Conquered Native Americans?

Good post, I couldn't agree more. I live in New Mexico, and no matter how many billions the Mescalero Apache Indians make with their casinos, their reservations are still sewage dumps. They get to vote as Americans, yet they don't have to follow our rules.

And naturally, there are no white trailer trash where you live in America? So it's just a Native problem.

What a waste of air for them to go on breathing air that would better serve the upstanding members of society, huh? White, Anglo-Saxon Protestants- real Americans.

Start handing out the brown shirts.

The reservations, and "privlages" that the natives have ... were given/forced on the natives by the conquerers and were not demanded by the natives. The natives fought from one shore to the other and were nearly wiped out for it. The fact that the US government made deals with the natives is a testament to the difficulty of getting rid of the natives. So all I can add to this is that the natives didnt lay down and die, nor did they go willingly into servitude or slavery...what was given to the natives in terms of land and "privlages" are spoils of war in my opinion and well earned.


Id like to add that im 1/4 ojibwe...I pay taxes even though i dont have to. I have land on reservation that i dont live on...mainly because reservations arent that great to be on. The casinos for the most part dont benefit the most of the common natives....ive never received money from a native-run casino. So what if there are native casinos that make billions?...Casinos are the only thing natives have...natives have casinos...white people HAVE EVERY OTHER INDUSTRY. lmao.


I think with all the problems in the world one of the last things anyone should be worrying about is what the natives have that you dont.

[edit on 10/6/07 by Pfeil]

Funny thing is that when I last attended college the Financial Aid advisor took one look at me and suggested that I apply for Native American grants and scholarships. Dispite obvious physical appearances I do not qualify because I could not prove enough percentage of blood descendant nor do I have paperwork that any tribe (Cherokee in my case) has offically and legally claimed me.

Anyway the only existing tribe that never signed a formal peace treaty with the US was the Seminole. After losing 1400 troops andspending around $20 million over ten years to forcefully remove them from Florida, the US gave up and left them the Everglades.

I have an ancestor that was killed by marauding renegades. He was killed while building his home on land legally and honestly acquired in a negotiated trade from the local tribe.

I am entitled to compensation.

Dave, if you feel that you have a war related claim, take it to court. The Native peoples have had to fight through the system for years, and when a claim is brought, you can hope to see it finished in just a few short decades, if it goes like the ones Natives have pressed in the past.

Good luck.

Originally posted by twitchy
Well when you wipe out a culture, murder women and children, stomp babies to save bullets, intentionally infect them with communicable diseases like small pox and steal their land by renigging on treaty after treaty, sometimes (almost never, but soemtimes) some of the offending people feel bad for the victims and an effort is made to compensate them for it. Yeah it's hard on you to let them have some assemblance of their lives back, but sometimes it's just the right thing to do.

Yet...........they are still shaking them down. See the Jack Abramhoff corruption scandal whereby the feds and greedy corporate types are still trying to rape them.

I am fortunate enough now to be vacationing in new mexico, arizona and utah and am spending most of my time on navajo land. This is some of the most beautiful terrain and people that this country has to offer. It would be a shame to lose this culture. These people are indeed very poor but have a sense of pride like no other i have seen. I would quit my job in a hearbeat and marry a navajo indian woman just to have the privilege of being around this land and these people. They may be poor, but their lives are much richer than ours. I know if i have a choice between living in DC with all the hustle and bustle and problems or living in new mexico/arizona surrounded by the most beautiful vistas I have ever seen then it would be no choice for me at all. Now all I have to do is find me a nice, hot little indian girl

i have distant, long dead, native relatives in my family... but i don't agree with special treatment by the US government.

just as the "europeans" took over the native land, the natives used to battle each other and take over the land of other tribes as well. complete with slaughter, torture and baby killing. not to mention that many cultures indigenous to this land would kill their own children and cut out their hearts as an offer to appease certain gods of the earth. but that's another subject.

there are plenty of American government based opportunities for poor people. it is up to people to educate themselves and rise above poverty. not only do a lot of tribes fail to take advantage of our system, they also fail to take advantage of their own special circumstances we have given them.

as far as the casinos... lol. i'm in the gaming business, and all i'll really say is that native gaming (and pretty much all forms of gaming) is a sham.

Originally posted by Escrotumus
I am fortunate enough now to be vacationing in new mexico, arizona and utah and am spending most of my time on navajo land. This is some of the most beautiful terrain and people that this country has to offer. It would be a shame to lose this culture. These people are indeed very poor but have a sense of pride like no other i have seen. I would quit my job in a hearbeat and marry a navajo indian woman just to have the privilege of being around this land and these people. They may be poor, but their lives are much richer than ours. I know if i have a choice between living in DC with all the hustle and bustle and problems or living in new mexico/arizona surrounded by the most beautiful vistas I have ever seen then it would be no choice for me at all. Now all I have to do is find me a nice, hot little indian girl

I agree with you Escrotumus. I've been to the same states on the Navajo reservation and unfortunately the part in Arizona is very desert-like, most of it. Many people living on the reservation have no running water, much less the comfort we enjoy. They are indeed very poor.

The grass is always greener....

And your life is as happy and peaceful as you make it, if you want to go live in the middle of woods because its less stressful then do it. But I assure you that you just cant see all the benefits you have in your own life, and you probably take most things for granted.

[edit on 11-6-2007 by drk3p]

There have been many valid points made so far, but I'm seeing a bit of nasty coming out of the closet here. Part of the problem is that you can't talk about American and Canadian First Nations at the same time. They are two totally different and distinct cases. In this I am speaking of the Canadian Nations, not the American Nations.
There were treaties signed years ago by the government and the tribal elders. These were to save time for the British and to save their culture and lives for the tribes. That these treaties should be honoured is not a question for debate. They are legal contracts and should be treated as such.
The problem that I beleive that drk3p is referring to is the abuse of treaty rights and the constant push to renegotiate these treaties in modern terms. This has caused the creation of two new territories within Canada and a great deal of dissatisfaction among the general populace.
There have been terrible things done in the past with the residential schools, but that is a separate issue that has been dealt with in the courts. The victims and families have been compensated by the church and government under a court order.
That leaves the issue of renegotiating treaties and treaty rights abuse.
IMO the treaties should stand and not be renegotiated just because the Tribal Band Council wants more of something. They usually receive a monthly payment from the government for use by the Tribe as well as individual moneys. As well, they reveive free health care, dental, education including post secondary, no taxes on goods within their lands, no property taxes, and no income taxes.
If I am in error on this, please feel free to politely correct me.
In this situation, they are free to run the governing of their lands and people. The possible exception being when they are in violation of Canadian law. But this is handled by the criminal courts or mediation between the courts and the Tribal Elders.
Now poverty is not something that is a condition of being a member of a tribe in Canada. It is dependant on the Tribal Band Council and the way things are run on the Tribal Reserve.
I have personally seen a reserve in Northern Ontario that looked like the worst parts of the third world. We were up there to look over and bid on the construction of some houses on the reserve. The money was good, but we backed out. The people would live in a house until something broke down and then trash the place. When it was condemed, they would move into a new one. It was an appalling waste of resources and not something we wanted to be involved in.
On the other hand, I used to spend time on the Delaware Reserve in Southern Ontario. It was a well run community, governed and policed by the Tribe. It was like any other middle class suburb, except that you had to be a member of the Delaware Tribe to live there. When they needed to expand, they would buy land adjacent to them and then apply for the status for that section. No screaming and whining on TV.
The thing that burns me up is the abuse of treaty rights that I've seen over the years. Large scale hunting of moose and deer with freezer trucks out of season in Saskatchewan. Mesh netting an entire river for salmon in Ontario. Market fishing for lobsters without a license out east. And the lobster fishery wasn't a treaty right, as their ancestors wouldn't have anything to do with lobster. Just because one tribe behaves honourably doesn't mean that they all do.

Originally posted by drk3p
The grass is always greener....

And your life is as happy and peaceful as you make it, if you want to go live in the middle of woods because its less stressful then do it. But I assure you that you just cant see all the benefits you have in your own life, and you probably take most things for granted.

[edit on 11-6-2007 by drk3p]

I actually would love to myself. What you don't realize is how UNHAPPY most people are, even with technology and convenience. I see it all the time. People in 'society' bury themselves in debt trying to 'enjoy' life. A spiffy car, that fancy furniture, that HDtv, oh wait, don't forget the expensive shoes! Now let's add cable, movies, expensive restaurants ... it adds up. Yes, if you have the spare money to enjoy those things, no problem. The problem is, people are soaked with advertisement of how that is the life for all.

I have learned a valuable lesson in life, and am proud of it. I used to covet all those shiny toys. But I was like most others ... once the toy got a little wear, a new toy was out and gosh, did I want it. Now, I am just the opposite. I gave away my nice tv, I am almost ready to give up this internet nonsense full of racists and bigots. I stopped caring for things, and started caring about the people in my life that matter. That is what is really important. Not the a/c, the $100 an entree meals ... none of that.

Just because you know some natives that have jumped into today's society, there are a lot of them that prefer the more peaceful and loving way of life, by being one with nature. Something apparently the 'white' man cannot do. These few reserves is all they have left of land that was stolen from them by blood and disease.

I would happily join a native american tribe if they would allow it. I feel that is how I want to live my life.

It is quite shameful for you to be so discrediting to a people and claim such discriminatory and derogatory remarks. How asinine of you to say that they are lazy and only spend their time doing drugs and drinking. Who died and made you Queen. Whether or not they do drugs, if not for you to judge that lifestyle. Guess what, ever taken tylenol? You are a drug addict. Drink soda or coffee? Drug addict. It is all perspective. Non-native societies are hooked on drugs. If you can't see that it is a cherry-picked lot of chemical drugs, then you are blind. Maybe you need to look at life from a different perspective. Either you are naturally hateful, or someone has done a number on your brain and twisted your logic so far off, I have pity for your soul.

How about this. I will come to you house, you agree I can visit. You say its time to leave, I give you smallpox and take your house. It is mine now. Your kids can live under a carport I will put in the corner of the back yard. Fair enough, right? Same thing as was done to the natives ... inuits, indians, whatever.

You want everyone to be equal? Then leave them alone to believe and feel what they want on their land. You worry about your own backside.

You are mad about a scholarship/grant? You should have studied harder. Don't put your burden on someone else. You make your own bed, lay in it. A lot of people work hard from all nationalities to put themselves through school, some two or three jobs. You won't get far in life if you want everything handed to you on a silver platter. The struggle build character. Something young people lack today.

I could have gotten a scholarship for being part Italian, or part German. Maybe you are not looking hard enough for what YOU can get, and are too busy being concerned crying unfair. Keep you nose in your life and business and you may have less to whine about.

I have nothing personal against you, just your hateful attitude towards a group of people that have suffered enough atrocities over time and you just want, like another poster said, to finish your ancestor's conquest.

Just because the people who they made the treaties with have passed on, doesn't mean that the families that have lived on under that treaty have no right. If so, then why even call yourself Canada, you yourself didn't sign those documents. You are just territories of Great Britain, correct? Any previous agreements, and laws you have made for yourself separating you, is null and void and you better be ready for the Euro and agreeing to all the rules and regulations of the European union that your country has joined. This would be the newest and very recent (your lifetime) agreement. By your thought, you must commit yourself fully to those obligations. It doesn't matter in 1867 (is that right?) you had a constitution of your own. Remember, those things are meant to change by your own standards.



Just remember, do unto others, as you would have done unto you. Void a contract, if you wish an equal contract to be voided against you. Show hate, and the anger will only come back and hit you in the face.

When you learn, being equal is not living the same life, with the same values, same practices, etc. but to respect each person with the respect you would have given to you or your family ... then you will understand. But, some of the stuff you have said earlier sounds like Nazi propaganda, not saying you are one, it is just reminiscent of a third reich (sp?)

This thread troubles me, mainly because it's always sad to see an individual speaking from ignorance and not from their intellect and reason. If drk3p had taken some time to research his/her concerns, I'm sure they'd find the issue far more complex.

I flagged this thread for the responses. Some of them were well thought out and spoke of a real knowledge of Native history and issues. I can only hope the original poster reads and researches some of data contained in this thread and bases an opinion on that.

In short, use your mind. Research and don't speak from hate and misunderstanding. Scapegoating a minority or ethnic group is the first step in placing the shackles on your own wrists. History is proof of that.

Originally posted by twitchy
Well when you wipe out a culture, murder women and children, stomp babies to save bullets, intentionally infect them with communicable diseases like small pox and steal their land by renigging on treaty after treaty, sometimes (almost never, but soemtimes) some of the offending people feel bad for the victims and an effort is made to compensate them for it. Yeah it's hard on you to let them have some assemblance of their lives back, but sometimes it's just the right thing to do.

Well said twitchy! I am part Cherokee and could not have said it better...

This is done in an effort to make mute their claims of ownership. It is so they dont get wise to the fact that legally and ethicall they were a soveriegn nation or nations within an accepted way of life. Euorpeans did more than settle here, they conquered, and also simultaniously committed genocide. The jews argue similar restitutions for the abuse incurred durring WW2. It is a valid argument since profit was gained from said venture of conquest, and said profit still exists today in varrying forms, which if history is to beleived was obtained illegally. What do you do with confiscated nazigold. Give it to germans because it has a symbol of their nation all over it, no you give it back to those it wass illegally taken from. Simmilarly if one wants to be empowered by legal means today, restitution for natives' loses must be made, or openly denied to all who live in less faverable conditions due directly form agression of european nations.

I have to speak up here. the problem is not the money or land they are given? the problem is not the lack of taxes or the crappy casinos and tax free smokes?

the natives were given their land to be able to continue their original lifestyle that was bombarded by protestant murderers.

THE PROBLEM is that they/we never did that! The people you are bitching about are the ones living in a nation of dollars, and not skinning buffalo to make a new piece of clothing and tools from bone.

THAT is the problem isn't it?

How about this? Give the land to the natives who still live like natives, and assimilate the neo-natives into the society they are taking advantage of.

-Disgruntled Cherokee

My Opinion

drk3p heres my opinion

First Nations have alot of swing in the government? LOL come on yuppers we have so much swing in the government First Nations are actually the secret shadow government man!

Yuppers the goal of the First Nations culture is to get reperations man, we spend every minute of the day plotting on how we can get more money LOL

Ohhhh all those extra benefits we get? it's not like we pay any taxes on anything at all, it's not like the government still makes the first nations pay GST or income tax on money not earned on the reserve, like every First Nations person works on the reserve eh LOL.

Oh no roads arent being fixed? mine arent either suprisingly, my car just recently disappeared into the pothole down the street (kidding), oh and Politicians dont need raises? ever head of inflation? cost of livings going up up up.

LOL common theres grants for everyone, people of every different desent gender, etc just sheck your local government listings.

Yeah First Nations do get post secondary, but hey I guess the former Governments shouldnt have signed those treaties (Contracts) and maybe if they had been smarter they would have put time limits in the contracts but since they figured we'd all be dead by that time next year LOL I guess they said heck with it.

LOL no theres nothing special about First Nations, going on burial ground wont cause anything to haunt you, shaman dont produce special effects with light when they dance around but seriously First Nations people dont have the same oppotunities as everyone else.

why? well I dont mean to whine and moan but there are alot of racist people who wont hire First Nations people, Police will target First Nations people and end up getting charged for things nobody else would get charged with.

sorry for the whining and moaning just I guess thats how the cookie crumbles.

LOL comparing witch burnings to Native Culture LOL well how about the taste of apples? they taste as good as snake berries LOL

But hey this is all just my opinion as guess what everyone has one!

My Opinions

Originally posted by Direwolf
There have been many valid points made so far, but I'm seeing a bit of nasty coming out of the closet here. Part of the problem is that you can't talk about American and Canadian First Nations at the same time. They are two totally different and distinct cases. In this I am speaking of the Canadian Nations, not the American Nations.
There were treaties signed years ago by the government and the tribal elders. These were to save time for the British and to save their culture and lives for the tribes. That these treaties should be honoured is not a question for debate. They are legal contracts and should be treated as such.
The problem that I beleive that drk3p is referring to is the abuse of treaty rights and the constant push to renegotiate these treaties in modern terms.

Huh? what regnegotians? just trying to het them to honour the original ones man.

This has caused the creation of two new territories within Canada and a great deal of dissatisfaction among the general populace.

huh? who was angry about Nunuvat? it's not like much others then the inuit live there and they arent covered by treaties.

There have been terrible things done in the past with the residential schools, but that is a separate issue that has been dealt with in the courts. The victims and families have been compensated by the church and government under a court order.

Nope, no compensation from anyone yet at least nobody I;ve heard of.

That leaves the issue of renegotiating treaties and treaty rights abuse.
IMO the treaties should stand and not be renegotiated just because the Tribal Band Council wants more of something. They usually receive a monthly payment from the government for use by the Tribe as well as individual moneys. As well, they reveive free health care, dental, education including post secondary, no taxes on goods within their lands, no property taxes, and no income taxes.

yes on our own lands which conpromise a very tiny chunk of Canada, and they tax the post secondary students because college isnt on the reserve.

In this situation, they are free to run the governing of their lands and people. The possible exception being when they are in violation of Canadian law. But this is handled by the criminal courts or mediation between the courts and the Tribal Elders.

huh tribal elders? Band council you must mean whiich may have elders.


This my opinion because everyone has one

My Opinions

Now poverty is not something that is a condition of being a member of a tribe in Canada. It is dependant on the Tribal Band Council and the way things are run on the Tribal Reserve.

And how hard people work.

I have personally seen a reserve in Northern Ontario that looked like the worst parts of the third world. We were up there to look over and bid on the construction of some houses on the reserve. The money was good, but we backed out. The people would live in a house until something broke down and then trash the place. When it was condemed, they would move into a new one. It was an appalling waste of resources and not something we wanted to be involved in.

Huh really, you mean the Government just allowed people to waste money and trash houses and just move into new ones all the time? sorry thats sounds suspect to me, only a finite amount of money is given for constuction of homes on reserves, so if they trash up their house then they have to wait another 30 years for another low interest loan.


On the other hand, I used to spend time on the Delaware Reserve in Southern Ontario. It was a well run community, governed and policed by the Tribe. It was like any other middle class suburb, except that you had to be a member of the Delaware Tribe to live there. When they needed to expand, they would buy land adjacent to them and then apply for the status for that section. No screaming and whining on TV.

Apples to oranges again.

The thing that burns me up is the abuse of treaty rights that I've seen over the years. Large scale hunting of moose and deer with freezer trucks out of season in Saskatchewan.

Deers tasty and Natives just dont eat deer one time of the year.

Mesh netting an entire river for salmon in Ontario.

An entire river whoooooathos must be huge nets man.

Market fishing for lobsters without a license out east. And the lobster fishery wasn't a treaty right, as their ancestors wouldn't have anything to do with lobster. Just because one tribe behaves honourably doesn't mean that they all do.

Nothing to do with those tasty crustaceans?
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this are my opinions have a great day