Video & Evidence There Was No Controlled Demo

Originally posted by snoopy
Once again, please list all these buildings that suffered more fire damage and more structural damage but remained standing.

And your description of the damage to WTC7 is extremely dishonest. You know you are trying to mislead people by downplaying the damage. All anyone has to do is listen to the firefighters and look at the pictures that the conspiracy tabloids don't show you.

And you pretend the phone call was made right before the collapse. It was made much earlier that day.

And could you please *quote* the part where the commander said to pull the building?

List of buildings with longer burning fires and structyral damage.

www.pleasanthillsfire.org...

1. The One Meridian Plaza Fire
One Meridian Plaza is a 38-floor skyscraper in Philadelphia that suffered a severe fire on February 23, 1991. The fire starting on the 22nd floor, and raged for 18 hours, gutting eight floors and causing an estimated $100 million in direct property loss It was later described by Philadelphia officials as "the most significant fire in this century".

The fire caused window breakage, cracking of granite, and failures of spandrel panel connections. Despite the severity and duration of the fire, as evidenced by the damage the building sustained, no part of the building collapsed.

2. The First Interstate Bank Fire
The First Interstate Bank Building is a 62-story skyscraper in Los Angeles that suffered the worst high-rise fire in the city's history. From the late evening of May 4, 1988 through the early morning of the next day, 64 fire companies battled the blaze, which lasted for 3 1/2 hours. The fire caused extensive window breakage, which complicated firefighting efforts. Large flames jutted out of the building during the blaze. Firefighting efforts resulted in massive water damage to floors below the fire, and the fire gutted offices from the 12th to the 16th floor, and caused extensive smoke damage to floors above. The fire caused an estimated $200 million in direct property loss.

A report by Iklim Ltd. describes the structural damage from the fire:

In spite of a total burnout of four and a half floors, there was no damage to the main structural members and only minor damage to one secondary beam and a small number of floor pans.

3. The 1 New York Plaza Fire
1 New York Plaza is a 50-story office tower less than a mile from the World Trade Center site. It suffered a severe fire and explosion on August 5, 1970. The fire started around 6 PM, and burned for more than 6 hours.

FEMA report, firemen stating 10 floors of building 7 had some damage on 1 side.

www.wtc7.net...

According to the account of a firefighter who walked the 9th floor along the south side following the collapse of WTC 1, the only damage to the 9th floor facade occurred at the southwest corner. According to firefighters' eyewitness accounts from outside of the building, approximately floors 8-18 were damaged to some degree.

Do you have evidence when the phone call was made. Do you think the firechief is going to leave his men in the building while makeing a phone call to Silverstien ?

I put quotation marrks around the important parts.
'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is (pull it.') And (they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.")

So let me get this straight, you think that PULL IT means the firemen and not the building ?


[edit on 17-6-2007 by ULTIMA1]

you can quote all you want in the video its not engulfed in flames.

We made the decision to 'pull' the building...

[edit on 17-6-2007 by jprophet420]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by snoopy
Once again, please list all these buildings that suffered more fire damage and more structural damage but remained standing.

And your description of the damage to WTC7 is extremely dishonest. You know you are trying to mislead people by downplaying the damage. All anyone has to do is listen to the firefighters and look at the pictures that the conspiracy tabloids don't show you.

And you pretend the phone call was made right before the collapse. It was made much earlier that day.

And could you please *quote* the part where the commander said to pull the building?

List of buildings with longer burning fires and structyral damage.

www.pleasanthillsfire.org...

1. The One Meridian Plaza Fire
One Meridian Plaza is a 38-floor skyscraper in Philadelphia that suffered a severe fire on February 23, 1991. The fire starting on the 22nd floor, and raged for 18 hours, gutting eight floors and causing an estimated $100 million in direct property loss It was later described by Philadelphia officials as "the most significant fire in this century".

The fire caused window breakage, cracking of granite, and failures of spandrel panel connections. Despite the severity and duration of the fire, as evidenced by the damage the building sustained, no part of the building collapsed.

2. The First Interstate Bank Fire
The First Interstate Bank Building is a 62-story skyscraper in Los Angeles that suffered the worst high-rise fire in the city's history. From the late evening of May 4, 1988 through the early morning of the next day, 64 fire companies battled the blaze, which lasted for 3 1/2 hours. The fire caused extensive window breakage, which complicated firefighting efforts. Large flames jutted out of the building during the blaze. Firefighting efforts resulted in massive water damage to floors below the fire, and the fire gutted offices from the 12th to the 16th floor, and caused extensive smoke damage to floors above. The fire caused an estimated $200 million in direct property loss.

A report by Iklim Ltd. describes the structural damage from the fire:

In spite of a total burnout of four and a half floors, there was no damage to the main structural members and only minor damage to one secondary beam and a small number of floor pans.

3. The 1 New York Plaza Fire
1 New York Plaza is a 50-story office tower less than a mile from the World Trade Center site. It suffered a severe fire and explosion on August 5, 1970. The fire started around 6 PM, and burned for more than 6 hours.

FEMA report, firemen stating 10 floors of building 7 had some damage on 1 side.

www.wtc7.net...

According to the account of a firefighter who walked the 9th floor along the south side following the collapse of WTC 1, the only damage to the 9th floor facade occurred at the southwest corner. According to firefighters' eyewitness accounts from outside of the building, approximately floors 8-18 were damaged to some degree.

Do you have evidence when the phone call was made. Do you think the firechief is going to leave his men in the building while makeing a phone call to Silverstien ?

I put quotation marrks around the important parts.
'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is (pull it.') And (they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.")

So let me get this straight, you think that PULL IT means the firemen and not the building ?


[edit on 17-6-2007 by ULTIMA1]

So there's the start of your problem. You are only going by a FEMA report. Now go check out the NIST reports (what they have so far) and look at what the firefighters have to say. In the other thread I included just a couple of the hundreds of quotes which show beyond any shadow of a doubt that there was serious damage and fire in WTC 7.

Meridian

38 stories is NOT a skyscraper. It suffered NO stuctural damage as you claimed it did.

"All interior firefighting efforts were halted after almost 11 hours of uninterrupted fire in the building. Consultation with a structural engineer and structural damage observed by units operating in the building led to the belief that there was a possibility of a pancake structural collapse of the fire damaged floors." So as you can see it was in danger of collapsing from only fire. And it didn't have any structural damage, didn't lose it's fire protection, and didn't lose its sprinkler systems.


Your bank ALSO suffered no structural damage. It was a fire on 4 floors that lasted 3 /12 hours. No structural damage, no loss of fire protection, and no loss of sprinkler systems.


New York Plaza

ALSO no structural damage, no loss of fire protection, no loss of sprinkler systems. The fire was so small and short, that people went back to work two hours later. It was also on a single floor (the 19th) and did not last 6 hours.



So I think it's pretty clear that even if your intentions are good, you are being quite dishonest here. You made claims of buildings with worse fires and worse structural damage. And all of these buildings had much less fire and absolutely NO structural damage. This isn't even an issue of misunderstanding, it's simply a case of the claims being untrue.

Well I'd rather trust my eyes than some quotes pulled from a web site.
You can see quite clearly that WTC7 was not a raging inferno when it collapsed, nor can any raging fires be seen in any pics from earlier in the day.

And yes if you want a comparison of what a 'raging fire' is you only have to look at the Madrid building. You only hate that comparison because it's valid.

Originally posted by snoopy
So there's the start of your problem. You are only going by a FEMA report. Now go check out the NIST reports (what they have so far) and look at what the firefighters have to say. In the other thread I included just a couple of the hundreds of quotes which show beyond any shadow of a doubt that there was serious damage and fire in WTC 7
.

I prefer to go by the firechief and firemen reports since they were actually there.

Maybe you need to read the discription again or maybe photos would be better since you seem to have a problem reading.

www.pleasanthillsfire.org...
Fires Have Never Caused Skyscrapers to Collapse

Excepting the three 9-11 collapses, no fire, however severe, has ever caused a steel framed high-rise building to collapse. Following are examples of high-rise fires that were far more severe than those in WTC 1 and 2, and Building 7. In these precedents, the fires consumed multiple floors, produced extensive window breakage, exhibited large areas of emergent flames, and went on for several hours. The fires in the WTC towers did none of these things


The One Meridian Plaza Fire: The fire caused window breakage, cracking of granite, and failures of spandrel panel connections. Despite the severity and duration of the fire, as evidenced by the damage the building sustained, no part of the building collapsed.

The 1 New York Plaza Fire: 1 New York Plaza is a 50-story office tower less than a mile from the World Trade Center site. It suffered a severe fire and explosion on August 5, 1970.

Please show me in the photos that building 7 is fully involved with fire.

i114.photobucket.com...
i114.photobucket.com...
i114.photobucket.com...

Originally posted by Fowl Play
You have clear video evidence that shows the impact area twisting causing total collapse...
Im afraid the more you look into the halfbaked CT's the more they look ridiculous, i know this wont get resolved here, but this video in my eyes is good evidence to back up the official line yet again. If people do really look hard enough they can see the BS for what it is..
A lot of you need to be careful where you point the finger, because this type of unpatriotic abuse will eventually be drawn up in the anti-terror laws..
As if the US would seriously authorize 9/11..
People insinuating such things in history would of been thrown in the tower and hung, drawn and quartered..
Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, but when it can incite hatred against others and its own government, it can border on terrorism.

Dude, the only person looking ridiculous here is you. You may want to take some physics classes. People who don't know the difference between patriotism and nationalism irk me.

And another thing, please allow me to paraphrase, but you said that freedom of speech can border on terrorism! If you do not support freedom of speech for those you despise, then you do not support freedom of speech. You should run for a seat in the Senate.

Originally posted by Fowl Play
You have clear video evidence that shows the impact area twisting causing total collapse...
Im afraid the more you look into the halfbaked CT's the more they look ridiculous, i know this wont get resolved here, but this video in my eyes is good evidence to back up the official line yet again. If people do really look hard enough they can see the BS for what it is..
A lot of you need to be careful where you point the finger, because this type of unpatriotic abuse will eventually be drawn up in the anti-terror laws..
As if the US would seriously authorize 9/11..
People insinuating such things in history would of been thrown in the tower and hung, drawn and quartered..
Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, but when it can incite hatred against others and its own government, it can border on terrorism.

Dude, the only person looking ridiculous here is you. You may want to take some physics classes. People who don't know the difference between patriotism and nationalism irk me.

And another thing, please allow me to paraphrase, but you said that freedom of speech can border on terrorism! If you do not support freedom of speech for those you despise, then you do not support freedom of speech. You should run for a seat in the Senate.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
In these precedents, the fires consumed multiple floors, produced extensive window breakage, exhibited large areas of emergent flames, and went on for several hours. The fires in the WTC towers did none of these things

That's a pretty good point, if there was such an inferno why are there so many windows that are not broken?



It's obvious there was no inferno, and to argue there was is like trying to argue that black is white.

Flight 77 FDR info from NTSB FOIA

I just received 2 CDs from the NTSB in response to a FOIA i sent. It shows information and the animation.

It also has some information on the other flights.

I am reviewing the information now and will post it soon.

Originally posted by JackRuby

Originally posted by Fowl Play
You have clear video evidence that shows the impact area twisting causing total collapse...
Im afraid the more you look into the halfbaked CT's the more they look ridiculous, i know this wont get resolved here, but this video in my eyes is good evidence to back up the official line yet again. If people do really look hard enough they can see the BS for what it is..
A lot of you need to be careful where you point the finger, because this type of unpatriotic abuse will eventually be drawn up in the anti-terror laws..
As if the US would seriously authorize 9/11..
People insinuating such things in history would of been thrown in the tower and hung, drawn and quartered..
Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, but when it can incite hatred against others and its own government, it can border on terrorism.

Dude, the only person looking ridiculous here is you. You may want to take some physics classes. People who don't know the difference between patriotism and nationalism irk me.

And another thing, please allow me to paraphrase, but you said that freedom of speech can border on terrorism! If you do not support freedom of speech for those you despise, then you do not support freedom of speech. You should run for a seat in the Senate.

What i stated, was not neccesarily my belief, but funny enough just the truth..
I am all for conspiracies and real truth.. But when people start posting, out and out lies.. And some of the words told about some Governments are close to Treasonous... again , not my opinion... but fact actually pal.. I think some people should watch what they type on a forum, they would not say the same things in a public speaking room.. It is a safe haven for them so they can spout what lies they like.

Originally posted by jprophet420
you can quote all you want in the video its not engulfed in flames.

We made the decision to 'pull' the building...

[edit on 17-6-2007 by jprophet420]

That quote is not correct.

And when was your video taken? And does that video cover all for sides?

Originally posted by snoopy
That quote is not correct.

And when was your video taken? And does that video cover all for sides?

Silverstein said the incident commander stated "PULL IT" meaning the builidng not the firemen. If he was talking about the firemen he would have said "PULL THEM". By the way Silverstein did not have any authority to tell the commander what to do witht he firemen.

Do you have any videos or photos that show building 7 completely involved in flames as the official story states.


[edit on 17-6-2007 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by snoopy

Originally posted by jprophet420
you can quote all you want in the video its not engulfed in flames.

We made the decision to 'pull' the building...

[edit on 17-6-2007 by jprophet420]

That quote is not correct.

And when was your video taken? And does that video cover all for sides?

I think this quote i posted earlier is significant in the video of Mr Silverstein, i believe he read these reports before doing the interview, If he ha, which surely he must of done, this could be the reason for how he chose his words.

"The biggest decision we had to make on the first day was to clear the area and create a collapse zone around the severely damaged 7 World Trade Center, a 47-story building heavily involved in fire. A number of fire officers and companies assessed the damage to the building. The appraisals indicated that the building's integrity was in serious doubt. I issued the orders to PULL back the firefighters and define the collapse zone. It was a critical decision; we could not lose any more firefighters. It took a lot of time to PULL everyone out, given the emotionalism of the day, communications difficulties, and the collapse terrain." - Fire Chief Daniel Nigro "Report from the Chief of Department," Fire Engineering, 2002, VOL 155; PART 9, pages 56-59

Notice the use of the word "Pull" this was in a 2002 report, could Silverstein be choosing words that he has read in official reports about the incident?
His interview is from after the release of this report. Is this significant?
Could " Pull it" mean pull everyone from the building surrounding area and let the buildinhg collapse?
They knew it was gonna collapse before it did, does this Debunk people knowing it was gonna collapse and even Controlled Demolition? and BBC1 were already told it was coming down , thats why it was reported in advance? Food for thought!!

Originally posted by Fowl Play
Notice the use of the word "Pull" this was in a 2002 report, could Silverstein be choosing words that he has read in official reports about the incident?
His interview is from after the release of this report. Is this significant?
Could " Pull it" mean pull everyone from the building surrounding area and let the buildinhg collapse?

Silverstein said the incident commander stated "PULL IT" meaning the builidng not the firemen. If he was talking about the firemen he would have said "PULL THEM". By the way Silverstein did not have any authority to tell the commander what to do with the firemen.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

I prefer to go by the firechief and firemen reports since they were actually there.

Maybe you need to read the discription again or maybe photos would be better since you seem to have a problem reading.


The One Meridian Plaza Fire: The fire caused window breakage, cracking of granite, and failures of spandrel panel connections. Despite the severity and duration of the fire, as evidenced by the damage the building sustained, no part of the building collapsed.

The 1 New York Plaza Fire: 1 New York Plaza is a 50-story office tower less than a mile from the World Trade Center site. It suffered a severe fire and explosion on August 5, 1970.

Please show me in the photos that building 7 is fully involved with fire.

Some of those quotes WERE from the fire chief and ALL of them were from people who were there on the scene.

And your claim about steel structures never collapsing from fire is also wrong. Maybe YOU need to learn how to read.

And breakage to windows is NO structural damage. That's minor damage resulting from the fire. How on earth do you have the nerve to compare a commercial plane hitting a building to some windows bursting?? Seriously. That's completely out of line.


There are plenty of photos that have been on this forum showing extensive fires, but I already know you will dismiss them. And more importantly the fire fighters who were there at the end when it was too dangerous for photographers is more important than the pictures that show the entire side of the building engulfed.

What time were your photos taken? And would you like some more firemen quotes?

Building #7 was still actively burning and at that time we were advised by a NYFD Chief that building #7 was burning out of control and imminent collapse was probable. –PAPD P.O. Edward McQuade

At Vesey St. and West St., I could see that 7 WTC was ablaze and damaged, along with other buildings. –M. DeFilippis, PAPD P.O

So yeah then we just stayed on Vesey until building Seven came down. There was nothing we could do. The flames were coming out of every window of that building from the explosion of the south tower. So then building Seven came down. When that started coming down you heard that pancaking sound again everyone jumped up and starts.

Because it really got going, that building Seven, saw it late in the day and like the first Seven floors were on fire. It looked like heavy fire on seven floors. It was fully engulfed, that whole building. There were pieces of tower two [sic: he probably means tower one] in building Seven and the corners of the building missing and whatnot. But just looking up at it from ground level however many stories -- it was 40 some odd -- you could see the flames going straight through from one side of the building to the other, that’s an entire block. –Firefighter Tiernach Cassidy


Would you like me to keep going? Because there are hundreds of quotes from the firefighters who were there. There are even interviews with them there on site before the building collapsed saying how it's gonna come down and pointing out why they think that.

But as someone said here, they would rather trust the limited photos and video they see than the experts who were there in person and saw everything.

Originally posted by snoopy
Some of those quotes WERE from the fire chief and ALL of them were from people who were there on the scene.

And your claim about steel structures never collapsing from fire is also wrong. Maybe YOU need to learn how to read.

Please read this and tell me if its not structural damage.

The One Meridian Plaza Fire: The fire caused window breakage, cracking of granite, and failures of spandrel panel connections. Despite the severity and duration of the fire, as evidenced by the damage the building sustained, no part of the building collapsed.

Pleas show me any steel builidng in the US. that has collapsed from fires in the last 30 years.

Please show me any videos or photos that show builidng 7 completly involved by fire.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1


Silverstein said the incident commander stated "PULL IT" meaning the builidng not the firemen. If he was talking about the firemen he would have said "PULL THEM". By the way Silverstein did not have any authority to tell the commander what to do with the firemen.

WRONG.

It refers to the fire fighting contingency. It's not just about men, but an entire effort, including equipment and people other than the firefighters. You're making a big assumption that he meant the building. And if he did mean the building, then he is using improper terminology as pull it in firefighting terms refers to pulling all the men and equipment out.

26 times they made reference to "pull it" referring to the firefighters. yet on this one particular one you think they suddenly meant the building. And what youare saying now is that the firefighters demolished the building. The firefighters killed their fellow men to help with some insurance scam.

Yeah, we had to pull everybody back. It was very difficult. We had to be very forceful in getting the guys out. They didn’t want to come out. There were guys going into areas that I wasn’t even really comfortable with, because of the possibility of secondary collapses. We didn’t know how stable any of this area was. We pulled everybody back probably by 3 or 3:30 in the afternoon. We said, this building is going to come down, get back. It came down about 5 o’clock or so, but we had everybody
backed away by then. –Deputy Chief Peter Hayden

Someone gave a Mayday. I guess it was someone trapped under one of the pedestrian bridges. We started to go under there to look. One of the Chiefs pulled us out of there. He said don't go under there. ..We searched that building and then we started making another move in and we got pulled out again, because I guess the Chiefs were getting more in control of the situation. They pulled everybody out of there...that was probably like four or five o'clock before we stopped. –Firefighter Todd Fredrickson

So let me ask you this, are you accusing the FDNY of being part of this conspiracy? Are you saying that Daniel Nigro was responsible for the demolition?

Originally posted by ULTIMA1


Please read this and tell me if its not structural damage.

The One Meridian Plaza Fire: The fire caused window breakage, cracking of granite, and failures of spandrel panel connections. Despite the severity and duration of the fire, as evidenced by the damage the building sustained, no part of the building collapsed.

Pleas show me any steel builidng in the US. that has collapsed from fires in the last 30 years.

Please show me any videos or photos that show builidng 7 completly involved by fire.

No. It's absolutely not. That's damage resulting form the fire. You are being really dishonest here by trying to pretend that that is the same thing. NONE of the buildings you claim had structural damage have structural damage. This is a deliberate attempt to mislead people.

And even if hypothetically there was a building the same size and design of the WTC that suffered the same structural damage such as being hit by a plane and still didn't collapse? It would NOT prove that it's impossible for the buildings to collapse. Just as there have been steel structures which have collapsed from fire alone. Both those points prove your claim wrong.

Examples (even though it doesn't make any difference in the issue):

The Madrid Hotel. The steel portion of the building collapsed.

The McCormick Center in Chicago

Sight and Sound Theater in Lancaster

Your One Meridian Plaza is a good example in that it was on the verge of collapse from fire alone. And there are others.


I don't think there are any pictures taken that show the whole building engulfed because it happened later on. There are photos of the entire side of the building engulfed in smoke, but you know you've already seen them.

Are you saying the firefighters who were there are all wrong? Are you saying that unless something is captured on video that it doesn't exist?

And another addition to the whole pull it thing is that building 6 was pulled. And it was pulled in the demolition sense (not firefighter sense).

That's right, they attached metal cables to it and "pulled" it down to the side. Now I don't recall seeing WTC 7 pulled down to the side with metal cables like WTC 6 was. Does anyone have pictures of WTC 7 being pulled down to thge side with cables?

Originally posted by snoopy
WRONG.

It refers to the fire fighting contingency. It's not just about men, but an entire effort, including equipment and people other than the firefighters. You're making a big assumption that he meant the building. And if he did mean the building, then he is using improper terminology as pull it in firefighting terms refers to pulling all the men and equipment out.



So let me ask you this, are you accusing the FDNY of being part of this conspiracy? Are you saying that Daniel Nigro was responsible for the demolition?

So what your saying is they used "PULL" when to brought down building 6 but it does mean the same for building 7 ?

The firemen were pulled out by 3:30 the building came down around 5. So your saying that the builidng just happen to wait uintil after the phone call to come down.

I am stating the incident commander decided to PULL the building because he was afraid the building was going to fall and damage more buildings and spread more fire.

Please show me what training you have had in Emergency Incident Mangement. Becasue i have had the training. I was a Federal Police Officer for 12 years.

And do not even say anything about me accusing the firemen of being involved. Thats a tatic people try to use when they do not have enough facts to debate with.