The 10 commandments

Originally posted by followerofchrist
Madness by now you should know what I am going to say about homosexuality it is a choice read this that comes from a paper in hong kong. The person writing gives some good examples. If you don't like that one how about this one homosexuality a choice

well, the first link i'll just ignore because it isn't the scientific
and the second one i'll dispute, it's inherently biased. their own message is that they wish to see homosexuality demonized at every level

and yet you still can't explain gay animals, even the gay penguins

How am I rationalizing the Laws? The Law was the Law. They were perfect, they set Israel apart from every other nation in the world at the time. There is punishment for disobeying the Laws God have given the people to build there nation.

so you're saying that all of the laws in the bible were PERFECT?
holy hell, you're a nutter if you think that.

Did you know a marrage is a covenant? when you understand Covenant you understand the reason God was so strict.

a covenant doesn't require killing people for the way that they're born... especially is said being has control over how people are made. if your deity didn't want gay people it wouldn't have made them... yet it calls for their death

Hopfully I will answer not just that question but your last one with this. Sodomy was not exactly a good thing in the eyes of God, because it was a bad choice that leads away from Him.

um... again, homosexuality is not a choice
do you CHOOSE to be attracted to the opposite sex?
anyway..
how would it lead away from your deity
and why do you keep insisting that your deity is a male?

Why do you think Sodom and Ghemorah was destroyed ( granted not just because of homosexuality ) because it had nothing to do with God.

what happened to free will?
for the record: i completely dispute this as a historical event

Why do you think those people died in Noahs time? Because they had nothing to do with God.

again, what happened to free will?
and again, i completely dispute this as a historical event

Why do you think Adam and Eve were punished? Because they turned away from God.

because god was lying and they caught him in that lie? because god wanted to keep them ignorant?
god said that they'd die within a day of eating the fruit, adam died hundreds of years later.

or how about this one: because the story wouldn't have made sense if they didn't

Why do you think there are a lot of people claiming it to be the " End Times?"

because they're nutters? because we ALWAYS have had people claiming that it is the end times... even the character jesus implies that the end times are near

A reason is because we are turning away from God. A willing choice. Every time God punishes a large amount of people it is because they have made the consious decision to go against the Covenant God made with them.

really?
what a prick

Because of Adam disobeying God he could have lived forever be immortal. God didn't lie. He said do not eat from the Tree of Knowlege. Their connection with God died thats why they were banished from the Garden Of Eden. They had it made but they choose to disobey God. And because of that action it doomed the rest of us on learning things we had no business learning thus explaining the Great Flood. Cross breeding animals, giants, and such. Know of the Centaur and Griffin those animals may have been from the old stories. How do we even know about those creatures?

Madness

god said that they'd die within a day of eating the fruit

Actually he said they would surely die when they eat the fruit.

You keep referring to the animals, we did not come from animals.

I do agree with what Leyla says though.

And madness you chose to not believe in God did you not? just like all the examples I gave you that was free will. They chose. Not God. He punished.
Again you would have to understand the Covenant.

God did not Create Homosexuals...rather they chose to give in to that urge. Let me give you an example of how it could lead you away from God.. you start out your day saying, well I have all my life never smoked and I never plan on it because my health is really good. You hang out with some buddies that decide to smoke ask you if you want one ( hears a choice ) if you chose to have one you could very easily be sucked into a habit that is hazardous to your health and once your smoking your health will start to deteriorate ( lung cancer, stains your teeth ) the more and more you chose to have one the less and less you would be thinking about your health. If you chose not to though you continue to have your health (given that you are eating healthy and all that ). I know homosexuality is not smoking but, the more and more you give into that urge the more you could possibly be giving into drugs, and other things and less and less are you taking time out of your day(s) for God untill God is on a shelf somewhere in the back of your head.

God Bless

Originally posted by followerofchrist
You keep referring to the animals, we did not come from animals.

well, there is an arkload of evidence that proves that we come from animals. the science is there, it's unrefuted, it's as close to scientific fact as you can get in this day and age.

And madness you chose to not believe in God did you not? just like all the examples I gave you that was free will. They chose. Not God. He punished.
Again you would have to understand the Covenant.

choose me or die isn't a choice
and again, what type of covenant involves killing a woman for not screaming loud enough when she was raped?
or selling your daughter into sex slavery?

God did not Create Homosexuals...rather they chose to give in to that urge.

they were born with that urge, they're born attracted to their own gender. it's not something they can help

I know homosexuality is not smoking but, the more and more you give into that urge the more you could possibly be giving into drugs, and other things and less and less are you taking time out of your day(s) for God untill God is on a shelf somewhere in the back of your head.

um... what does homosexual love have to do with drugs? you're equating two people loving each other to a habit. you're equating something that's been substantiated as a condition one does not choose to a drug habit.

you're pretty much spewing the same type of bigotry that got Aaron Hall beaten to death....

Originally posted by followerofchrist


I know homosexuality is not smoking but, the more and more you give into that urge the more you could possibly be giving into drugs, and other things and less and less are you taking time out of your day(s) for God untill God is on a shelf somewhere in the back of your head.

this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Do you actually know any homosexuals, FoC? Have you ever spent any time with them, more than just a passing acquaintance?

My guess is no. Because if you had, you would know that they can no more choose who they are attracted to than you can.

You've just been indoctrinated by the hate of some modern preacher.

If there was such a thing as god, it would care less who you love, so long as you love. God is love, remember?

All the weak comparisons of homosexuality to drug addiction notwithstanding.

Nonsense is nonsense.

Let me rehash an old thread from one of my friends on here...the Genesis Account

Now he may have lacked in the scientific area but I am coming in to give just that with these

The first...not coming from animals

The second. This one is interesting...again not coming from animals

If you happen to not like that one how about this Third one which is interesting..Lived side by side not in same family tree
you know these three links prove something..humans lived side by side with their supposed ancestors. In my opinion that is throwing out evolution. But if really want answers...

Here is a link that if I am not mistaken you can ask questions anyways anything you want to know is here...anything you want to know

I'll tell you Madness, The Laws were perfect for man at the time. Which is something I have already said. Being that, The people of Israel did not know the how to's of being a nation.

Well I am sure I am not the only one that feels like this is getting off-topic but, it is interesting none the less.

MM, I do have some homosexual friends and the truth is the choice came from acting on an urge. Just like I acted on a urge to be straight. I know God is love and that he loves all of us unconditionally, He does not however love the inmoral, or, sins we commit. We are given free will from birth, when it comes up there are two urges to act on straight, or homosexual. This is a choice. What urge we act upon is a choice we made. God still loves us ( the person ) but not the choice.

This is not intended to harm or offend anyone but why in the Bible, does it clearly state, in the Old and New Testaments, that a man will leave his parents and marry a wife thus two becoming one?

God Bless

Let's not go into the same tired argument over scripture.

Your book contradicts itself. You pick and choose which laws in that book you're going to follow. Therefore the book is not perfect, and so why should the old garbage about homosexuality be accepted when the laws to stone your wife for a multitude of "sins" are not?

Homosexuality is not a choice. Why don't you talk to your homosexual friends about how they feel about that. Or do you judge them from your perspective so you can't really ask them questions like this?

Homosexuality is not a choice. Why don't you talk to your homosexual friends about how they feel about that. Or do you judge them from your perspective so you can't really ask them questions like this?

I answered this with this

MM, I do have some homosexual friends and the truth is the choice came from acting on an urge. Just like I acted on a urge to be straight. I know God is love and that he loves all of us unconditionally, He does not however love the inmoral, or, sins we commit. We are given free will from birth, when it comes up there are two urges to act on straight, or homosexual. This is a choice. What urge we act upon is a choice we made. God still loves us ( the person ) but not the choice.

And how is this

I'll tell you Madness, The Laws were perfect for man at the time. Which is something I have already said. Being that, The people of Israel did not know the how to's of being a nation.

as you put it

Your book contradicts itself. You pick and choose which laws in that book you're going to follow.

Or where you talking about this

This is not intended to harm or offend anyone but why in the Bible, does it clearly state, in the Old and New Testaments, that a man will leave his parents and marry a wife thus two becoming one?

If you where how is that picking and chooseing? I put that in there to ask a Question.

why should the old garbage about homosexuality be accepted when the laws to stone your wife for a multitude of "sins" are not?

Again The Laws were perfect for the time they were in. We have sinced " Matured " and such harsh punishments now seem inhumane so we come up with alternatives. They were set for a people that was a lot simpler that now. And more adolesent then now.

On another topic, did you look at the links?

God Bless

followerofchrist, we've "matured" through secular and notheistic laws. and again, your view on homosexuals is blindingly ignorant

What I meant by " Matured " was that we have grown up, So now the New Covenant that is talked about in the New Testament is the perfect one for us.

Knowing a homosexual that made a choice to be that way as well as others that I have run accross is that " Ignorant? " I mean granted I am making an assumption...I guess that the whole is like the little I have come accross, but I have yet to meet otherwise...so does that make me Ignorant or, to use your words Madness, " Blindingly Ignorant? "

On another note though did you like the links?

God Bless

well... i did like the links... but they only prove MY point. all humans come from a single woman... but not a single MAN....
missed that part, didn't you?
there may have been a woman who we could call "eve" as a metaphor... but she had children by multiple men. and... that doesn't disprove evolution. you have a few links... i have entire museums, mountains of fossils, and billions of pages that prove evolution.

now, you said that the homosexuals "had an urge" that they acted upon. now... that still doesn't prove that they had a choice. it's not a choice to have that urge. as a heterosexual i have never felt any attraction to another man beyond a platonic bond. people don't choose the urges that they're born with.

Well being that every single Homosexual or lesbian I know was a heterosexual before prove to me that they made a choice. That is what I am going off of real life experiances not statistics, not books, not anything else. I have yet to find a homosexual that was that way from birth.

Actually all I need to have is a book to disprove evolution. I know you don't like it. Look science changes, The bible hasn't what does that say?

God Bless

Originally posted by followerofchrist
Well being that every single Homosexual or lesbian I know was a heterosexual before prove to me that they made a choice.

or it proves that they were pressured into heterosexuality by the environment that they were raised in..
so you're right, they CHOSE to act heterosexual, no matter how hard it was for them to do it.

That is what I am going off of real life experiances not statistics, not books, not anything else. I have yet to find a homosexual that was that way from birth.

you mean you've yet to see a homosexual who acted on what they felt instead of what society told them to do from birth...

Actually all I need to have is a book to disprove evolution. I know you don't like it. Look science changes, The bible hasn't what does that say?

that the bible is in need of some serious editing.
science changes because it admits to ignorance, religion doesn't change because it EMBRACES ignorance like a lover long thought dead.

Or maybe the Bible never changes because it is truth. Truth has always been the same. I have yet to see truth change. The Bible has in it many scientific facts:

The world is free floating there is nothing holding it up,
The world is not flat,
That there are mouintains under the ocean larger than Mt. Everest,
That the earth rotates on a axis,
That a boy eight days old is the perfect time to circumcise him,
That the water on this earth is just enough for us if there was just a little more the water would absorb all the carbon dioxide and nitrogen and no creature could live any longer,
That the universe is expanding, or stretching out.

How do you explain the Dead sea Scrolls? containing the ( Torah ) or Old Testement comparing it to now-a-days Old Testement and it is found with very few grammatical errors? The Jews were very meticulus in their writing did you know that Madness? They would ( and still do to this day ) count every letter in the copy they made to the copy they copied from, they would find the word or letter in the center and if it matched they would make sure the first and last letters or words were the same. If not they would bury it or, burn it and start over frome scratch. The pen markings were the same the letter sizes were the same, If there was something false in the documents why would they go to so much time as to keep them so neat and orderly and accurate? And all of this has been recorded like this from as far back as 3500 years ago.

God Bless

Originally posted by followerofchrist
The Bible has in it many scientific facts:

...

The world is free floating there is nothing holding it up

Psalm 104:5
"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved."
-its not free floating its trapped in a orbital path around the sun.

The world is not flat

Revelation 7:1
"And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."

That there are mouintains under the ocean larger than Mt. Everest

..did bible ever mention mount everest?

That the earth rotates on a axis

Psalm 104:5
"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved."

That a boy eight days old is the perfect time to circumcise him

im not an expert on the matter, but i think science would tell you that there is a evolutionary reason for the foreskin and there isn't any perfect time to circumcise it.

That the water on this earth is just enough for us if there was just a little more the water would absorb all the carbon dioxide and nitrogen and no creature could live any longer

organisms would of developed different and had different adaptations if the atmospheric composition was different to what it is today.

That the universe is expanding, or stretching out.

STRETCHING OUT THE HEAVENS isn't stretching out the universe.
i was under the impression that the bible states they are two different things?



[edit on 12/17/2004 by cheeser]

Thank you, Madness will not delve into the sciptures. Though, Psalms does say that, He is talking about just what you said, an orbital path, that it revolves around the sun.

Umm... the book of Isaiah 40:22 (written 2800 years ago)
" it is He that sits upon the circle of the earth. "

You see the earth is round, Revelation is talking about the four cardinal directions ie.., north, south, east, and west.

Job 26:7 ( written 3500 years ago )
" He stretches out the north over the empty place, and hangs the earth upon NOTHING. "

There is not Atlas holding the earth up right? no animal holding it up right? though it cannot be moved, it is hung on nothing.

Jonah 2:6 ( written 2800 years ago )
" I went to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever: yet have you brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. "

No. The Bible does not mention Mt. Everest but, The peaks of these under water mountains reach higher than Everest, if put side by side.

Job 38:12, 14
God himself says: " Have you commanded the morning since your days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; that it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? It [ the earth ] is turned as a clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment. "

Modern science has come to understand that the earth's rotation on itd axis is responcible for the sun's rising and setting. The picture here is of a vessel of clay being TURNED or rotated upon the potter's wheel-an accurate analogy of the earth's rotation.

And the cicumcision on the eighth day is the only day in the entire life of the newborn that the blood clotting element prothrombin is above 100%

You are right it is not the only day but, it is for that element in the body to make it less harmful.

Genesis 1:1,3 ( written 3450 years ago )
" In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth...Ans the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. "

Science expresses the universe in five terms: Time, Space, Matter, Power and Motion. " In the beginning ( time ) God created ( power ) the Heaven ( space ) and the earth ( matter )...And the Spirit of God moved ( motion ) upon the face of the waters. "

Isaiah 40:12 " It is He that...stretches out the heavens as a curtain, and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in. "

God Bless

Wow, somebody that's been exposed to this stuff all their lives and caught up in the web of the delusion sure can make what they want of verses to make them fit modern science. I find it extremely ironic that theists decry science and say it doesn't apply up until the point that they want to use it to prove their own dogma. THEN science is ok and what it says is ok. Up until then it's just a "belief system" that is "wrong" because it differs from the Bible.

Any theist in this thread, I have a question for you:

Which god is the correct god? I'm assuming you're going to say yours, no other god exists.

So, you don't believe in Allah? Shiva? Quetzalcoatl? Right?

Why not?

Because those gods are pretend, imaginary, made up, right? What do you base that on? How do you know YOUR god is the true god and all other gods are not? Because you "say so"? Has it anything to do with the fact that the stories behind the other gods are clearly impossible, and unacceptable, because they contain elements of impossibility in the form of magic and magical events?

Guess what? Your god is just as imaginary as their gods. The more I read on this forum -- not from all the religious folk, some of them here are quite reasonable and it is interesting to carry on a debate with them -- from certain of the most hide-bound fundamentalists who I will not name so as not to start a personal war, the more this stuff sounds like insane ravings.

If some guy came up to you on the street and said that he'd talked to a burning bush that told him it was god and god told him to go out and ask everyone for all their money. would you give him all your money? Or would you think he was a lunatic? Burning bushes don't really speak, do they?

What if you heard a voice in your head that told you it was god and it wanted you to kill your whole family as a sacrifice for its glorification, and it convinced you that it was the god of your bible, would you kill your family?

This stuff is so unbelievable you wouldn't believe it if it happened to you. You'd think you were crazy. You'd think the guy asking for your money was crazy. Why? Deep down inside I think fundies KNOW their god is imaginary but they cannot let go of the need for an invisible friend.

I'm not mocking here, not at all. I am attempting to get across how puzzled I am that anyone can seriously believe all this stuff in this day and age, surrounded by and making use of modern technology, and yet following the rules for living set down by primitive sheep-herding desert people thousands of years ago.

My mind. It boggles.

" it is He that sits upon the circle of the earth. "

last time i checked a circle is FLAT, not spherical

hence supporting the flat earth theory NOT the spherical earth theory.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction

this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Do you actually know any homosexuals, FoC? Have you ever spent any time with them, more than just a passing acquaintance?

My guess is no. Because if you had, you would know that they can no more choose who they are attracted to than you can.

You've just been indoctrinated by the hate of some modern preacher.

Seems like FollowerofChrist is getting pushed around in this thread by three big bullies. C'mon guys, this is ATS. Don't make stupid personal attacks or assumptions about other members, like the fact that they have a hateful preacher.

Although I don't agree with FollowerofChrist on many stances, it would be better to teach him instead of yell at him. Instead of saying that there's an arkload of evidence for Evoultion, and then calling him an idiot, why not PRESENT the evidence for him so that he can learn. I came to ATS as a creationist but was lead to Evolution by fellow ATSers and my own unbiased research. I know that you guys can do the same for FollowerofChrist.

So please, people. Stop the taunts and start the teaching.

I stand by what I said. It's ridiculous.

And we've moved on past that point. Care to chastize me for what I said right above your post instead? Or do you not have an answer to my very valid questions?

Seems like FollowerofChrist is getting pushed around in this thread by three big bullies. C'mon guys, this is ATS. Don't make stupid personal attacks or assumptions about other members, like the fact that they have a hateful preacher.

What did you just say about stupid personal attacks? Pot, meet kettle again perhaps? Or is this a case of, your opinion is an opinion, but my opinion is that of a bully? I believe at some point you called me a hypocrite, I think you should consider the mote in your own eye before examining the beam in mine.

Practice what you preach. That's all I ask of you AND all Christians who say they love then preach hate in the form of "the bible says homosexuals are an abomination."

So please, people. Stop the taunts and start the teaching.

a) I'm human, I'm sick -- bad cold, and I'm also sick of trying to talk to people who have their metaphorical fingers in their ears going "lalalala."

b) I've tried teaching calmly and some people are so caught up in the delusion they aren't hearing, so I'm trying a different tack.

Or are you the only one allowed to lose their temper and go off on someone?

[edit on 27-6-2007 by MajorMalfunction]