bush adored by Illegal immigrants He's their hero!!

Originally posted by Mailman
This is a big smokescreen to trap these people into fighting a war they have no involvment in? Possibly, just an idea



[edit on 16-6-2007 by Mailman]

I keep hearing this, but I honestly don't see it happening. I tend to think it has more to do with the elite wanting to decimate the Middle Class in this country. I have posted a whole thread on this issue.

The Declining Middle Class and the Coming Civil War

While I don't state explicitly that this whole illegal immigration thing was a part of it, but it certainly was implicit.

Look, I have nothing against Hispanics, but,hey, I don't think that we are obligated to handle the brunt of Mexico's or any other nation's poorest. I just don't.

It's time for some of these other countries to start taking responsibility for their own populace, and quit lathing them off onto others.

I am an illegal immigrant, I was brought to the US as a baby by my parents who were duped into thinking the US was the land of opportunity!

So tell me, Captain America, what is the solution for me? Should I be thrown out of the community I have grown up in, that has shaped me, made me what I am? Should I be thrown out of the US, into a country that I have absolutely no memories of?

Should all the hard work I have undergone to eek out a living be cast aside... the exploitation and low expectations? I paid my way through university working #ty jobs with NO social security number. I have a major in English, but I can't live in the US unless I marry into it, I am useless and criminal in the eyes of right-wing idiots. My degree is useless because I have no social security number so I can't get a legit,decent job. I have broken no law unless you consider the inability of a baby to stop herself being emigrated to another country as a crime.

I know more about the US than most of the citizens, daily I meet people who are ignorant of their own country, culture, history yet I AM SCUM? I have to work 12 hours per night in a #ty restaurant getting groped by drunken assholes who if they realized I was illegal would try to blackmail me into letting them # me. Yes, this is reality for illegals like me. If people find out I am illegal I have to move on, go elsewhere, change my life. What do you suggest should be done to me? Should I be married off to a master who will control my life or thrown out of the country into one where I can't speak the language?

Illegals do the jobs that americans would not do! If you understood economics enough you would know that TVs and other consumer electronics are so cheap because they are manufactured abroad, in exploitative conditions. The same could not be done for your house!! You need cheap labor to make the cheap house for you ON YOUR LAND. Would American citizens work for construction companies for the same wages as illegals? Of course not!! Could Americans afford the houses that they have if all the labor was legal?

The fact of the matter is that illegals are a convenient cheap labor force for the rich in the US, and what's good for the rich is good for everyone else! If it wasn't for this convenient labor force you'd be working for less, everyone would! Wage-slaves throughout the US would be working longer for less if it wasn't for this under-underclass.

Sure I want an end to this, but people have to stop insulting illegals and take a look at themselves and how THEY THEMSELVES benefit from this situation, take a look in the mirror before you insult those who are demeaned and exploited daily and are stripped of all hope, rights and freedom.

You know what, never mind. I give up. Let the country go to hell. No one gives a # anyway.

[edit on 17-6-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

First off, your parents should have went throuh the proper procedures, but they didn't. As far as I'm concerned they're criminals on the run from Justice. Secondly if you think that calling me "Captain America" is an insult then your not as American as you think. Because he's my hero and not just me, but million's of other as well. Thirdly the answer is YES, you should be thrown out of our communitys and our country. So you know alot about our country and our history, so does Osama and Kim Il of (north Korea) but that doesn't give me a heart to recognize them as citizen's in this wonderful country of ours. As for your "we are cheap labor" excuse. There is no job which American citizens won't do! But you say they won't do it as cheap as we will.THAT"S CORRECT!!! If you "Illegal Immigrant's" weren't here we would be paid more for the job and our economy won't be as bad as you all have made it with your presence here.As far as the last statement, you all have not earned those right's, those right's are for the people of the United States. The one's whose family members fought and died for those right's, not for those who fought against us in wars!!!!! This has been General T.

Today I've picked my presidential hopeful, his name is Ron Paul. That is if the powers that be let him run, after all he doesn't stand for the new world order. He's also constitutionally literate. He seems to have good moral standings,with an "America first" attitude.

Originally posted by GeneralT.
Today I've picked my presidential hopeful, his name is Ron Paul.

He may be okay. I don't see him securing our national borders though. He leans to the left too much.

I agree with you on that issue but we can as majority force his hand when and if he is elected. I thank that he would at least try to hear the people's voice on this and other issue's. Thanks for the input! We must give him a chance. I think that he's the best choice we have at this moment in time.

Petty interesting article dealing with Bush and Illegal Aliens.

Bush's Trojan Horse

Thought I'd post it here for ya'll to read since that is the subject of this thread - Bush and Illegals.

Originally posted by GeneralT.
I agree with you on that issue but we can as majority force his hand when and if he is elected. I thank that he would at least try to hear the people's voice on this and other issue's.

GeneralT, if the Bush presidency has shown me anything, it has shown me that the American people have no real control over the decisions that a strong willed leader makes. Look at Bush, he has been vehemently opposed on many issues by his constituents, but he still does as he wishes. "Don't think that we can "force" anyone's hand in much when they become part of the elite.

I will be honest, as of right now, there are only three guys that I'd even consider voting for out of the whole mess that is currently running, from both parties.

1) Ron Paul
2) Mitt Romney
3)Duncan Hunter
3)

That's just about the order I would put them in too, But here's something interesting for you to ponder. What would you think about me General T. running for President? You could just about bet I would listen to the people! I'm not money hungry like those there now. That's just something to ponder! Because I'm really thinking about running. Not this election but the next one.

Originally posted by GeneralT.
That's just about the order I would put them in too, But here's something interesting for you to ponder. What would you think about me General T. running for President? You could just about bet I would listen to the people! I'm not money hungry like those there now. That's just something to ponder! Because I'm really thinking about running. Not this election but the next one.

General, if you have the backing and money to support such a venture, by all means. I mean, you haven't been here long enough for me to completely assess where you stand on a lot of issues, but, if you're convincing enough, hell, I'd vote for you.

Seriously, you are thinking about running in 2012?

[edit on 19-6-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Yes, I'm working on my presidential platform as we speak, my assitants say that discussing issues with the people of our country will help find out where you all stand on those issues. Thanks for your vote of confidence in this matter. It will become clear who I am when the time is right.

I can't help but be struck by the lack of depth in which hot political issues like this are often discussed. Our membership often proves brilliant in other areas, but when it comes to politics, I feel like I'm getting the reader's digest version of last week's Fox News broadcast.

I do not say this to chastise or to insult. I'm just curious: can't we do better?

The pro illegal-immigration side of this debate (I could pretty much narrow that down to one member in this thread actually but the numbers have very little to do with who is actually right) has claimed that we depend on illegal immigrants to keep prices low. I am surprised that none of the opponents of illegal immigration have attempted to refute this. I'm on it.

A healthy economy does not depend on low prices. The GDP in terms of purchasing power parity is a common and mostly useful measure of an economy's strength (I do have some bones to pick with the generality of GDP but that's another issue for now).

The relevant factors are consumption, investment, government spending, trade surplus or deficit, and the consumer price index.
If wages go up, corporate profits go down, but consumer spending goes up. The availability of cash in corporate bank accounts might put upward pressure on interest rates and thus threaten investment, but increased consumer spending can justify the increased risk. If wages and regulations are well managed, the effects can manipulated to achieve positive economic results.

Mechanization offers and additional answer, replacing several unskilled, low paid workers with a few higher paid technically proficient ones, negating the need for a "mudsill class" and the necessary equipment can be produced in excess, creating a valuable export commodity as well as an alternative to unlimited expansion of demand for workers.

We don't need an unlimited, unregulated flow of immigrants, and we certainly don't need them for the purpose of exploiting them. That argument is incredibly disingenuous. Those who do immigrate should be able to aspire to as much as anyone else, and no one should be permitted to exploit them (which is not only harmful to those individuals but to other workers who must compete in the job market).


The opponents of illegal immigration do not get off the hook here either.
The quality of housing and other products has nothing to do with the national origin or immigration status of the workers. What would make an illegal immigrant from Mexico less able to learn the construction trade than any other person? I've known a lot of immigrants in the construction trade. The union guys are usually top notch, regardless of their origin. Immigrant operators drilled, blasted, fed, crushed, and stockpiled rock just as well as citizens in the mines I worked. My brothers are union carpenters and the only nationality-related complaints they ever give me are about Cal Trans inspectors (who are sometimes uncouthe on top of unintelligible, but that's merely culture-shock: the incompetence of Cal Trans knows no demographics).

To what would I attribute poor production from immigrant staffed companies, if in fact there is such a thing (you have, afterall, presented absolutely no evidence of such a phenomenon)? If anything I would infer from the hypothetical decision of a given contractor to go with illegal labor that cutting costs by all means is the paramount concern and that as such skimping on materials, man hours, quality control, etc was to blame. In other words, wealthy American citizens are at fault.

If I walk around on the second story of a home and the floor moves and creaks with my every step, I don't say, "ah-ha! Mexicans!". I say, "Not enough nails." So why wouldn't there be enough nails? Mexicans don't like nails? Or was the foreman rushing his guys to turn out lots of crap instead of a little quality work? One of those two conclusions makes sense. I've got a star for the first person to guess correctly.


Then of course there is the political angle (which is why this belongs in US Politics instead of social issues). Who really gets worked over and who really gets the benefit from amnesty? Those lucky immigrants, finally granted the legal right to be exploited by an unjust arrangement? Or the employers, finally granted the legal right to work those people under conditions that American workers would not tollerate for a lower wage?

And do we really suffer as tax payers, or do we suffer as employees? False documents or just plain made up SSNs are the order of the day for most people who don't have the right to work here, because most major employers (crooked small businesses here and there aside) can't afford the risk of paying under the table. Tyson, Sunkist, etc are not paying their guys under the table- they're too big to get away with a stunt like that regularly. That means a paycheck and taxes taken out of it, and no tax refund. They can claim 8, and do this that and the other, but it aint a flat out free ride, especially where FICA is concerned and the share of the tax base that they shrink is negligible.

We suffer most as employees, particularly young, unskilled Americans who are trying to get their start. As a full time college student who no longer as time to ply his original trade, I know a thing or two about this. Because many large employers have the leverage over illegals to demand much and offer little, the labor market is flooded in other sectors with young, low income, unskilled workers who are willing to put up with ridiculous standards for substandard wages. The employers make the call there, not the immigrants.


A gigantic electric fence and a couple of army divisions will not solve this problem. That "solution" is a red herring put forward by politicians on both sides of the aisle who can endear themselves to constituents and command healthy financial contributions from offending employers as long as the issue endures, and are interested in feeding the controversy while preserving the problem. Anyone who is taken in by their grandstanding and strictly PR bills has no business running for public office General T. If you don't wink and nod when you talk about immigration in D.C. they'll laugh you right out of town.

We need to refine our labor laws, minimum wage, and tax codes so as to eliminate the demand for illegal labor. In every example, from prohibition, to communist crackdowns on religion, to the war on drugs, to the immigration problem, it has been shown again and again that at some price, demand will be met, regardless of attempts to interdict supply. You must curb demand.

If we build a wall, it will probably be built with illegal labor. If we build a demand for legal labor, it will outcompete illegal labor and solve the problem.

Best of all, it's politically practical. It accomplishes conservative goals through liberal means- everyone gets what they want. The people get good jobs and conditions, democrats get to wave the banner of progress for their constituents, republicans get to tout a decrease in illegal immigration as the opportunities begin going to legals only.

Everyone wins. No wonder the current political status quo, which is in the habit of using divisiveness rather than progress as a rallying cry, hasn't tried it.

First off Thanks for your input to my thread,it was truly informative, very well thought out. I will answer your star question it was "the foreman rushing his guys". This is for your thought on my political campaign. It doesn't effect my stance on this issue, whether they laugh at my stance or not. I will stand for those who aren't able to stand there and fill the gap of apathy in the communities.

Originally posted by hippichick
I reckon it's great that the US is being invaded by heaps of "illegals". The US maintains an unwanted presence in many places:- Philippines, Germany, Japan, Turkey, Australia, Great Britain, Cuba, Montenegro, Samoa, Balkans, Afghanistan, Iraq, Rognerik, Bikini and on and on and on - about 150 in all.

When complaining about "illegals" in the US, think about how the rest of the world feels about having goddams on their territory. Onya "illegals"! - give the US some of its own back.

What a crock. We're not over there taking advantage of their social safety nets, as the illegals who come here are. Many of those places you mention, we've been invited to. Some are our allies, and our presence is mutually beneficial.

The difference between us and the illegals is that we give to those other countries, whereas the illegals only take from us.

Maybe you'd like to take your America-hating attitude to one of those 3rd world countries, or to someplace where women don't have it so nice? Someplace where "hippies" are seen as decadent, and are subject to their oppresive 4th century laws?

Originally posted by The Vagabond
The pro illegal-immigration side of this debate (I could pretty much narrow that down to one member in this thread actually but the numbers have very little to do with who is actually right) has claimed that we depend on illegal immigrants to keep prices low. I am surprised that none of the opponents of illegal immigration have attempted to refute this. I'm on it.

Well, people have been told that so many times that most of them sort of believe it. Or maybe they just haven't done the research that you have to refute it. At any rate, when they are silent about it, it's with an uneasy look on their face, as if they have a feeling that something just doesn't sound right with the argument...

One comeback that I use is the fact that there have been hundreds of legal applicants for the jobs where the illegals have been displaced by raids by ICE. For example, the Swift meat packing plants. Lines were out the door and around the corner with people willing to accept the jobs.

So, that illustrates that Americans will do those low-paying jobs. However, unscrupulous employers would rather hire illegals, because they don't need to fill out the paperwork on them, and illegals don't complain about workplace violations.

*SIGH* Nothing. :shk:

[edit on 21-6-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]