Conquered Native Americans?

I have a question to pose.

Do you think its about time everyone was treated as equals?
Cant we all just get in the same boat?

I'm in Canada and there are a lot of "rights" and privileges that Native Americans", or "First Nations" get because they were conquered.
But they weren't really conquered, because if they were, they would be apart of our society, and be treated like all us other shlubs who aren't in charge.

Why can't society declare Natives officially conquered and apart of whatever country they are living in?
Why do they need their own land, reserves, and casino's?
Because they arrived to North America first? So what, doesn't matter, Europeans came and took over. And thats fine, its apart of the world, just as those Europeans came in and made North America their home, now its time for the rest of the world to do the same, and you don't see me marching around demanding my own land and tax exemptions because my ancestors were in North America before everyone else came over.

But maybe I should be, maybe we should just make the world a place where everyone is special and deserves to be treated spoiled just because they are who they are.

Then again, isn't that what racism is about? Treating people differently because they are different?

Well when you wipe out a culture, murder women and children, stomp babies to save bullets, intentionally infect them with communicable diseases like small pox and steal their land by renigging on treaty after treaty, sometimes (almost never, but soemtimes) some of the offending people feel bad for the victims and an effort is made to compensate them for it. Yeah it's hard on you to let them have some assemblance of their lives back, but sometimes it's just the right thing to do.

drk3p, Did any of your ancestors sign treaties with the government? Were those treaties sign to cease hostilities on both sides? Were your ancestors recognized by the government as a nation in those treaties?

When you graduate from the fifth grade and enter middle school, you'll have a chance to learn all kinds of neat stuff like this.

If you read up on how the Native Americans are treated (and have been treated), also if you learned more about their culture, you might understand why they need to have their own land. Their spiritual veiws are so different from mainstream that it would be impossible for them to continue to live the way they want to without having their own land. They are also some of the poorest people on the planet, which is why they need things like casinos, to make some money.
I doubt it would change anything either way if they were declared "conquered".

In your own country, as well as the U.S., many First People had their families separated and that was only in the '50's and '60's. THe children were taken from them simply because they were "savages" and weren't allowed to speak their native language and the children were taken, many as old as 6 to 8 y.o., and placed with strangers, white families who could "civilize" them.

The casinos aren't supported by your tax dollars, and in fact, it is a tradition that most tribes with casinos actually put some positive things in to the community, such as donating to schools, libraries and helping on other civic projects. They do this with the income from the casinos. And their lands are almost always on the poorest pieces of land. If something like oil is discosvered, the land is usually taken from them anyway.

None of this takes anything away from you or your income. So why are you upset that a group of people that has been maligned and almost exterminated for centuries wants to live differently from you? It's not like they're taking jobs from you or keeping you up late at night with incessant drumming and chanting, right?

Racism is not about some group being different. Not being racist means that all have the same opportunities for education, jobs, etc. and are not discriminated against. Are you being discriminated against? Are you being forced to live in a society that is the exact opposite of what your tribal values are? Do you even know what Tribal Values are? It means that the tribe shares with anyone who is without, so that all are cared for.

Racism is about looking down on another group just because they are different from you. You may want to check your own attitude in regards to this, I think you might be surprised.

I have to disagree, Native Americans do not have the same representation in our government as do those of us that our ancestery comes from Europe. As the saying goes, no taxation without representation.

The European settlers that came here decimated the indigenous population and left them with nothing that they had to start with. They raped murdered and tortured these people, made deals with them only in turn to turn about face on those deals and steal more land from them.

To forcibly assimilate these people into our culture would be to destroy what remains of once great and proud nations that once populated the north American landscape.

Thats my point tho, its not giving their life back.
This happened long ago, everyone involved died so no one is left to repay or restore.
You cant pass on the sins of the father, just like you cant expect a society thats trying to be modern to allow religion , but it happens, doesn't meant it should.

What is it that we are depriving?
They embrace all other aspects of North American life, all other cultures here can practice their own beliefs on their own time and hold a job and pay taxes and contribute to society rather then sponge its resources.
Iv seen it become much worse because some people become lazy when you give them everything and make them not have to worry.
Iv seen a lot of native drug use, and abuse because some people don't have anything to do all day, they have money, but they don't have expenses, so they create expense such as drug use, and drinking and then those select few have to come up with more money so they go into drug growing, contraband and all that fun stuff.

Now I know the amount of native that do all that is a SMALL percentage but it still happens, it happens to everyone else, in all economic and ration backgrounds (Paris Hilton, and her bunch of girl friends, as well as some lazy people who are on welfare programs jsut to be on them)

The point is that they are still considered a separate nation. They are not Americans they are people that belong to the nation of their birth. To assimilate them into our culture would be the final decimation and assimilation of once prosperous nations.

Well I am in Canada, and First Nations have a lot of swing in the government, and alot of representation.
And I bet you 100% that some time in everyones family history they were persecuted for their beliefs and possibly race and sex.
So what get over it, move on and learn form the past, don't dwell on it and make that the goal of your entire culture to get repayment of an unquantifiable action.

And yes, they do take my money, my taxes go into their hands to pay for their extra benefits instead of fixing my roads, but at least its less money the politicians get to give themselves raises with.

And yes I am discriminated against, in post secondary schools there are grants for natives and minorities, while they still are left in consideration for the general grants. So they get twice as much money, and since they are in post secondary I think you can lose the argument that they will be poor and wont have a future.

And to say the natives are some of the poorest people, well so are welfare recipients, they are poor because the amount they get for free each month isn't enough to be considered rich, doesn't stop them from getting out of that situation, they still have the same opportunities as everyone.
Because they are apart of everyone, they and us, we are all the same.
Just people, nothing special.

And you say their culture is so different that it cant be done in civilized society, well maybe thats a sign that it needs to go, just as sacrifices and witch burnings had to go. And just as we dont cut of limbs of thieves.

drk3p, what part of "separate" do you not understand? What Native People get is just exactly what your government promised them (usually a lot less than was promised) to stop the wars between the whites and the Natives. And they were recognized as a separate nation then and now.

War damages have been a part of the treaty process for a very long time.

Yes, the whites could have finished the job of killing every last Native, but they figured it would cost too many lives to accomplish that task, and that making a treaty was cheaper.

So their plan to drown Natives in a sea of whites and make us disappear didn't work out, and now we're asking them to live up to their treaties. You are just want to finish the job your ancestors couldn't and erase us from being a separate people.

Too bad. We'll still be here when your nations have passed from the memory of man.

DRK3P, there are still many First People who are being abusively treated. They don't have the same opportunities as most white people do. Their religion is why they live out from society - they need to be living in tune with nature, not in a city. Many, many Native Americans died in prison, mostly because they were heartbroken at having their freedom taken away and not being able to be in Nature. It is a completely different mindset. Why shouldn't they be allowed to continue their traditions, many of which are over 10,000 years old.

So they live on a reservation - how does this negatively impact you?

You cannot have a separate nation within a nation. You can make a culture apart of yourself with out killing every person.
France ruled England, England ruled France, in the past when a nation was conquered, they left the majority alive and made them apart of their culture, and the conquered people melted into the whole and brought with them their own heritage and ways and those because part of the heritage of everyone in the conquering side.

The map above shows the united states, the white areas are the land that is currently owned by native American tribes. This land is considered separate from the united states. This is not a part of the united states. These are not US citizens.

drk3p, as bad as the reservation system was/is, it was the setting apart of these people from the rest of society on their own land.

If we completely overrun Iraq, and in the interest of stopping the war, agree to let the Iraq people live however they want on a few tiny parcels, they will still be Iraqis. We may then annex/claim that part of the Middle East to be a part of America, but those we have made peace with, and given treaty/ownership to their national identity, will still exist as a separate people.

Now in the above scenario, those people of Iraqi descent, may have access to the rest of the area that was once their nation, may be allowed to participate in it, hold jobs and live in it, if that is agreed to. But it DOES NOT rescind their status as a separate people.

This separation that was agreed to by the whites years past was to insure an easier takeover of North America, and not intended to benefit the Natives at all. Unfortunately for these whites, the Natives have made these treaties work to help them remain a people. And you want to now say, "Well, it was a bad deal we made back then, so let's just do away with it."

Sorry, your ancestors made a deal, so stick to it and stop whining because it didn't work out to the total benefit of the white race.

Deals are meant to be changed, its apart of history, you cant live in the past.
You cant have everything the same, thats why you rent goes up, and inflation, because you cant live int he past where hamburgers costs 30 cents, the world changes and you have to change with it, otherwise it causes all this # that is happening.

So they had a deal that suited someones needs int he past, well now those needs have changed, you cant make a deal for all times. And its stupid to try and enforce long dead words.

If someone would want to disband form the country they are apart of, then they should come up whit a plan that would make them self reliant, its childish to say I want my own house but I want you to feed me and pay my bills.

Speaking of which, you girl moves in with you, she takes over everything, but you are now apart of the relationship, so you deal with it and become apart of the relationship, you don't demand to keep your old ways of sleeping around with any thing that walks, and you will cause all sorts of fights if you keep brining up the wrongs of the past.

drk3p, By your logic(?) I could call up the loan company and tell them that since this POS vehicle isn't working out for me, they need to just forget about the rest of the payments.

While the idea of doing that has a certain amusement value, I'm sure that if you were the party that loaned me the money, you wouldn't find it to amusing.

I'll tell you what, why don't you see how that idea flies down at your local bank and get back to me on that.

Originally posted by drk3p
Well I am in Canada, and First Nations have a lot of swing in the government, and alot of representation.
And I bet you 100% that some time in everyones family history they were persecuted for their beliefs and possibly race and sex.
So what get over it, move on and learn form the past, don't dwell on it and make that the goal of your entire culture to get repayment of an unquantifiable action.

How? Do you actively follow politics within Canada. Do you know nothing about the Kelowna Accord that was signed on to by the first nations, the Canadian government under the leadership of Paul Martin, and Gordon Campbell of BC, one of the best things done... that apparently has been swept under by the Conservative Party and our Prime Minister Harper. Do you know nothing about the Nisga treaty signed by Gordon Campbell and the Nisga nation of British Columbia, that gave them rights to the Nisga Nation under self government.

Originally posted by drk3p
And yes, they do take my money, my taxes go into their hands to pay for their extra benefits instead of fixing my roads, but at least its less money the politicians get to give themselves raises with.

Oh please stop with the false statements. Taxes also go to the provinces, the municipalities deal with the roads in Canada. Under the British North America Act signed in 1867 the federal government and the provinces each have separate powers to deal with this, while both have taxation rights. The ability to repair the roads in Canada comes from section 92 (maybe you want to check it out sometime) and is defined as a Provincial and Municipal power. Here we can see that Canadians pay taxes for schools, for road improvements (I can walk outside my house right now and stare down the Memorial Parkway in Comox, British Columbia and see the sign that says our taxpayers money has gone to build this). Check your taxes sometime to see what your paying for... or at least take a course in political science.

Originally posted by drk3p
And yes I am discriminated against, in post secondary schools there are grants for natives and minorities, while they still are left in consideration for the general grants. So they get twice as much money, and since they are in post secondary I think you can lose the argument that they will be poor and wont have a future.

Wow this is a big statement. Maybe next you'll state that you're being discriminated against because of your sex? Women have many more scholarships than men do. So what? If it gives everyone the equal right to go school more power for it. I'm a white male that goes to University in British Columbia, and I don't care about not getting scholarships... That being said there are so many bursaries kicking around right now.... for excellence in grades, for volunteer work, for helping out my schools community... maybe you want to check into those before you complain about the ones you don't get.

So to recap:

You state that deals are meant to be changed because they're a part of history... what about the deals that were signed four years ago?

You state that you cannot have a separate nation within a nation. Guess what? You're living in Canada... have you checked Quebec recently? Have you looked at the parliamentary rulings in February when Primer Minister Harper gave Quebec nation status?

You state that First Nations have a lot of swing within our governments? Right... that's why deals get reneged on our side, and why they don't have a seat in the federal or provincial spectrum when they rightfully should, and why they continue to state they want their own self government.

When your looking up political science... look up history too, the sexual abuse they suffered, the land they gave up, and the rights that were taken away from them... Potlatch ring a bell....

Never mind, I guess ignorance is bliss and I shouldn't post when I'm mad!

Actually I do say there is discrimination against males.
The pendulum has swung and all the methods we use to try and make this an equal world, actually just make it less equal.

Thats why I shot my mini doc White Male Syndrome where it explored the inequalities of equality.

I agree women get more benefits in some ways that harm males.

Thats not to say that males get benefits in other areas that women don't.
But thats my whole point
EVERYONE should be entitled to everything everyone else is.

I'm not pro harper. My stand is there should be no treaties, there should just be acceptance and equality, but that will never happen

Originally posted by drk3p
EVERYONE should be entitled to everything everyone else is.

So in that case, you must be just as much against Quebec being named a distinct society. I truly believe we should honour our Native citizens just like we honour our culture. You speak of conquering and them submitting to their conquerers ways, when other coutries were defeated in WWII I don't recall any of them forced to drop their culture for another.

I don't know if it was this thread, or the other native thread, but I did say that I'm against the thought of French Canadian as a separate heritage.

And in WWII are you talking about the end, or the cause?
I didn't really see WWII as a conquering war, do you think Japan attacked America because they wanted to take over?
But the pilgrims/settlers/whathaveyou did want the land, and conquered it, or bought it, whatever your opinion is on it, the fact of the matter is they took the land, it was theirs to "own".

If you don't believe in owning land, then what exactly are countries? You can't say, I'm sick of Canada, I'll make myself apart of Russia.

drkp33 said -

Do you think its about time everyone was treated as equals?
Cant we all just get in the same boat?....
Why can't society declare Natives officially conquered and apart of whatever country they are living in?
Why do they need their own land, reserves, and casino's?

Let's not stop until we're all abject slaves together...

Misery loves company.

If that's not the most ridiculous thing, it's all going to be destroyed. We will return to the forest, so we can be divine creatures again.