If Lee Harvey didnt shoot kennedy, who shot the cop (J. D. Tippit)

I've always been fascinated with JFK conspiracies and I believe that something fishy is going on, especially after seeing the SS getting called off the back of JFKs car.

But I've always wonder what is up with oswald shooting the president then leaving and then shooting the police officer. I just want your opinion on what you think really happen, because I know many believe that there were several shooters and they were all in a gov cover up, but what does killing this cop have to do with the big plot?

There are a few theories on LHO shooting Tippitt. One is that LHO had some idea of what was taking place, knew he was being set up, and shot Tippitt to get away.

Another is that it really wasnt Oswald who shot Tippit. This is supported by witness testimony describing the man arguing with tippit as older and much heavier than LHO. It isnt really a watertight argument, but it does lend some doubt on whether Oswald really did kill Tippit or not.

A more off-the-wall theory (and one that I do not subscribe to, merely have to point it out here) is that Tippit was killed specifically because some people think he resembled JFK, and they used his body as part of a conspiracy to alter wounds/switch bodies/ etc.

Here is a (long) article that deals with this.

www.jfkresearch.com...



[edit on 6/13/2007 by ChiliDog]

I heard the theory that Tippit himself was part of the conspiracy and Oswald was to be a scapegoat. Oswald, though, shot him down and managed to escape, for a while.

Two things come to mind.

He obviously was a loose end that had to be fixed.

Just pure coincidence that a bad guy shot a cop. Hey it happens.

There is also the theory that Tippit himself was the shooter from the grassy knoll. He was a loose end that had to be tied up. There is the pic (pic that the FBI did not take due to it not appearing to have anything on it and then years later it was enlarged and enhanced due to better photography programs) to show the shooter, and once enlarged and enhanced it looks like Tippit. But many say it looks like George Bush SR. did at that time. Heres a link that shows the photo and also gives a lot more interesting photos and details like the tramp photo.

www.jfkresearch.com...

[edit on 15-6-2007 by goose]

I actually went to the 6th Floor Museum in Dallas. It's lack of information on the shooting itself seems proof enough that the Kennedy assassination was in fact a government conspiracy.

Originally posted by goose
There is also the theory that Tippit himself was the shooter from the grassy knoll. He was a loose end that had to be tied up. There is the pic (pic that the FBI did not take due to it not appearing to have anything on it and then years later it was enlarged and enhanced due to better photography programs) to show the shooter, and once enlarged and enhanced it looks like Tippit. But many say it looks like George Bush SR. did at that time. Heres a link that shows the photo and also gives a lot more interesting photos and details like the tramp photo.

www.jfkresearch.com...

[edit on 15-6-2007 by goose]

Even though I dont believe LHO was a lne assassin, I cannot buy into the "badgeman" theory. He's in the wrong position in the photo, for starters, and even if he WASNT, a shot from there wouldnt have done what we see happen to JFK in the z-film. In all probability, Jackie would have been seriously injured by a headshot taken from "badgeman's" position.

A lot of things come up with the jfk assassination that really bug me. This is one of them and the other is how come jackie kennedy was not hit when her face was inches from jfks head when he was shot "from behind" which would put her in a direct line of fire for the bullet exiting his head.


Unless the bullet came from the right (grassy knoll)


And I was just reading through that thread about the ss getting called off, creepy.

It's important to remember that the shootings of JFK and Tippit are two separate crimes. Despite what MSM always assumes, the fact that you committed one crime doesn't mean you automatically did the other.

I've posted a fair amount of the evidence on ATS, but the threads are several years old by now. But briefly, here's my theory of the crime.



1. The real Oswald defected to USSR after his stint in the marines. He probably committed suicide in the SU after a few months (as was briefly reported to the US state dept., but the story was immediately retracted, and "oswald" said he was fine.)

2. LHO was replaced by an English-speaking soviet agent of polish ancestry, who was actually 5 to 8 years older, 2 inches shorter, and nearly 40 pounds lighter than the real LHO. Marina, his soviet wife, didn't suspect anything until they got to the US, since she'd only met the replacement, and not the real LHO.

3. "Oswald" was still working for KGB when he got a job at Chiles, Jaggars, Stovall in Dallas. CJS is a defense contractor that does imaging processing. "Oswald" actually worked in the very darkroom while the spyplane photos of the cuban missle crisis where processed. Workmates in the darkroom complained that he had "russian language newspapers" in his sack lunch, but the FBI never investigated.

4. Jack Ruby was the leader of the cell that was to assassinate JFK. The same weekend LHO defected to SU via Cuba in 1959, Ruby was in Havana, one of a handful of americans with access to cuba.

5. "Oswald" still thought he was working for the KGB; he was led to believe that he was the lookout, up on the 6 floor of the Texas Schoolbook Depository. The real shooter was in a sewer grate under the triple underpass, and shot kennedy in the throat. There was another man, behind the grassy knoll, firing a gun with a similar sound signature, that may have placed several non-lethal rounds.

6. The REAL lookout was behind the picket fence behind the grassy knoll. The real lookout may have been G. Gordon Liddy. The lookout was dressed as a hobo, but had a sophisticated hand-held radio. The DPD officer who detained the three "hobos" minutes before the shooting, saw the radio, but didn't tell the warren commission, because he could give no reason why he didn't confiscate it.

7. When "oswald" got up in the 6th floor, he found the "sniper's nest" set up. One of the cell members handed him the manlicher-carcano, which "oswald" only held by the stock, not the trigger, which is why the only print of his on the gun was the palm print on the butt of the carbine.

8. When the shooting started, "oswald" was enough of a professional spy to realize that he'd been kept in the dark about key elements of the shooting. As a pro, he knew that if he'd been lied to, it was to make him a patsy. "Oswald" immediately fled on foot.

9. "Oswald" took a bus from dealy plaza. He chose a bus that would have taken him to Jack Ruby's apartment, where a car was parked with $50,000 in the trunk (Ruby claimed it was payroll for his nightclub employees). "Oswald" had been shown the money earlier, and told it was his payment, and he would be flown to mexico minutes after the shooting was complete.

10. Minutes after the shooting, the bus carrying "oswald" cannot get through traffic because of the assasination, and turns off its normal route. "Oswald" gets off that bus, and boards another; this one also headed past Ruby's apartment. When this bus is trapped in traffic, "oswald" gets off and proceeds on foot --- in the direction of Ruby's apartment.

11. All airfields in Dallas and Fort Worth have been shut down by the authorities--except for Redbird field, a small private airfield south of the city. A business associate of Jack Ruby finishes fueling his airplane moments before the shooting. He has filed a flight plan for that morning, destination Mexico city. "Oswald" had been shown the flight plan,and told it was his escape route, which he'd follow to Havanna, then to Leningrad by boat.

12. The next day, Friday the 23rd, even after being beaten by the FBI, "oswald" doesn't devulge his true identity. He wants to tell them that he's a soviet agent (he has a piece of paper in his wallet, for a soviet passport). But he begins to realize that he'd been misled, and that Ruby wasn't a Soviet agent, but was working free lance. He also realizes he's the fall guy. He holds out hope the soviets will rescue him, but learns that they are as clueless as the FBI. When he sees Ruby in the basement of the DPD, look on the footage at the look of recognition in his eyes as Oswald steps out of the crowd---and then shoots him down before he can say anything about the truth.

13. The tell-tale piece of evidence is in the Warren Commission Report. I think it's in volume 17. The Dallas police officer who let Ruby into the building said he did so because he knew Ruby, and because Ruby signed in with a press pass. When the log book was checked, the clerk wrote down the press agency as "The Jerusalem Post."

14. The Jerusalem Post is the sole English Only newspaper printed in Israel. It faithfully parrots the party line of the US state department, and is widely believed to be the "house organ" of the CIA in the middle east. Friends of mine have been working for years to show a financial link between Voice of America and the Jerusalem Post, but have so far apparently been unsuccessful.

15. The obvious question is, whether the press pass for The Jerusalem Post was genuine or not. If fake, where did Jack Ruby get it. IF it was real, then that is even more damning evidence that the CIA killed Kennedy; or at least that someone wants to imply CIA involvement.

all the best.


.

Why G. Gordon Liddy?

Why Liddy?


[original post deleted by strangecraft]

I have pulled the information I originally posted about liddy. It is incorrect, and needs to be amended before I post it again.

Scratch liddy as one of the hobos. E. Howard Hunt is often mentioned as a possible hobo, as is Frank Sturgis, but the facts of Liddy's life I posted were incorrect, and don't fit with him being in dallas at the time.

If I find credible sources, I'll post arguments for Liddy's involvement.

In the meantime, I withdraw my comment about liddy. please ignore it. I do my best, but I'm human (sadly).


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[edit on 15-6-2007 by dr_strangecraft]

The badgeman photo is an enhanced photo and was one that the FBI did not confiscate because they thought there was nothing on it, so it is an actual phtograph taken, showing a shooter and others standing on the grassy knoll partially hidden by the tree.

You can see the gun and the puff of smoke from the gun after being fired, so if you don't think he was the shooter, why would he be hiding and firing a gun at the moment the President was assassinated? As to the angle the shooter was above them, and also JFK was in an elevated seat, supposedly to make it easier for the fans to see him, with a scope and a good knowledge of guns and expert shooting skills it would be easy to hit the target.





[edit on 16-6-2007 by goose]

Personally, I don't find the "badgeman" photowork to be persuasive. It looks like sunlight and shadows filtering through the trees to me. I may be wrong; I have been before.

I also believe the evidence and 1987 testimony of the Doctors who received Kennedy at Parkland Hospital in Dallas. I'm convinced that Kennedy's throat wound was the entry wound, after he was shot in the chest.

I don't personally think any bullets fired from the knoll struck either Kennedy or Connelly. One bullet from the 6th floor may have struck Connelly in the back and penetrated his wrist, but it sure wasn't a kill shot from either knoll or SBD.

The wound in Kennedy's cerebellum was huge; what you get from a rifle bullet leaving the body distorted. The throat injury was enlarged later, evidenced by its smooth edges---probably by the autopsy, or by an obfuscator using a scalpel. The three surviving doctors in 87 said the throat wound was small, and the entry wound, until shown the autopsy photo, in which case they said they had been mistaken. (but all three were mistaken THE SAME????)

Either way, none of the killing wounds came from the side, which is why I don't think the "badgeman" matters that much, ultimately.

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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

1. The real Oswald defected to USSR after his stint in the marines. He probably committed suicide in the SU after a few months (as was briefly reported to the US state dept., but the story was immediately retracted, and "oswald" said he was fine.)

Interesting. I had not heard of this report of suicide before. Not that I disbelieve you but do you have a cite?

3. "Oswald" was still working for KGB when he got a job at Chiles, Jaggars, Stovall in Dallas. CJS is a defense contractor that does imaging processing. "Oswald" actually worked in the very darkroom while the spyplane photos of the cuban missle crisis where processed. Workmates in the darkroom complained that he had "russian language newspapers" in his sack lunch, but the FBI never investigated.

I seriously doubt that 'Oswald' ever worked for the KGB. He was like several young Americans sent to the SU to seeming to be defectors, in that era.

4. Jack Ruby was the leader of the cell that was to assassinate JFK. The same weekend LHO defected to SU via Cuba in 1959, Ruby was in Havana, one of a handful of americans with access to cuba.

I -very- seriously doubt that Ruby worked for the KGB.

5. "Oswald" still thought he was working for the KGB; he was led to believe that he was the lookout, up on the 6 floor of the Texas Schoolbook Depository. The real shooter was in a sewer grate under the triple underpass, and shot kennedy in the throat. There was another man, behind the grassy knoll, firing a gun with a similar sound signature, that may have placed several non-lethal rounds.

That's one of my pet theories. That the shot from the Knoll was a decoy and the bullet went into the grass opposite it. I think JBK would have been in the line of fire from any shot made from there. I like the idea of a shot from the storm drain under the triple overpass. The motorcade was moving directly towards it and the target was improving second by second, unlike any shot from the back. However I think there were shots from the roof of the Dal-Tex building (note that later a sabot was found there). I think the shot from the storm grate was a 'wrap up shot' in case the shots from behind failed to get a head shot.

I think Oswald thought he was working for the FBI. The CIA and other factions thought it would be especially ironic for an FBI mole to be the patsy for the shooting.

6. The REAL lookout was behind the picket fence behind the grassy knoll. The real lookout may have been G. Gordon Liddy. The lookout was dressed as a hobo, but had a sophisticated hand-held radio. The DPD officer who detained the three "hobos" minutes before the shooting, saw the radio, but didn't tell the warren commission, because he could give no reason why he didn't confiscate it.

I kind of like the idea that Tippett was involved behind the picket fence.

7. When "oswald" got up in the 6th floor, he found the "sniper's nest" set up. One of the cell members handed him the manlicher-carcano, which "oswald" only held by the stock, not the trigger, which is why the only print of his on the gun was the palm print on the butt of the carbine.

My understanding was that the 'print' was added posthumously and was found on the barrel under the stock.

Uh, you think there was another 'cell member' in the TSBD with Oswald? Wow.

12. The next day, Friday the 23rd, even after being beaten by the FBI, "oswald" doesn't devulge his true identity. He wants to tell them that he's a soviet agent (he has a piece of paper in his wallet, for a soviet passport).

Uh, if you look at the soviet response to the shooting, there is nothing that seems to indicate that they had any involvement. It would have been folly for 'Oswald' to make any admission about being a 'soviet agent'.

Do you have a cite for him having paper in his wallet indicating a Soviet passport? That would have been sheer folly, imo.

13. The tell-tale piece of evidence is in the Warren Commission Report. I think it's in volume 17. The Dallas police officer who let Ruby into the building said he did so because he knew Ruby, and because Ruby signed in with a press pass. When the log book was checked, the clerk wrote down the press agency as "The Jerusalem Post."

Hmm. Didn't know of this. Got a cite?

14. The Jerusalem Post is the sole English Only newspaper printed in Israel. It faithfully parrots the party line of the US state department, and is widely believed to be the "house organ" of the CIA in the middle east. Friends of mine have been working for years to show a financial link between Voice of America and the Jerusalem Post, but have so far apparently been unsuccessful.

Some have postulated that the Mossad was involved.

15. The obvious question is, whether the press pass for The Jerusalem Post was genuine or not. If fake, where did Jack Ruby get it. IF it was real, then that is even more damning evidence that the CIA killed Kennedy; or at least that someone wants to imply CIA involvement.

Good post. I'm not saying you're incorrect, just giving some additional and possibly alternate comments. Thanks!

Originally posted by Badge01

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

1. The real Oswald defected to USSR after his stint in the marines. He probably committed suicide in the SU after a few months (as was briefly reported to the US state dept., but the story was immediately retracted, and "oswald" said he was fine.)

Interesting. I had not heard of this report of suicide before. Not that I disbelieve you but do you have a cite?

I just googled "oswald + suicide". Here's one of the sites with an Oswald biography: jfk-online . If you spend much time studying up on Oswald, you hear a lot of theories about it. I used to play chess with one the members of Oswald's unit in the marines, who has made a pretty serious study of oswald's life.

I seriously doubt that 'Oswald' ever worked for the KGB. He was like several young Americans sent to the SU to seeming to be defectors, in that era.

I'm pretty sure he did work for KGB; but that's just my considered opinion. His wife Marina had an uncle who was a KGB general. LHO espoused a lot of communist rhetoric even while he was still in the marines. If he was an American asset, there would have been no point to him having the job at Chiles, Jagger Stovall. The Soviets would have wanted an agent there. US intel would have found it redundant.

4. Jack Ruby was the leader of the cell that was to assassinate JFK. The same weekend LHO defected to SU via Cuba in 1959, Ruby was in Havana, one of a handful of americans with access to cuba.

I -very- seriously doubt that Ruby worked for the KGB.

He made numerous trips to cuba (on behalf of the Chicago mafia) before the fall of Havana. He was one of only a few Americans allowed to enter after Castro's coup. Why was that? Why was a Dallas strip-club owner also an import/export broker with a communist country? It's unusual, to say the least. . .

I think the shot from the storm grate was a 'wrap up shot' in case the shots from behind failed to get a head shot.

It's the site I'd pick. Back in the late sixties, the city of Dallas cut down all of the live oaks around Dealy Plaza. many locals believe it was because the trees "obscured the view" from the 6th floor of the schoolbook depository. Live Oaks in Texas keep their leaves year round, and a sniper in the TSBD couldn't have had a clear shot until very late in the assasination; even less than the 3 shots in "seven seconds in Dallas" claimed by most investigators."

I think Oswald thought he was working for the FBI. The CIA and other factions thought it would be especially ironic for an FBI mole to be the patsy for the shooting.

I kind of like the idea that Tippett was involved behind the picket fence.

I'm open to it; I don't really know much about the Tippett aspect. But it would fit in with my theory of members of the cell being whacked after their usefulness was complete. "Three can keep a secret--if two of them are dead."

My understanding was that the 'print' was added posthumously and was found on the barrel under the stock.

There's also a right palm print on right of the butt. I think both prints were made when oswald was handed the gun. I think he immediately handed it back, and other prints (of another person) on the trigger and guard were wiped off.

Uh, you think there was another 'cell member' in the TSBD with Oswald? Wow.

Yes I do. Several witnesses who were not staff mentioned people wandering around in the building several weeks before the shooting. Another employee, or a cop, (maybe Tippett) would not have aroused suspicion in the minutes after the building. A cop could have "cleared the floor" during the search for oswald.

Uh, if you look at the soviet response to the shooting, there is nothing that seems to indicate that they had any involvement. It would have been folly for 'Oswald' to make any admission about being a 'soviet agent'.

Do you have a cite for him having paper in his wallet indicating a Soviet passport? That would have been sheer folly, imo.

Like I say, I think their intel asset at Chiles Jagger Stovall was subborned into an assassination attempt, in an effort to implicate them. Not the same as saying the soviets whacked JFK. But they would have been the prime suspects, and a good "fall guy" if a conspiracy was ever brought to light.

The issue of wallets is highly questionable. The Dallas Police took one wallet from "oswald" when he was arrested in Oak cliff. A second wallet materialized, apparently from an illegal FBI search of his rented room in Ruth Paine's home. The one he was arrested with had a handwritten list of numbers, as well as ID for "Alek J. Hidell." I cannot remember well enough to quote specifically from the book, but I know it's covered in Kruscheve Killed Kennedy., including photos of the material. This website details some of the problems with the wallet evidence: home.wi.rr.com...

13. The tell-tale piece of evidence is in the Warren Commission Report. I think it's in volume 17. The Dallas police officer who let Ruby into the building said he did so because he knew Ruby, and because Ruby signed in with a press pass. When the log book was checked, the clerk wrote down the press agency as "The Jerusalem Post."

Hmm. Didn't know of this. Got a cite?

Again, the book "Kruschev Killed Kennedy. It is the one piece of paper that the author didn't include a photograph of. The book has some excellent photos; and, while I don't agree with the author's conclusions, he lays out some of the best evidence. Because the author is british, he was basically ignored by the american conspiracy community.


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edit for layered quotes.

[edit on 16-6-2007 by dr_strangecraft]

Have any of you guys seen a video clip that was called something like "Oswald Alive And Well In Siberia 1980's" or something like that? I've mentioned it before a couple times here on ATS, but I've yet to find anyone else that has seen it and I can't find it anywhere now. When Napster first came out, I found and downloaded it and watched in awe as what looked to be 16mm footage ran of a guy that looked a hell of a lot like Oswald standing in snowy scene smoking a cigarette and talking to several soldiers in Russian, supposedly filmed in Siberia circa 1980's. If ti wasn't him, the likeness was beyond uncanny.
I was on a dial up connection at the time so it took a couple hours, but after I downloaded, I watched it with my wife and went to bed. When I went to burn the video on to a cd the next day, the file had literally vanished from my desktop, and there wasn't even a reference to it my Napster download folder and it wasn't in my recycle bin, it was gone. My wife, unfortunately, was the only other one that saw the footage. I know it sounds crazy but I would take my oath on it. If anybody else has seen or has a copy of that clip, I'd love to know I'm not crazy.

Does anyone here believe the driver of the limo JFK was in was the actual shooter who delivered the final head blow?

from twitchy:
My wife, unfortunately, was the only other one that saw the footage. I know it sounds crazy but I would take my oath on it. If anybody else has seen or has a copy of that clip, I'd love to know I'm not crazy.

Who does your wife work for? .....KGB, CIA... (just kidding).

Sounds like an interesting clip, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was LHO. He could be a ranch-hand at the "Bush Ranch" for all we know.

This whole "JFK" thing will never just lay down and die. Too many people have a little something called "intuition", a sixth sense that is what I like to think of as a "human bulls*#t detector".

Does anyone else agree with me that Jackie should of been shot also from the bullet from behind, because her head with directly in front of JFKs so if he got shot from behind I think she would of been hit.

Originally posted by racerzeke
Does anyone else agree with me that Jackie should of been shot also from the bullet from behind, because her head with directly in front of JFKs so if he got shot from behind I think she would of been hit.

Yeah, I have always wondered about that, when you see footage of Oswalds scope and actually the point of view. You're lucky if you get off 2 shoots while a target is moving. And the Snipers Nest that Oswald was sitting in, would have been difficult for a right handed person such as himself to clearly aim and be set in a correct position. Th spot he "allegedly" picked out was clearly a terrible location for a sniper or assassin, it was way too high, truthfully I would have taken my chance on the 4th or 5th floor if I was desperate such as Lee Harvey as cited in the Warren Reprt, and also there was street that went by the TSBD on the left side, it was a clear getaway for the limo if something went wrong. And of course it did. But not straying off the subject, in my opinion, Officer Tippits murder seem like a back up plan if Oswald wasn't convicted on the presidents murder, the conspirators would certainly do their damnest to get Oswald covicted. However, Jack Ruby took care of that problem, didn't he? I read another theory involving Tippits body and it being switched with Kennedy's because he looked like Kennedy and also Kennedy's body looked like Tippits when it was photographed for the autopsy. Very interesting theory.