19th-century weapon found in whale

Incidentally, according to the report I read last night, they're guestimating it's age as 130 because the reason it survived the original harpooning was not that it was somehow able to escape, but because that it was likely a just calf at the time and, as is still the custom, was released.

i would not wager on that. the harpoon was designed with a bomb in it and the bomb was designed to kill an adult whale rather instantaniously. it would have had to been a 'dud' for them to catch him (or her?) alive. of course being caught alive is the prerequisite to being released alive.

Originally posted by selfless
So they shoot at it with out knowing if it's big enough to keep and then once it's been pierced through, they decide to keep it or to let it go?

I think that's seriously sickening, are you sure this is how they proceed?

Well, back in those days they didn't have sonar or modern "fish finders". They pretty much spied a blower and shot. A harpoon, itself, wont kill the whale. It merely secures a line that the whalers use to reel it in. As is my understanding.

EDIT TO ADD:

Originally posted by jprophet420
i would not wager on that. the harpoon was designed with a bomb in it and the bomb was designed to kill an adult whale rather instantaniously. it would have had to been a 'dud' for them to catch him (or her?) alive. of course being caught alive is the prerequisite to being released alive.

Then I stand corrected on my understanding. But the article did say that it was probably a calf when it was first harpooned. Which is true? Beats me.

[edit on 15-6-2007 by Tuning Spork]

Originally posted by stumason

If I dumped you naked in the desert you would die in very short order.

Same in the Arctic.

They use (or at least, did use) natural means to exist. Using animal fur to keep warm for example. In the desert, you would need to cover yourself from the sun, find food and water etc exactly the same as you would in the Arctic.

Well I wouldn't go in the desert nor the arctic.

Originally posted by stumason
Not really. Every veggie I know is anemic. Very little dietary iron in their food, so they need supplements. This is just one thing that can go wrong just surviving off veg.

Well the people you know don't know how to properly eat with out eating meat. Understandable considering people are conditioned from birth to live a certain way. To stop eating meat is like being reborn in terms of knowledge and knowing what to eat.

Originally posted by stumason
It is. Do an experiment for me. Just eat fresh fruit and veg for a month. No soya products, just the veg you would expect to find in your local environment. Not only is the energy content in veg much lower, causing you to eat much more, thus dwindling your food supply, but you would be lacking in essential fats, vitamins and minerals need for survival.

Hmm I think you have a misconception about not eating meat.

It's very much possible to live off just vegetables and grains and nuts etc etc etc.

And remember, soya is just a combination of natural ingredients.

Tofu comes from plants in the Asiatic countries.

There was a time when I had no access to soya types food and tofu and I ate only natural ingredients and I was as healthy as I can be.

Originally posted by stumason
Thats fine. My girlfriend is a veggie and I have this discussion with her frequently. I respect your opinion, but I do enjoy the debate

Veggie another figure of speech?

You are a lucky guy :0

Originally posted by stumason
Hmm. There are many that say we're carnivores and a very small percentage that claim we're not.

I dunno I just did a google search (black box google) and I got a lot of articles that suggests we eat meat because we altered our ways to do it.

Originally posted by stumason
Soya is farmed. Can you farm?

I'm not a farmer but it doesn't matter because I could survive with out it because I have done it before.

I do appreciate the inventions of natural combinations of foods though.

Originally posted by stumason
If, say, society collapsed and there was no organised farming, could you honestly grow AND process soya to provided for the dietary protein, fat and energy requirements for you and your family to keep you going through the winter?

If not, then you must rely on just the local veg. This will not provide sufficient nutrients to keep you alive.

I would learn to do it but I wouldn't even need to.

No I would survive, I'm a living proof of that.

Originally posted by stumason
Agreed, mostly.

Cool, chap :0

Originally posted by stumason

Cancer has been around for as long as humanity and can be found in the animal kingdom as well. Whilst modern living undoubtedly contributes to an increased risk of cancer, it is not the root cause.

Same with other diseases.

Well yeah it's a rule put in place by the scheme of life.

When we experiment into none compatible ideological concepts to our reality, we end up with bad results.

Originally posted by Tuning Spork

Just curious... Is being a vegetarian no longer about survival, but just about the pleasure of killing and the pleasure of the taste of eating a vegetable?

Nar,

I eat to live, I don't live to eat :0

Originally posted by Tuning Spork

Well, back in those days they didn't have sonar or modern "fish finders". They pretty much spied a blower and shot. A harpoon, itself, wont kill the whale. It merely secures a line that the whalers use to reel it in. As is my understanding.

But you said it still happens today, no?

That's what I was asking.

I'd like to say that not only has whale hunting been going on for hundreds, possibly thousands of years in alaska, but it is a primary way of living for those people. Its a distinct part of their culture, and just because it is viewed as immoral by some peta people doesnt mean they should be forced to stop. their quota is small enough that its not hurting the population, and they almost never reach that quota anyway.

Originally posted by BlissfullIgnorance
I'd like to say that not only has whale hunting been going on for hundreds, possibly thousands of years in alaska, but it is a primary way of living for those people.

Just because it's the way they live, doesn't make it right.

Originally posted by BlissfullIgnorance
Its a distinct part of their culture, and just because it is viewed as immoral by some peta people

peta people? what is a peta people?

Originally posted by BlissfullIgnorance
doesnt mean they should be forced to stop.

No one is forcing them to stop but people have the right to think they are in a delusional state of mind for killing whales.

Originally posted by BlissfullIgnorance
their quota is small enough that its not hurting the population, and they almost never reach that quota anyway.

What do you mean by this? It's ok to kill whales as long as it doesn't affect us precious humans is that what you mean?

Try to have some compassion for other life forms, you are not any more special then any other living beings out there.

is this about whale hunting or how amazing it is that a whale lived to be about 130 years old

Calculating a whale's age can be difficult, and is usually gauged by amino acids in the eye lenses. It's rare to find one that has lived more than a century, but experts say the oldest were close to 200 years old.

(from the news story)

The newborn calf is about 4.5 m long and approximately 1000 kg (2,200 lb), growing to 9 m by its first birthday.

The lifespan of a Bowhead was once thought to be 60 to 70 years, similar to other whales. However, discoveries of antique ivory spear points in living whales in 1993, 1995, 1999 and 2007 have triggered further research based on structures in the whale's eye, leading to the reliable conclusion that at least some individuals have lived to be 150–200 years old (another report has said a female at the age of 90 was allegedly still reproductive).

-en.wikipedia.org...

It's not so astonishing to me...

I guess it is unusual for a calf to survive an arrow to the neck designed to even kill adult whales. However, as quoted above, newborn calves can weigh up to 2,200 pounds. Even if the whale was a newborn, 2,200 pounds is hard to penetrate.

Also, their weapons were primitive and fallible because they didn't have the technology we have today.

And apparently this isn't the first time we've found antique spear points in living whales.

Good story nonetheless!

By selfless
No one is forcing them to stop but people have the right to think they are in a delusional state of mind for killing whales.

Ah, I'm going to guess you haven't been within 3000 miles of a whale hunting village up here. You may not have any feeling for how important it is for these people. It was vital for their ancestors and it is not only a part of their past but their connection to their past. They would not take kindly to your wishing to take that away. Suggest you do some reading about Alaskan and arctic culture and history.

Originally posted by plumranch

By selfless
No one is forcing them to stop but people have the right to think they are in a delusional state of mind for killing whales.

Ah, I'm going to guess you haven't been within 3000 miles of a whale hunting village up here. You may not have any feeling for how important it is for these people. It was vital for their ancestors and it is not only a part of their past but their connection to their past. They would not take kindly to your wishing to take that away. Suggest you do some reading about Alaskan and arctic culture and history.

There is no excuse for killing life forms and just because they practiced killing whales a long time ago doesn't make it right.

Just because things were a certain way doesn't mean they have to remain the same. Change is a good thing when the intentions are honorable and pure.

Of course this is just my perception of existence. I am not forcing anyone to stop their ways but I'm not gonna silence my opinion just because others don't agree with my perceived knowledge.

And I stand by what I said. They are in a delusional state of mind that is limited to this planet if they bring them selves to consciously kill whales. (Just my opinion)

[edit on 18-6-2007 by selfless]

By selfless
others don't agree with my perceived knowledge.

Just suggesting that you expand your perceived knowledge to include this part of the world, its people and traditions. You aren't going to change things up here but you may at least broaden your understanding. I'll bet those Alaskan natives would have some choice,non complimentary descriptions for you and your ideas.

Originally posted by PwN3d
is this about whale hunting or how amazing it is that a whale lived to be about 130 years old

I tried asking a question couple pages back but I think this thread was hijacked long time ago.

Originally posted by earth2

Originally posted by PwN3d
is this about whale hunting or how amazing it is that a whale lived to be about 130 years old

I tried asking a question couple pages back but I think this thread was hijacked long time ago.

Well, its a living document thread, that discusses everything from being a Vegan, to a veggie to a carnivore and a herbivore... well i think its just normal to be a Omnivore... you know like natural man, the one that was a hunter/gatharer

While early man ate veggis and fruit off of bushes and trees, man made weapons, weapons that before er used on each other, were pioneered to hunt and kill wild game for food.

In the beginning, before we had crude tools, man was not on top of the food chain, he was the game, and i belive that man was a scavanger on the plains in Africa, this is how man aquired his taste for meat... well unless the snake made man eat the apple off the tree...

but back on topic, while it is a tragady that this whale had to die, it has lent insight into the life of this great animal. In todays world i think it is unnessiscary, if not inhumane, to continue to hunt whales.

As for the tradition argument, there have been a great many traditions that become outdated as our culture and world move on. Look at all that had changed in even this whale lifetime, it was born into a world were one of its natural preditors hunted it with spear from hallowed out cannanos. Now it was killed by man from a motor boat with high powered weapony

Not all world culture are equal, no matter what they told you in school

Originally posted by beezwaxes

Here's a site that lists the life span of a lot of animals. Turkey buzzards & swans surprised me a bit although I think I read somewhere that condors live a long time. Turtles seem to take the prize and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if they lived a lot longer than listed. Metabolism plays a big part in it and some say that a hummingbird that lives maybe three years had the same number of heartbeats as the whale that lived 120 years.
As far as whaling goes, one thing that bugs me about it is Native Americans stating it's their heritage so,they should be permitted to practice it. I say that if it's heritage they are seeking, they should hunt them in a boat they made out of traditional materials in a traditional way with traditional weapons fashioned in the same manner. Going out in a Zodiac with a 150hp merc on the back and shooting a whale with a gun chambered for .50 bmg doesn't seem very traditional to me. I say leave them alone and go buy a Big Mac if you're hungry for blubber.

www.newton.dep.anl.gov...

My Opinion

Well guess what alot of Natives do hunt the way you say, but really I could care less if someone uses modern whaling technology to hunt.

Whale meat is good

By Beezwaxes
As far as whaling goes, one thing that bugs me about it is Native Americans stating it's their heritage so,they should be permitted to practice it. I say that if it's heritage they are seeking, they should hunt them in a boat they made out of traditional materials in a traditional way with traditional weapons fashioned in the same manner.

Do you think it humane to dictate to a native person that he must risk his life by hunting in an inferior boat, with no GPS to keep him from getting lost, using a weapon that may lead to injury to the whale and the hunter?

Originally posted by jprophet420


this point was made earlier, but i'll rephrase and re-iterate:

the tradition of whale hunting does not live to the day 'despite' anything.
point one: the weapon used in the original attempt was modernized, and in fact not traditional.
point 2: the weapon actually used to kill the whale was also modernized.
point 3: i am assuming that the hunt was not traditional either, im sure it was done with a steel boat, GPS, etc etc...

in other words, if this culture can afford modernized whale hunting weapons there is no need to hunt whale.

First of all, yes, you are assuming. Secondly, what, since they have so much ready cash maybe they should they open a McDonald's in the Arctic Circle? If your assumption is true, where do you think they got the cash to buy the equipment, their day jobs? They hunt whale because it is one of the few sources of food in the Arctic, not because of tradition. What do you propose they eat if not whale?

Some of you people are just too intent on forcing your opinions on others. Yes, commercial whaling is wrong, and no longer necessary because we have modern replacements for whale products. But Inuit practice subsistence whaling, there is a difference. The reason whales are so endangered, is because of modern nations like Japan, Russia, and I am sure others, not the Inuit.



Let me guess. You don't believe in the seal hunt either, do you?

[edit on 19-6-2007 by TheComte]

Originally posted by plumranch
Just suggesting that you expand your perceived knowledge to include this part of the world, its people and traditions. You aren't going to change things up here but you may at least broaden your understanding.

My perception has nothing to do with traditions... it comes from within me naturally and I don't force anyone to agree.

I don't need to broaden my understanding because i understand why they kill whales. But just because they have reasons to do it, doesn't make it in the least bit right to do it.(And that's just my opinion)

You know, there are many people who are ''born'' in places where there are traditions that involves killing other life forms and they don't all feel they are obligated to follow in the delusion path of killing.

I was born in a family that loves to eat meat and loves to hunt but that doesn't mean that I have to follow in their footsteps... I rather follow my own natural path, not an influenced one.

Originally posted by plumranch
I'll bet those Alaskan natives would have some choice,non complimentary descriptions for you and your ideas.

And I can tell you that I don't care what they would think of me and i wouldn't want them to care what I think of their ways either.

And that won't change my nature of not wanting to kill other life forms, period.

I think talking about the ethics of killing life forms is related to this thread considering the thread is called, 19th century weapon found in whale.

The killing aspect of the story is not off topic....

When I was criticizing native American whale hunting, I was thinking more along the lines of the lower 48 as that's the only experience I've had with it. -Sorry for not being more specific as it's an important distinction.
As far as surviving in the northern latitudes, yup, tough gig. Reminds me of an old Sam Kinnison skit where he talks about groups asking for donations to help people starving in the desert. The punchline is "why don't they move where there's food?" and is pretty friggin funny if you haven't heard it and yeah I know a lot of them don't have the means and would never think of it in the first place. Just trying to lighten things up a little here.
I have nothing against Native Americans or any other group for that matter. It's certainly tragic what happened to their culture along with countless others throughout time.