Mystery Painting of Christ?

Originally posted by Byrd
It appears to be a painting of a "Mandylion" -- a type of religious artwork that features the face of Jesus on a piece of cloth.
en.wikipedia.org...

It's also (apparently) called a Vernicle. There's similar images here:
www.icon-art.info...

Stylistically, I think it's the romantic style which would date the painting to the 1800's

It's not tremendously old, I don't think. But yes, it's meant to depict the image of Jesus's face that was transferred to Veronica's veil when she wiped his face as he lugged his cross to the hill. Some folks think this story inspired the creator of the Shroud of Turin to create a whole body image. Now, if somebody could find the original veil, that would really be something. And I'm guessing that if it's anywhere, it's probably tucked away in some very obscure hidey-hole in Istanbul/Constantinople.

Personally I feel it is a painting of John the Baptist (his beheading). Most paintings of Jesus depict him with a hallow to signify holiness. These pics have none. My Aunt would not hear of it though, she is sure its Jesus.

A darker version.

wow how could the owners just runn off like that did they know somethiing impottant about the painting

and if so why didnt they take the painting with them

Originally posted by TheBaldEagle
wow how could the owners just runn off like that did they know somethiing impottant about the painting

and if so why didnt they take the painting with them

My Aunt wonders the same things. She tells me the woman didn't say a word, just gasped, turned and ran down the stairs (my Aunt lived above her antique shop at the time), and was never heard from since. That was 2 years ago. I would have stripped all the other painting down, to see if they hid others as well.

Originally posted by rhain
She found one painting to be odd looking. It was a painting of a Soldier. She checked the painting closer and found the eyes were not the soldiers but a painting underneath. Carefully my Aunt removed the top layer of paint, which she found to be acrylic and not oil.

Why did your Aunt strip the painting without first getting the owners permission, that just doesnt sound right.
If she often did this with items left with her for sale i would imagine she would not have much business after word gets around.
I have to agree with kickass.

I will have to ask her that one. As you can imagine my Aunt is a fiesty woman who has always spoke her mind and gone forth with all confidence (It's the Dane in her). Her choosing to reveal the painting without permission did not surprise me but I will ask her for more details around the discovery.

When you work with paintings your average aunt just doesnt "strip the painting". There is a lengthy process, and if it was a valuable painting she probably ruined it.

This is a modern painting

Originally posted by antar
Wow look at his crazy eyes, and why would you think it is after his crusifiction? Because of all of the bloody stains around the creepy face? Dont you think if he had asended to heaven and returned he would look somewhat more bright and angelic even happy?

You are correct. He looks like a rock star or drug dealer. If this is truly a portrayal of Christ, it's a portrayal of Christ as anti-hero or Outsider. This is a Modernist, twentieth-century concept; no Christ from the Renaissance or immediate post-Renaissance period would carry an expression like that. Maybe a late Victorian, pre-Raphaelite painter might do it, but it's certainly no older than that.

looks to me to be a very similar approach to a few other paintings that I've seen


Domenico Fetti
The Veil of Veronica, c. 1618/1622


engraving by Albrecht Durer
(May 21, 1471 – April 6, 1528)

these images all depict the sixth station of the cross where Veronica wiped the face of Jesus with her hanky
the stations of the cross refer to the depiction of the final hours (or Passion) of Jesus, and the devotion commemorating the Passion. The tradition exists in Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, and Lutheranism. It may be done at any time, but is most commonly done during the Season of Lent, especially on Good Friday and on Friday evenings during Lent.


The Stations themselves are usually a series of 14 pictures or sculptures depicting the following scenes:

Jesus is condemned to death
Jesus receives the cross
Jesus falls the first time
Jesus meets His Mother
Simon of Cyrene carries the cross
Veronica wipes Jesus' face with her veil
Jesus falls the second time
Jesus meets the women of Jerusalem
Jesus falls the third time
Jesus is stripped of His garments
Crucifixion: Jesus is nailed to the cross
Jesus dies on the cross
Jesus' body is removed from the cross (Pieta)
Jesus is laid in the tomb

so basically
its quite a common depiction
and it might be quite valuable as normally with the flow of religion from protestantism to catholicism around this time many people who wished to retain their devout belief (but didn't want to get burned for it) kept their religious iconography but just painted over it
they would remember
and God would know
you'd need to have it properly looked at
Just because you can't find a signature it doesnt mean there isnt one



[edit on 18-6-2007 by Marduk]

That doesn't look too similar to the Shroud of Turin, but I do agree that it looks like a creepy version of Veronica's Veil.


(Note that this is a picture of a reproduction at Saint-Sulpice in Paris in one of the stations of the cross, I've not had the pleasure to view the genuine article. I took this picture day before yesterday)



This is the full-body image:

Originally posted by Rhain
Personally I feel it is a painting of John the Baptist (his beheading). Most paintings of Jesus depict him with a hallow to signify holiness. These pics have none. My Aunt would not hear of it though, she is sure its Jesus.

A darker version.

Hi Rhain!

Actually it may be a potrait of the Prophet and Saint John the Babtist.....the pool of blood surrounding his head?
There are also many Icons of St John the Babtist with similarities to the one you have shown....
look here
I also could be wrong and go back to what Byrd has said of her findings....which was my first impression of the portrait.

It appears to be a painting of a "Mandylion" -- a type of religious artwork that features the face of Jesus on a piece of cloth.

It's also (apparently) called a Vernicle. There's similar images here:
www.icon-art.info...

You could walk into any Russian or Greek Orthodox Church and take a look at the many Icons they have....Or you could take the Painting(portrait)to the Priest there and he will be able to tell you if it is a Religious Icon painting(religious Icons are not painted by anyone)....Icons are not painted to look as the Person was in real life, but mainly depict His/Her life in the painting as a remembrance for their rightousness and faithfullness to Christ.

helen

Some of the Vernicles linked to in Byrd's post are painted with the cloth or veil included, just as Rhain's mystery painting ( the white draping is part of the painting).....note the similar way the veil looks in the Durer print in Marduk's post.....

Since Christ was the figure in the veil story, the paintings with the veil shown must be of Christ......not John the Baptist.

Older paintings, and some of the Vernicles in Byrd's link seem to be painted on wooden panels......If Rhain's painting is on canvas, wouldn't that suggest it is a later attempt......perhaps we could get a photo of the back, detailing the stretchers and how it's held together.....tacks, staples, etc??

[edit on 18-6-2007 by frayed1]

[edit on 18-6-2007 by frayed1]

Originally posted by Rhain
Personally I feel it is a painting of John the Baptist (his beheading). Most paintings of Jesus depict him with a hallow to signify holiness. These pics have none. My Aunt would not hear of it though, she is sure its Jesus.

The cloth context (veil of Veronica) marks it as a Mandylion, so it really is intended to be an image of Jesus. John the Baptist's head would be on a silver platter.

While the halo is common in paintings of Jesus, it isn't always there (depending on the tastes of the artist.)

It occurred to me that these people may believe the painting is cursed or bad luck and they didn't realize it had been painted over.

Originally posted by frayed1Older paintings, and some of the Vernicles in Byrd's link seem to be painted on wooden panels......If Rhain's painting is on canvas, wouldn't that suggest it is a later attempt......

Not necessarily. Artists will paint on whatever they have. The style of art is more of an indicator, and this one seems to be from the late 1800's. I do think it's interesting that the artist didn't go with the "blond Jesus" although they did go with the St. James feminized face. That dates it sometime after the 1500's. It might even be as late as Mucha (1930's) but that kind of brushwork and detail is not very typical of a more modern date.

(interesting mystery... very interesting.)

The artist has undoubtedly done other Jesus paintings. Perhaps a search of images may turn up something similar.

Originally posted by Marduk

its quite a common depiction
and it might be quite valuable as normally with the flow of religion from protestantism to catholicism around this time many people who wished to retain their devout belief (but didn't want to get burned for it) kept their religious iconography but just painted over it

I agree with you there. Hence they left the eyes of the Jesus painting to show through as the eyes of the soldier. They would know they were the eyes of Jesus but an outsider would only see the soldier.

Originally posted by Ocelot
Interesting story. Although I have to say looking at the picture of that painting, it gave me the creeps for some reason. Also I wonder why the owners would freak out and leave over a painting. Maybe there's something more to this...

[edit on 17-6-2007 by Ocelot]

It looks like it's an artists representation of The 'Shroud Of Turin' (in Italy). My guess would be that it is from a Nazi treasure horde stolen during WWII.

How OLD were the couple? If they were very old....it could be that the man could be a Nazi war criminal. Many snuck into Canada and the US at the end of the war, posing as refugees. Many have since been discovered and prosecuted - many however, are still in hiding all over the continent.

Just a an educated guess...

Jimbo999

Originally posted by Thain Esh Kelch
Man that was a creepy painting.. And because of that, I can't really believe that is depicts Jesus..

It's Jesus all right. Take a look at 'The Shroud Of Turin', on which I think it's based...

[edit on 18-6-2007 by jimbo999]

Originally posted by Astyanax
This is a modern painting

Originally posted by antar
Wow look at his crazy eyes, and why would you think it is after his crusifiction? Because of all of the bloody stains around the creepy face? Dont you think if he had asended to heaven and returned he would look somewhat more bright and angelic even happy?

You are correct. He looks like a rock star or drug dealer. If this is truly a portrayal of Christ, it's a portrayal of Christ as anti-hero or Outsider. This is a Modernist, twentieth-century concept; no Christ from the Renaissance or immediate post-Renaissance period would carry an expression like that. Maybe a late Victorian, pre-Raphaelite painter might do it, but it's certainly no older than that.

Well, actually, the 'real' Christ (if you believe that sort of stuff..) WAS a revolutionary, an outsider, and a rebel. And there was indeed a hidden and secret tradition in Europe for thousands of years that kept this tradition alive. Some of these people were very famous during their lives, but out of fear of persecution, or even death from the catholic church, remained silent on the subject all their lives...

Jimbo999

I just got off the phone with my Aunt and this is the whole story...

First of all my Aunt did confirm that she does own the painting. It was sold to her by a elderly gentleman from Switrzerland. This gentleman my Aunt call Mr. Kenickie (spelling?), who was originally from Czechoslovakia. He told my Aunt that he had been through WWII and for years told of a painting he had that was very old and worth alot. He brought out a lot of antique from behind the Iron Curtain to his Antique shop in Switzerland. In order for him to collect on a old age pension he had to return 3 months every year back to Prague. Once the Iron Curtain fell he could cross back and forth easier with his items. My Aunt says he may have gotten lots of things from bombed out churches. He then came to Canada in the 80's with his collection, intending on opening a shop there. He brought with him his young Yugoslovian wife Sonja. He died a short time later. His wife didn't want to deal in antiques and sold alot of her Estate to my Aunt and asked her to sell the rest. Sonja remarried and had a couple of children, and was asked one day to come to their school where the Principle accused her of teaching her children Communism. She was so insulted by this that she left Canada. My Aunt has since sold the rest of Sonjas' belongings but has not heard from her to pay her.
My Aunt upon finding the hidden painting called Sonja to come and see it, where she looked at it, turned and left.

I will take more pictures of the painting front and back plus some close-ups of the brush strokes on Thursday, I made arrangements with her to visit.

Originally posted by Ocelot
I did a quick google search and found these guys. Apparently they specialize in this kind of thing and they provide a free consultation, they only need you to submit a high quality digital pic of the painting. Maybe you can start there and get some information.

About Art Experts

I received this email back from them.

--------------------------------------

Thank you for writing. We read the thread.

Please let us know what you would like to find out?

With reasonably good digital pictures of the front and back we could
determine when it was painted, perhaps where, and if it seems to have
artistic merit.

Sincerely,



for Art Experts Inc.
Mark Winter
Director

Art Experts Inc. The leader in art authentication.
325 Sixth Street
Holly Hill, Fl 32117

Phone toll free 866-484-8017
Email: [email protected]
Web site: www.artexpertswebsite.com

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I will take those pictures Thursday.