which he saw its skin. I think it was Pliny, i'll try to find a link when i get home from work.

My whole reasoning behind raising the issue of "flying snakes" was due to the article i found while researching serpent mythology. The writer of the article seemed well credentialled and some of the accounts he mentioned went back a few hundred years.
So it was raised as a discussion point which i thought was reasonable, if you read back through my posts at no stage did i claim they were a reality, please dont try to put words into my mouth. If you dont think its a valid discussion point when discussing serpent mythology then dont discuss it. If you feel there is something else more deserving of discussion then please raise it, i will be more than willing to research that also.

@Byrd, i have some information on the evolution of snakes which you raised in an earlier post, i will post that also. There has been quite a divergence in some of the snake evolution and the lack of much in the way of fossil examples. There is still some debate from the experts as to whether they were aquatic or terrestrial at certain stages. slightly off topic but it does have some relevance.
I also spoke to an aboriginal friend in Darwin on the weekend and he confirmed with me that in some rock art in Kakadu the Rainbow serpent is drawn with what looks like feathers or plumage.

Not a flagrant thread bump as i found this which i think is interesting.

www.iht.com

LONDON: An archaeologist has made a find in western England that he hopes will help illuminate the ritual life of Britain's Bronze Age inhabitants — a 60-meter (65-yard) serpentine mound paved with cracked stones believed to be the first of its kind discovered in Europe.

The mound, found in Herefordshire during the building of a highway, curves gently and has a "tail-like feature" attached to its end, Ray said.
He compared the site to the Serpent Mound in Ohio, an effigy of a giant, coiled snake generally thought to have built by Native Americans sometime before the 13th century.

Are there many snakes in Britain? or was this shape just coincidental.

Is it actually shaped by human hands into that shape or does it just follow a natural contour?

Originally posted by mojo4sale
Not a flagrant thread bump

as i found this which i think is interesting.

uhuh



we have only one kind of snake in England
this one

Vipera berus known colloquially as the Adder (hence the Black Adder)
www.geocities.com...
en.wikipedia.org...
its very rare and typically found in the north of the country and in scotland and wales (none in Ireland :lol
we also have slow worms which look like snakes but are actually legless lizards


I would suggest that Herefordshire County archaeologist Keith Ray is looking for funding for something and trying to raise the profile of his department
hence comments like

This is ... going to make us rethink whole chunks of what we thought we understood about the period

and

He compared the site to the Serpent Mound in Ohio, an effigy of a giant, coiled snake generally thought to have built by Native Americans sometime before the 13th century.

and comparisons with

Mounds of "burnt stones" — so-called because they have been cracked by heating and rapid cooling — litter northern Europe; some experts believe they are piles of ancient kitchen trash.

which are completely different
he probably got bored excavating Offas dyke
www.offasdyke.demon.co.uk...


anyway
heres a handy translation guide to some of the words that English county Archaeologists frequently use
ritual - we don't know what it was for
funeral material - crap that no one alive wanted
to compare - to clutch at straws
only structure - insignificant to anything
made a find - look at me
serpentine - not a straight line
kitchen trash - rubbish not properly disposed of
County archaeologist - loser
scratching their heads - speculation oppotunity
suggested - we don't really know
did not necessarily rule out - commenting before seeing all the evidence


the biggest clue as to how very important this discovery is would be the fact that it is about to be buried underneath a road and not removed to a museum

Originally posted by Marduk

the biggest clue as to how very important this discovery is would be the fact that it is about to be buried underneath a road and not removed to a museum

Yeh i found that odd that they still seem to be going ahead with the road, no mention of it being halted.

Wouldnt be a huge surprise if it was an authentic site of a serpentine shape though would it, if there are a couple of examples of snakes and legless lizards in Britain.
What sort of culture would have been around at that time?

Dont know why i had the idea that there were no snakes in Britain, believe me it had nothing to do with St George.

serpentine doesn't mean "SNAKE" in big capital letters
as an adjective it means "twisting, winding"
there are a few other "serpentine" mounds in the UK mostly named that in the late 19th century when the prevalent belief was that Druids built everything (even though they arrived 2000 years after the fact)
heres an aerial view of the Rotherwas Ribbon


suddenly doesn't look so snakey does it

theres certain words and phrases that grab the publics imagination that the media use all the time over here on archaeological stories
like mound, ancient, serpentine, mysterious

heres what the BBC said
news.bbc.co.uk...

note :they are claiming now that its Archaeologists in general claiming its just like the serpent mound in Ohio

Archaeologists said although the practice of laying stones in small level pavements is known at sites in Pembrokeshire and elsewhere, the closest parallel to the Rotherwas Ribbon is the "Great Serpent Mound", in Ohio, USA, which is thought to have been built between 200 BC and 400 AD.

also note the use of "" on Great Serpent Mound like the guy writing the articel had never heard of it.......
like ner ner na ner ner ours is older than yours is
and we didn't even have Injuns (native americans)
ask me go on ask me the last time we saw a Native American over here
we still think they ride around on horses without saddles and wear feathers for clothes and fight the seventh cavalry on the weekends

who knows what discoveries will be made in the future at this Mysterious ancient "serpentine mound"

we do have proper serpent mythology over here of course
like this


and this

and this


and especially this



but the two well known sources for them are Scandanavia and Christianity
we don't have anything that was originally local
because even getting bitten by an Adder which is the most venomous snake in the UK is slightly less dangerous than a Bee sting and grows on average a huge 90 centimetres.
the popular method for disposing of one humanely was to set the cat on it

kind of brings the super human powers of St Patrick into perspective when he banished all the snakes from Ireland doesn't it
he probably ran a cattery
(not that there were ever any snakes in Ireland I'm just saying if he did)
funnily enough St George managed to despatch a fearsome Dragon from terrorising the Oxfordshire countryside without even leaving Turkey
and St Columba apparently banished the fearsome Serpent of Loch Ness with his voice,

extract from the 7th C Vitae Columba[/I] at the voice of the saint, the monster was terrified, and fled more quickly than if it had been pulled back with ropes

how fearsome is that when its scared of a christians voice. it wouldn't last 5 seconds in a religous discussion forum
so choose
which of those stories is the most likely

incidentally I always found CHAPTER XIII much more enlightening than CHAPTER XXVIII of the Vitae Columba by Andaman.
especially if you read CHAPTERXXVIII first
www.ucc.ie...




[edit on 5-7-2007 by Marduk]

[edit on 5-7-2007 by Marduk]

[edit on 6-7-2007 by Marduk]