A Jewish legend not found in the Pentateuch

According to a Haggada legend the flood was started by the removal of two stars from the Pleiades constellation.
The flood was stopped by the transfer of two stars from the Bear constellation to the Pleiades constellation.
That is why the Bear runs after the Pleiades. She wants her two children back, but she will only get them back in the future world.

www.sacred-texts.com...

What happened to the two stars of the Pleiades?
Were they really stars?




en.wikipedia.org...:InnerSolarSystem-en.png
en.wikipedia.org...

Your joking about this right?? To my limited knowlege the Hebrews were instructed to not do as the nations surrounding them were doing. Among these "doings" was the worship of the sun and the moon and the stars.
Astrology as we know it today. The Hebrews were not to do this. Period!!
This is why it is not found in the Pentateuch.

The sad history as also recorded in the Tanak and into the New Testament is that the Hebrews are recorded as doing precisely this...as the nations surrounding them did. This is one of the reasons the Hebrews lost the land when the diaspora took place in 70 AD.

Doing what the nations surrounding them did ..is the origins of this legend...not from God.

One can find many answers like this to what appears to be contradictions or problems if one knows the bible..Olde and New Testaments and understands the width and breadth of what one is reading.

Thanks,
Orangetom

True. The Israelites were forbidden to practice astrology but this specific legend cannot be proof for star worship. The surrounding nations must have named the constellations and the names would have been common knowledge even to the Hebrews. Today constellations and planets are still named after Pagan sources and the whole world still uses them.

The removal of stars and installation of stars does not sound like astology. It just sounds like an observation in the sky. An antediluvial ancestor could have noted a change in the sky before and after the flood. It's not a sin to be a stargazer, just don't worship them.

God even mentions consellations by name in the book of Job.
Job 38:31-32 mentions four constellation names and it is God doing the talking in these passages.

He mentions these constellations (King James version):
1. Pleiades (Kimah in Hebrew)
2. Orion (Kesil in Hebrew)
3. Mazzaroth
4. Arcturus (Ash in Hebrew-literally meaning, Guardian of the Bear)

The Israelites would have known of the Kimah and Ash constellations because it was mentioned in one of their sacred books. It just so happens that the pagans call them Pleiades and Arcturus (Bear). It's funny how the pagan names got into the King James version.

Not much was recorded in Genesis when you look at how much time passed before Abraham was mentioned. A great deal of detail would have been lost or would have been put in other books that were not meant for the Bible today. Both Peter and Jude quoted from works that are no longer in existence. These could have been the source of the specific legend.

Peter speaks of a Heavens that were of old, and an earth standing out of the water and in the water. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now are reserved for judgement. - 2 Peter 3:5-7

This scripture is saying that the heavens, the physical sky, was different than the heavens in Peter's day.

God is bound by his own Law. He cannot make it rain 40 days and 40 nights without paying for it in some other way. Something physical had to be ruined or offset to make, what was originally good, change course.

Jesus' own death satisfied Law. The Law that Adam and Eve broke. The sting of death is sin and the strength of sin is Law. - 1 Corinthians 15:56


[edit on 12-6-2007 by lostinspace]

lost in space,

INtresting points you make. I am not debating those points. Only that the Hebrews were not to do as the nations around them did.
I dont believe the instruction to the Hebrews was to be ignorant per se.
IF it was important to the Hebrews, I believe that their God would have instructed them on it and this would have been recorded in the Pentateuch.
To my limited knowlege ..neither is there such instruction in the New Testamant

What you see as a pattern which still exists today in various guises...is the worship of the sun and the moon and the stars. The sun in the daytime on the hills and the moon in the valleys at night. This pattern has never died out and is an abomination to God whether the Hebrews or the Christians were doing it. This is the essencee of the pagan pattern of worship and the fertility religions which exist unto this very day. They are attempting to make a comeback under the guise of wisdom and sophism. Even some masquerading as Christianity.

You know Lost in SPace there was a comet visible in the night skys some years back. Hale Bop I think it was called. It made for a very intresting display against the night sky. I looked up at it and said to myself..How neat. How cool. Then I went back to the work I was doing in my garage. As I recall some people went a bit overboard with this event. Not me ...not intrested.

Thanks,
Orangetom

and yet.....read revelation, there's alot of talk in there about the signs in the sky and such...
and well, having two stars disappear from one constellation, then watching two other stars move across the sky from another constellation to it, to me, that would be a sign in the sky, wouldn't it.
have no idea what it would mean, but it would make me kind of wonder if our sun would some day decide to pack up and relocate...

this sounds like it's an old myth to my, maybe based on fact. the myth might be older than the Jewish religion even. maybe someone way back actually saw what looked like this happening....it wasn't anymore against God to notice this than it was for our scientists today to watch a comet. and well, most of us still count on the sun rising to tell us it's morning.

Well, the monotheistic Hebrew religion just didn't spring up from nowhere, that's why God in the Bible is so sensitive about getting them to stop worshipping their old gods and idols, a lot of which came from old Sumerian, Egyptian, and possibly Phoenician mythology. Ba'al, in particular, had quite a strong rep, and it was really hard for God to get them to give him up. Sometimes I think that's why God called them his "chosen people." The Hebrews were such hard cases and backsliders that he chose them to demonstrate that he was powerful enough to get them to give up their old gods and go along with him. It worked for the most part, although the Jews still had a jones for their Cabala, and all that other mystical mathematical stuff, and never quite gave it up.

The Bible itself has references to various Hebrew pagan festivals, like the Harvest festival. It just doesn't go into any great detail about the stories behind them. Pre-Semitic mythology is an interesting field of study.

Suicide Virus,

Yes I agree. Though there are mentions of the Pagan practices and festivities, these are only in passing. The Hebrews are told specifically not to engage in these. They are specifically told not to do as the nations surrounding them did. This is my main point.

The Hebrews have many writings which are not of the Pentateuch to which they often refer. These are not of God...but another god. This is obvious to me.

Also The Hebrews are not the only ones who have such writings. Some of them, even exist in Christianity..unbeknownst to most Christians.

Yes Pre-semitic mythology is intresting. Agree here.

Thanks,
Orangetom

I believe that the scriptures are written in a way to keep certain matters secret. Some things will not be apparent until their fulfillment. Things are hidden for a reason, maybe to keep the unbelievers unaware. God does not want things to be obvious because he wants discernment and the use of people's perceptive powers until the appointed time. Even Jesus said once, that a reader must use understanding when examining the prophecy about the abomination of desolation, as spoken through Daniel the prophet.

Many scriptures are interpreted as unknown, mysterious, symbolic or misunderstood until the facts prove the understanding. I'm trying to show that the scriptures hint about a change in the literal heavens before the Deluge. That is why I am using this Jewish myth as a basis for this reasoning. I see some truth in the myth about the destruction of stars to start the flood and the substitution of other stars to stop the flood. Many scriptures can back up this legend, just as I showed with the book of Peter.
The ancient writers didn't know the difference between stars and planets and so I believe we're talking about planets here, specifically ones in our own solar system.

I think some are confusing astronomy and astrology really....

if early mankind hadn't had charted the stars, noted when and where the sun rose, ect.....they wouldn't have known when to plant, never had learned to travel the seas, ect....
the position of the sun, moon and stars were vital. there's no way that God would have banned their study or observation.

but there's an offshoot, metaphysical branch of astonomy, just like there is to any things...astrology, which tries to interpret the influence that these celestrial object have on our world and personal lives.....it kind of sets up these stars, planets, and such as rulers in a way...something that just might be true.
but, well, the Jewish religion has only one God, one Lord ruling the whole thing. Christianity tells it's followers to be in the world and not of it...
if these objects in our sky do have an influence in the goings on on our planet, well, that influence isn't supposed to be extended over to those who declare Him as Lord. they are not of this world....and are to be immune. Unless of course, they choose to allow themselves to be influenced by them by following their horoscopes and such....

this myth isn't about how any celestrial object has some metaphysical power over life on earth. it's an observation....astronomy, just like watching a comet pass through the night sky, or charting the astriods that pass close to our planet.
it cannot be debunked based on the idea that God told the Isrealites not do the same things their neighbors were doing. Their neighbors were eating also...and sleeping, and probably tending their flocks and growing their crops also...did the Isrealis also stop doing those things? Mankind have been using the position of the stars, sun and moon throughout the ages....and he if hadn't, one thing is for sure, Columbus would never have found America and the US would not exist.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Your joking about this right?? To my limited knowlege the Hebrews were instructed to not do as the nations surrounding them were doing. Among these "doings" was the worship of the sun and the moon and the stars.

Hmm...yeah seems a bit contradicting.
Moses could use magic with his staff/snake, and old pharoah was a sorcerer.
Yep, sounds messed up to me.

Old daniel, he was as messed up.
He could hang with the magicians and do the same things, but of course 'god' was his boss.

Point is Judaism has had astrology, and depending on how you view astrology will greatly affect what astrology is or isnt to you.

Its easy to say that this group does this or does not do this.
Fact is, in each group there is someone who does something...

What does this mean? That all the nice little boxes in the world we create for everything to give it shape and definition - crumble when we realize they are all 'thought' forms made up about a given situation. Even in Christianity which seems co-herent (well depended on what branch you are in, so to speak) you will find that beliefs and understandings between individuals show a gap.

So the whole argument of Judaism teaches this, and Christianity that...well, not quite true. Like someone who tried to tell me what they 'thought' Kabbalah was. You cant tell anyone what anything is, as everyone defines it though their interpretation.

I dont expect this to make sense to anyone. But Im sure someone will catch the flow of it, and realize what we have focused on so long (the polarities of an issue) was kind of the 'wrong' approach.

Peace in your journey.

Dalen

Dalen,

Public schooling right??? Its all good!!! Not quite true...but ......

This is what comes out of our public schooling....grey areas....all religions are the same religion...in the end...

Kaballah....you dont find this in the Pentateuch. Its not there...not authorized. But....for the truth we have to go to these other books..not authorized but we will push them as if they are the new gospel..the truth.

Truth is one of the Names for the God of the Bible. Believers know this. Same thing for the word Peace...also another name for the God of the Bible..both olde and new Testaments.

Kaballah is not there..neither is the Talmud authorized though if you know what you are reading you can see the Hebrews and particularly the Hebrew leadership sneaking the substitute doctrine in and attempting to pass it off as if this new doctrine was the law of Moses..or the Pentateuch.
This is very clear in the Pharisees approaching Jesus with the woman caught in Adultery ..in the very act. It was the Hebrews who were not keeping the Law in all aspects and substituting another law and attempting to pass this off as the Law of Moses. A counterfit..a phony. They had also switched gods by this very act and attempted to pass this off as the God
of Moses when it was not. They boasted of it ..obeying God in all aspects...when they were in fact not doing so ...counterfitting. This is the recorded offense of Israel...over and over...adultery and whoredom.
Believers understand this right from the begining once they know for what to look.
This is Talmud...This is Matthew Henry. Clarence Larkin.Ironsides..commentarys on what the Bible says. Often in contradiction to what the very text of the Word declares. This is also Kaballah.
This is also the direction public education attemtps to take us. Commentarays often contradictory to the Word.

You dont have to be smart to know this. You just have to know a few details and you will spot it over and over and over ad naseum.

You just couple this knowlege with the basic nature of what the bible declares is the best that men can do on their own and it becomes obvoius.

Another thing of great importance..Astrology is not the same thing as Astronomy. Very different. Notice that this has not been mentioned as of yet in this topic line.

I do not travel to the East...up seven steps..but I know what it means ...from the begining of the Word to the last chapter. IF you are versed or trained in this occult dogma you can spot it in the bible from cover to cover..this is what the Hebrews were told not to do yet were seduced into it and sometimes went in willingly.

Many Christians are today doing exactly the same. Also if you are versed or trained in it you can spot it in the news formats and on the television programmning , in movies, radio and of course public education...even among our leaders and politicians ...just as in the days of the Hebrew leadereship. We too have our Pharisees among our leadership. Nothing new under the Sun.

Thanks again to all for their posts,
Orangetom

Bravo! The last couple posts really pulled forth a new aspect of looking at certain points that can and oftenly are blind. Very good food for thought.

and the number one counterfeit is.....
keeping sunday as the Sabbath.

Sunday....many of the nations surrounding the early Isrealites honored their Sun God on Sunday...thus the name.. Sunday!!

God specificallly instructed Moses and his followers to honor the seventh day...Saturday....as a day of rest. and even gives the reason. It would set them apart from those other nations.
So, some Pope long ago decides to make a statement to his followers...that he has the power to change anything that God had ordain...and from what I read, I believe that was the reason given.....and decides that Sunday was the day that should be recognized. the one identifying thing that God himself had sanctioned would set his followers apart from the "pagans"...the Pope did away with.....

and yet.......the pope doesn't have the authority to sanction women preist??

from the day a religion is born, it is corrupted by the many different agandas of man.

according to a Jewish Encyclopedia reference;
found at www.jewishencyclopedia.com...

"" The setting of the Pleiades is said to have been the cause of the Flood...
""

that's a lot different than the other folklore about 2 'stars'
removed from the Pleiades and added to the great bear constellation.
...but he 7 stars of the bear have been since antiquity associated with
the 7 daughters bearing the great coffin, or funeral litter.

both star groups have 7 stars in their cluster/constellation
which seems 'mystically' significant.
but neither star group could be what it is, or was,
if there ever were a repositioning of any two of its constituent stars.





another interesting path one could take in the explaination story
of Pleiades=Flood connection, is one that would take on the 'morality' aspect in a more direct way....
recall how the flood was intended to destroy menkind because of humanitys' descent in debauchery & decadence...?

well,
one could build a modern myth/folklore using this links information
about the ancient world's meaning/characterization of the Pleiades...
source; www.gay-astrology.com...

There has to be some truth in the Haggada legends. Take for instance the section on the Fallen Angels. Many of Christendom has associated the “sons of God” as the sons of Seth and the “daughters of men” as the female offspring of Cain. How would the son’s of Seth produce a unique offspring called “the mighy men of old and of renound?” Something was different about the fathers who produced this offspring. If they were materialized angels than that would make sense. They would be half angel and half human.

www.sacred-texts.com...

The bible book of Peter agrees with this thinking. The angels were cast into Tartarus for going after strange flesh. The Book of Enoch supports this as well. There are so many ancient culures that have legends where the gods come down to earth and produce offspring with human women. Babylonian, Egyptian and Greek have interesting versions to tell. The Babylonian (Chaldean) versions would have come from Shem's family. The Egyptian versions would have come from Ham's family. The Greek versions would have come from Japheth's family. The stories would be twisted and perverted over time, but some bits of truth would still be hidden in them.

Dawnstar,

THe New Testament Sabbath is a person ..not a day. Amazing to me how many Christians cannot think this through.

Sabbath means rest. It also means Peace. These are two of the names of Jesus the Christ for remission of sins. For He is the Sabbath. We rest in him not a day. Day keeping is Olde Testament and we are not under the bondage of the Law. WE are to know the Law but are not bound by it in that way. We are not to be ignorant of it.

Also many pagans, unbelievers, and even some Christians, often mistakenly use the Pope and Rome to represent all of Christianity by default. As if Rome somehow was the spokesperson for all Christinity carte blanche. Not so.
Properly taught Christians know better. They are very few in number, most having been turned just as were the Hebrews of olde into the Traditions of men.
Properly taught believers know that they are to check up on their priests, pastors, teachers, et al..to see if they are teaching the Word of God or the traditions of men.
We are to know the difference.

Also..every New Testament Believer is a priest unto God. A royal priesthood. What use have we for the priesthood of which you describe and lament??

Do you want Judiac pharisees....Hebrews ...or do you want Hellenic Pharisees ...Rome. Take your pick. Which pharisee do you want. Do you actually think a priest ordained by pharisees is something about which to look forward or boast??

Im not just picking on Rome here because there are other flocks around us which are following the same pattern in another guise..still pharisees if you think it through. Rome has no monopoly here..they are just the largest group. People think size matters here. Size justifys default to play through unchallanged. If this were so...the Olde Testament nation of Israel would never have mattered..for they were quite small compared to the Pagan nations surrounding them. The Pagan nations were always larger in size...they still are.

I dont even think most people using the default of Rome even think it through about what they are saying. They are not accustomed to being challanged or made to think it through.

I am saying that for a believer...keeping any day is a counterfit. Keeping Him..every day, all day is the Way. Another of His names , The Way. We are not to observe days, times , months, and years.

Thanks for your post,
Orangetom

[edit on 19-6-2007 by orangetom1999]

[edit on 19-6-2007 by orangetom1999]

to many groups Sunday is the Sabbath, day of rest, and there is strict adherance to the day of rest part.. I kind of think that there was even more adherance to this idea in earlier believers. ya know, like the old laws that forbid the buying and selling on sunday and such. many celebrate Sunday as the Sabbath, not Christ....so, I don't actually buy your argument. I think the idea that the Sabbath is Christ is a newer idea thought up to explain why it falls on the first day of the week instead of the seventh. as for the Roman church not being the spokesmen for Christianity, I tend to think that they were for a very long time, a long enough time to shape the belief system to their liking....not to mention, enforce that belief system....and their Sunday Sabbath throughout their known world.

Sunday being the sabbath is a concept promoted by many clergy in order to fill their attendance and the plates. You are correct in saying that many celebrate Sunday as the Sabbath. They dont know any better nor have they been taught nor are they able to think it through.
Sunday is also the day most peoples have off, many working six days a week. Others often worship on a weekday evening. However, for the bulk of peoples Sunday is their single day off.
People meet as instructed to teach, to preach, to give testimony/witness. To be taught of thier shepard. To Commune together. This usually occurs on their day off.
I will clarify again about Rome..Counterfit, as are many others. Including keeping Sunday as the Sabbath....counterfit. Remember...many pagan customs have also been around a long time. Most Christians have little concept of this history and their clergy are not about to teach them of this pattern or knowlege. To many would make the connection with the origins of what Christians think are Christian holidays/money makers for the clergy. Not so..never was so.
Almost all of what people tend to think are Christian holidays and daykeeping are pagan in origin. Lent, Easter, Christmas, even birthdays...etc etc are of pagan origins. We know this is true by the very commericalism which has surrounded all of these days.

Once again ..the instruction is not to keep a day above another but to keep Him...all day every day.

As to not buying or selling on Sunday..this too is an attempt by the clergy to have a unionized closed shop. It is Olde Testament not New Testament. If you like it is an attempt by the clergy to put us back into Olde Testament Bondage while filling their coffers.

Christ is always the Sabbath. A person and not a day.

You are describing the difference in the Word and the church organization.

The church organization is the path down which men get hijacked or counterfitted into the traditions of men. History is replete with this example. Substitutions or counterfits of the intended practice for power and control by the counterfitters.

THe Word is something quite different. It is simple and not complex in the manner men and mens wisdom are wont to make it by counterfit traditions.

THe OLde Testament and into the New Testament are full of examples of the Hebrews practicing the counterfits..even superimposing these counterfits over the Law of Moses as if they were the Law of Moses. After a sufficient length of time went buy many Hebrews no longer knew the difference....just like most Christians. Prophets were sent to warn them to repent...turn back and go the other way. These prophets were often killed. This continued into the New Testament.

This world is full of counterfits. Much of the Clergy dont want us to know this Truth either...we might look closely at them..the clergy. I have caught many of them at the act of counterfitting.

You need to know that always ...as in the pattern of the Word...there were a remnant ..a minority which God held as His own...who did not follow the traditions of men. Nor did they follow Rome. This minority always had His name on thier lips and in their souls. They have been around since the very first church...and John the Baptist in the River Jordan.
Whenever the traditions of men crept into thier churchs and they could no longer stand it ..they broke away and formed new churchs. This is the pattern of the Lord's churchs. Always a minority and always independent of church organization. They are still here today.

YOu can find evidence of their existance ..not by church organization records but by the records of the church organizations which persecuted them....Rome...and even the Church of England. One thing we know..historically..Pagans are fastidious record keepers.

Foxes book of Martyrs. John Foxe

One more thing about counterfits and the politics which surround counterfits. The political technique of counterfits and countefitters is to maintain the counterfit by having those indoctrinated in the counterfit debating and utilizing a placebo to keep them off the main Truth. Debating which day is the Sabbath is a placebo..used by the organization to keep people spinning thier wheels such that they never see the simple Truth of a concept. They never want Light put upon thier activities.
ONe can apply this to many of the Traditions of Men in order to see the counterfit. You just have to know the pattern and be able to think outside what they want you to know.
This is the danger of Gods Word. It allows those versed in it to think outside of the counterfit organizations of men and to spot the placebo.

Thanks for your post,
Orangetom

The Sabbath observance has been done away with because Christ Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law. We should be worshipping God seven days a week now because of the Sacrifice.

Why do you think God decided to divide the creation days into Six Days and then to rest on the Seventh?

The bible is written from a human's perspective eventhough it is inspired by Spirit. God is even mentioned as having a heart when in fact he has no physical heart. The angels are envisioned as having wings when in fact they have no physical wings. There is the unimaginable finite and the infinite in the spirit realm, there are no constant numeric values. The numbers are for man.

The bible speaks of many important numbers for man to remember. Revelation brings up the numbers 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 10, 12 and 24. The number seven is used the most in the bible. The importance of the number seven did not end with the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Revelation speaks of the Seven churches, Seven stars, Seven golden candlesticks, Seven bowls, Seven thunders, Seven seals and more. The number Seven is still going to play a part in the future world.

lostinspace,

You have me chuckling to myself in reading this part of your post

The angels are envisioned as having wings when in fact they have no physical wings.

For many years I bought into that tradition of men that angels had wings...angels were even babys with wings.

Lo and behold, in process of time, I found myself at the Richmond Fine Arts Museum in Richmond, Virginia. I was there to see thier wonderful collection of Faberge Eggs...and they are exquisite. Quite remarkable.
But there in the entrance in on the floor behind the ropes was a fresco from the Roman city of Pompei. What do we find on it but a circular wreath with little baby angels on it with little baby wings. This was not Christian. Other than in photos..National Geographic and such.. this was the first time I had actually seen such a fresco. It stayed in my mind for the very reasons you aptly state in your above quote.

All descriptions of angels in the Bible are males with no wings. Amazing what traditions and counterfits one can find out here when contrasted withe the Word.

Thanks for reminding me of this museum artifact.

Orangetom