Difficult Facts for 9/11 Skeptics to Deny

*The official report states that burning jet fuel melted the steel at WTC 1 & 2 and in under two hours weakened their structures enough to come crashing down at free-fall speed.

-If a building were to collapse under its own weight due to melted steel, it could not come down at the speed of gravity. For an object to fall at free-fall speed there must not be any obstruction whatsoever.

-Steel cannot be melted at under 2500 degrees, a temperature which a jet-fuel induced fire could not produce, nor could the steel be melted so quickly.

-Other steel buildings have burned for over 20 hours without any significant structural damage.

-The Empire State building stood after being hit by a B-52 Bomber.

-Investigators discovered Thermite, a demolition material, in the rubble. Also molten metal burned at the base for three weeks (an impossible feat for jet fuel).

-There are visible blast points of bombs igniting early beneath the collapse of WTC 1 and 2

-There are countless eyewitnesses claiming to hear multiple bombs go off and firefighters describing a chain reaction of bombs layering down from the top in rapid succession.

-Marvin Bush was head of security for the WTC, where two weeks prior to 9/11 all bomb-sniffing dogs had been called off.

*The 9/11 Commission report mentions nothing about World Trade Center 7. Never being hit by a plane and containing only two isolated fires, WTC 7 came down in 6 seconds.

-This building also came down at free-fall speed, yet no plane hit it and no jet fuel burned. It came straight down with a characteristic demolition “kink” creased explosion down the middle.

-Larry Silverstein, the owner of WTC 1, 2, and 7 (who made 7 billion dollars from the insurance policy he took out months before specifically covering acts of terrorism) is quoted as saying he decided to “pull-it,” a demolition term for imploding a building, just before it came down.

*Where flight 93 supposedly crashed there was absolutely no plane wreckage found (no engines, no indestructible landing gear, nothing).

-All that was found was a relatively small hole in the ground with no plane reminisce and no bodies.

-The coroner assigned to Shanksville is quoted asking why he was sent there if there were no bodies.

*At the Pentagon there was only one small piece of plane wreckage found (no engines, no wings, no landing gear).

-The hole in the pentagon was not big enough for the plane’s engines let alone the planes wings to have impacted.

-There were secondary explosions inside the Pentagon minutes after the supposed plane crash.

-The FBI confiscated all video tape pointed at the Pentagon within 10 minutes of the crash and publicly released only 5 frames showing an explosion but no plane.

-They claim the plane skidded into the Pentagon yet the lawn did not have a single skid mark.

*None of the 4 planes’ titanium black boxes were found, yet one of the supposed hijacker’s passports was found having floated down to the street.

-Another supposed hijacker’s guilt was proven by a suicide note left in his suitcase that baggage handlers forgot to put on his plane.

*Multiple eyewitnesses claim that the planes that hit the WTC looked like military planes.

-Video evidence shows a “pod” or massive non-symmetrical object underneath one of the planes, not found on any commercial airliner, but common on some military planes.

*The FAA and NORAD stood down and did not send interceptors for an hour

-7 of the 19 supposed hijackers are still alive.

-When Bush was told twice about the planes crashing into the WTC, he calmly remained seated reading “My Pet Goat” for 8 minutes with some school children.

-FEMA was called in to prepare the night before.

-11 times the usual amount of put-options were placed on United and American airlines stock the week of 9/11.

Have you just watched Loose Change or something??
Much of what you are saying has been debunked or explained, however some points you make are totally valid and worthy of further study.
I may go through them individually if i have got time.

Hello Fowl Play, I would like to know which points you've heard counter information for and which points you think may hold some merit. From my assessment of what happened that day, there were definitely criminal elements within our government that orchestrated the events. But I judge from your assessment, you still tend towards the hijackers scenario correct? Could you please explain the series of factual information that leads you to believe the 9/11 commission report story?

Now that is not what i said was it?

this is what i said, so dont put words into my mouth.

Much of what you are saying has been debunked or explained, however some points you make are totally valid and worthy of further study.
I may go through them individually if i have got time.

Nice cut-n-paste job. I don't believe the official story, but the majority off your points have been debunked. I will just pick the one about the steel melting. Nowhere in any report does it state that the steel melted, rather it was weakened. Big difference.

:S There is so much stupid stuff about 9/11 its unbelivable!!!!!!!
Like Q33ny on wingdings in capitals or somit but seriously it weren't even that flight!!! crazy. But I must say that i think that it was the planes that knocked the two towers over but your evidence seems to prove other wise. I'll check some of that out thanks for the heads up though. I just cant wait for another person to dig up something about 9/11 on here though (no offence freight tomsen that info's tops but seriously...)

Sorry to put words in your mouth. I meant to ask you a question based on the assumption that your personal assessment of the events that day disagree with the 9/11 Truth movement's conclusion of an inside job. So I would like to know, do you think it was an inside job or not? And if not, could you please explain the facts that lead you towards thinking it was not an inside job?

I have done all over the Internet and in a lot of the 9/11 threads on here.. everything you bring up has been discussed.. you bring nothing new, so i suggest you join in on established threads, so you can read up, and people dont have to keep going over established ground.

A B-25 hit the Empire State Building a far cry from a B-52

The Towers were hit by 767-200s also a much Different plane than a B-25



B 25

Crew: six (two pilots, navigator/bombardier, turret gunner/engineer, radio operator/waist gunner, tail gunner
Length: 52 ft 11 in (16.1 m)
Wingspan: 67 ft 6 in (20.6 m)
Height: 17 ft 7 in (4.8 m)
Wing area: 610 ft² (57 m²)
Empty weight: 21,120 lb (9,580 kg)
Loaded weight: 33,510 lb (15,200 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 41,800 lb (19,000 kg)
Powerplant: 2× Wright R-2600 "Cyclone" radials, 1,850 hp (1,380 kW) each

Maximum speed: 275 mph (239 knots, 442 km/h)
Cruise speed: 230 mph (200 knots, 370 km/h)
Combat radius: 1,350 mi (1,170 nm, 2,170 km)
Ferry range: 2,700 mi (2,300 nm, 4,300 km)
Service ceiling: 25,000 ft (7,600 m)
Rate of climb: 790 ft/min (4 m/s)
Wing loading: 55 lb/ft² (270 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.110 hp/lb (182 W/kg)

767-200

Length 159 ft 2 in
(48.5 m)
Wingspan 156 ft 1 in
(47.6 m
Passengers 181 (3 class)
224 (2 class)
255 (1 class)
Cargo 2,875 ft³ (81.4 m³)
22 LD2s
Plane Weight, empty 176,650 lb
(80,127 kg)
Maximum take-off weight 315,000 lb
(142,882 kg)
Range 5,200 nm
(9,400 km)
transatlantic
Cruise speed Mach 0.80 (470 kt, 530 mph, 851 km/h at 35,000 ft cruise altitude)
Max Cruise speed Mach 0.86 (493 kt, 568 mph, 913 km/h at 35,000 ft cruise altitude)
Engines (x2) P&W JT9D-7R4
P&W PW4000-94
GE CF6-80A
GE CF6-80C2
Thrust (x2) GE: 50,000 lbf (222 kN

You Wrote:

Nice cut-n-paste job. I don't believe the official story, but the majority off your points have been debunked. I will just pick the one about the steel melting. Nowhere in any report does it state that the steel melted, rather it was weakened. Big difference.

-

There's not a big difference between melted and weakened steel when you're watching 3 buildings fall unobstructed at free-fall rate. A building collapsing in on weakened steel beams would look like a controlled implosion. It would come down slower than the speed of gravity look like a series of floors caving in on each other.

Originally posted by freight tomsen
There's not a big difference between melted and weakened steel...

Suer there is, and a big one. Steel loses about 50% of it's strength at 1100F and melts at 2750F. Do you see the BIG difference there?

Edit: As fowl play stated, there are literally hundreds of threads already discussing each and every one of your "points" here on ATS. I would suggest searching the 911 forums.

[edit on 6-15-2007 by nyarlathotep]

Could at least one of you, or ideally both of you please help me with a slightly longer email detailing your current assessments of the 9/11 information you have researched? I've watched many documentaries and read many old threads on related subjects, but what I'm asking here is slightly different. What do you feel happened that day and what information sways you to your conclusion?

Let me preface my comments by saying I hold firm the belief that a criminal conspiracy, involving members occupying "government" jobs, existed to bring about the events of 9/11/2001, and continues to exist in the cover-up of the reality behind those events. However, in our efforts to discover the truth, we must be accurate and avoid exaggeration or accidental distortion.

Originally posted by freight tomsen
*The official report states that burning jet fuel melted the steel

Not quite accurate. The report indicates that burning jet fuel started the fires that caused the damage.

If a building were to collapse under its own weight due to melted steel, it could not come down at the speed of gravity.

This is a common misconception. The buildings fell at a velocity somewhat slower than free-fall. Granted, the collapse was much "faster" than many structural experts expected, but to say it was "free fall" speed is deceptive.

Steel cannot be melted at under 2500 degrees,

Steel under stress (structural elements of a large building) can be softened at much lower temperatures. The report did not indicate the steel melted, it was softened. Also, the stress on the steel is a very important factor. As the material softened, stress increased, and heat increased as a result of internal friction. That being said, the realities still raise several questions about why comparatively small fires induced catastrophic failure.

Other steel buildings have burned for over 20 hours without any significant structural damage.

Indeed. But we must be aware they were much smaller buildings, under much less structural stress.

Investigators discovered Thermite,

My understanding is that residue, typical of thermite use, was discovered, not thermite itself. While this may seem a minor point, it is important, because there are several other high-stress/head ways in which such residue may be created.

There are visible blast points

The so-called squibs are indeed an interesting artifact of the collapse. I personally do not accept the explanation of windows being blown out due to air pressure.

Marvin Bush was head of security for the WTC, where two weeks prior to 9/11 all bomb-sniffing dogs had been called off.

A very interesting tidbit. Unfortunately, this appears to come from only one source (as far as I know), and has not been confirmed via multiple sources.

The 9/11 Commission report mentions nothing about World Trade Center 7.

And 9/11 Truth advocates ignore the volume of information from local "on the ground" people who knew it was doomed because of structural damage. I believe WTC 7 issues are a red herring.

Where flight 93 supposedly crashed there was absolutely no plane wreckage found

Please review:
image
image
image
image
image
image

*At the Pentagon there was only one small piece of plane wreckage found

Please review:
image
image

The hole in the pentagon was not big enough for the plane’s engines let alone the planes wings to have impacted.

This can be explained because the targeted section was recently improved and strengthened.

There were secondary explosions inside the Pentagon

This can certainly be expected.

The FBI confiscated all video tape

This remains the single most-important aspect of the Pentagon questions.

*None of the 4 planes’ titanium black boxes were found,

black box

Video evidence shows a “pod”

The only video ever analyzed for this artifact has been exceptionally low-quality and highly compressed digital video and/or screen captures from similar quality video. We have not seen this effect on any original, higher-resolution footage or photos.

The FAA and NORAD stood down and did not send interceptors for an hour

Not correct. It has been confirmed there were military games in progress that morning. They were not ordered to "stand down", there was inaction due to confusion.

7 of the 19 supposed hijackers are still alive.

Not yet confirmed. And of the hijackers supposed to be remaining alive, their names are common enough within their cultures that the possibility of mistaken identities exist.

When Bush was told twice about the planes crashing into the WTC, he calmly remained seated reading “My Pet Goat” for 8 minutes with some school children.

This remains an important item.

FEMA was called in to prepare the night before.

This remains an important item.

11 times the usual amount of put-options were placed on United and American airlines stock the week of 9/11.

The volume was not "11 times", and the timing is not as unusual as many might think. At the time, there was already several financial news reports of trouble within major airlines. We often see such speculative investment in industries where negative news is emerging. However, the volume is somewhat higher than would normally be expected (but not 11 times).


Questions are important. Accurate questions are even more important.

Welcome to ATS freight.

I would agree with the others that you've kind of presented 9/11 CONSPIRACY 101 here...but there was one comment that caught my eye...

Originally posted by freight tomsen
-Investigators discovered Thermite, a demolition material, in the rubble. Also molten metal burned at the base for three weeks (an impossible feat for jet fuel).

Were there actually traces of thermite found, or was it simply "evidence" of thermite...the molten substance?

EDIT TO ADD: thanks Old School...that's what I thought...

[edit on 15-6-2007 by Essedarius]

Thanks Mister Old School for that post helping me get a better grasp on some of the issues. I agree that even after your revisions, it still certainly leaves me believing it to be an inside job. Does anyone posting now think differently and why?

Which investigators found thermite residue in the remains of WTC?

You know, I was all ready to jump all over this, but apparently I don't have to. Fowl play, mister.old.school, and DarkStormCrow already did the job for me.

Well done guys.

well ill take a shot at a few of these, granted ive posted the same links in other threads of late but it still gives an alternative view on some of these points.

Originally posted by freight tomsen-Investigators discovered Thermite, a demolition material, in the rubble. Also molten metal burned at the base for three weeks (an impossible feat for jet fuel).

for some ideas and points to consider on this go here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by freight tomsen
-There are visible blast points of bombs igniting early beneath the collapse of WTC 1 and 2

-There are countless eyewitnesses claiming to hear multiple bombs go off and firefighters describing a chain reaction of bombs layering down from the top in rapid succession.

thoughts on this, with some actual demolitions calculations go here: www.abovetopsecret.com...



as to the 'living highjackers' what would have happened if they had names like "john smith" or "fred anderson"?

besides, are americans really the only ones adept at identity theft?

im by no means saying that the official story is complete...far from it. but there are a lot of 'alternative theories' out there that just dont stand up to real scrutiny when you apply some real facts and logic to them


(these are only my opinions and in no way represent the opinions of any other group or individual unless expressly stated)

Originally posted by behindthescenes
Which investigators found thermite residue in the remains of WTC?

Dr. Steven Jones. Though he claims he found the residue which shows "evidence" of thermate. you know, Sulfur, aluminum, oxides, etc..

Originally posted by Damocles
well ill take a shot at a few of these......
as to the 'living highjackers' what would have happened if they had names like "john smith" or "fred anderson"?

Yes, but atleast one of the 'hijackers' have come forward to say "
Thats my picture and my information, but I didnt fly that plane".
So its not just a case of mistaken identity.

besides, are americans really the only ones adept at identity theft?

Nope, surely not.
But doesnt the FBI have an obligation to find out exactly who was the real person behind the stolen identity?
They (FBI) dont care and refuse to update their official list of hijackers.

Im by no means saying that the official story is complete...far from it. but there are a lot of 'alternative theories' out there that just dont stand up to real scrutiny when you apply some real facts and logic to them

The main 'alternative theory' out there that just doesnt stand up to real scrutiny is the 'official' theory.
All the 'who did it' and 'how did they do that' questions are pointless.
There is more then enough evidence to prove to a grand jury that at the very least 9/11 was allowed to happen.
That is treason, pure and simple.
It doesnt matter what hit the pentagon, or how 'they' brought down the towers, and endless speculation in these areas just allows more time to pass between the criminal act and the prosecution.
If 'they' can keep us all guessing and pointing fingers for a few more years then it really wont matter what we uncover or are able to prove, because the criminals will have already burned down our house (USA) and left us beaten and broken