Is Catholicism any different from Scientology?

In response to the original question: "Is Catholocism any different from Scientology?" Well, yes they're different; otherwise they'd be the same religion. However, I doubt someone from another civilization would see much of a difference between the two, at least at first glance.

Pretty much any hierarchical faith-based religion could be considrered a cult.

Imagine if Scientology had been around for 2000 years and Catholocism was only 50 years old. There'd be a difference in overall perception for sure.

This thread has truly amazed me....... and no, not in a good way.

Is Catholicism any different from Scientology?

This only deserves a simple one word answer "no" and to think other wise would be so incredibly ignorant that I would question if you even know what either one is? ... They are actually just about as far apart as religions get...

I realise that at first glance, this may seem a rather bizarre statement, but bear with me whilst I lay out my idea.

Uninformed statement more likely, but of course it is your opinion based on either your observations or lack thereof.

The Catholic church is modelled on the old roman empire, with a single patriarch at the top from whom all authority flows.

The correct terminology is this: The Roman Catholic Church is a Monarchy. There is nothing wrong with a Monarchy, as the Mother Church has faired quite well over the centuries, and even had all those little protestant groups try and claim differences when there is none for the sake of power, but never had the organization abilities of the Mother Church to out do her.

It has a hierarchical structure (similar to the roman army) so that everybody will obey without question, which is not surprising given the origins of the new testament and its authors.

*sigh* .. Monarchy, Pope is the King in a sense, it is a Monarchy, it IS NOT based on the Roman Army, and if you think it is, you know nothing of Rome.

The "Authors" are not in question, but those who chose the books.... if the Mother Church is a fallacy then so are all of the Protestant spawns.

Indoctrination into the church starts at birth, with baptism (which makes you an official member of the church according to canon law) then continues through parents, peers and ritual throughout early childhood.

Sorry. What?

You can be baptised at any age, however most parents choose to do so at birth as they want their child raised as a Christian. Is that a problem to you? The rest of the statement does not even make sense in the slightest. Is Baptism a ritual? Yes. Rituals are everywhere friend, hell I was Order of the Arrow and that was one hell of a ritual.

Then you have first communion, confirmation, confession etc etc. which further indoctrinate, until, at last, you are a fully fledged member, with all that entails

Your a "full member" when your baptized.. the sacraments are simply a path .. I'm not sure how to describe it to a none-Catholic.. its like steps, to children, getting your first communion is a huge thing, its apart of growing up. You can however get all the sacraments in a short amount of time.. even on your death bed.. its structured this way to give children the sense of steps to achieve if you will. When your CONFIRMED your not a "full member now" and get the secret RCC book of rituals or what ever it is you think happens, you are actually just swearing allegiance to the Church.

as well as catholic schools usually run by nuns or christian brothers

That was funny.

a novel approach to education, a bit like the carrot and the stick but without the carrot at least in Ireland and sometimes the UK.

Maybe in the UK and Ireland, but I doubt it, however I can tell you this, my Catholic education was BY FAR superior to any education I could have and did get in public schools.. and you can bet that while I have my own differences with the Church, my children will be going to Catholic schools. They put public education to shame.

I am no longer a catholic, as I believe that religion or spirituality should not be based on guilt (see confession and the concept of original sin)

Personally I doubt you ever where a Catholic, but assuming you where you are always Catholic, you can stop attending as I have, and you can disagree with everything the Church says and does, but your still Catholic.

This is a quite simplistic view, but one well based in fact as well as opinion.

I see no facts. Just opinions..

I would not trust Wiki with everything, especially with something as sensitive as the Mother Church, as it has quite a few enemies.

Since the BBC programme about scientology I have done a bit of research and can't really see that much difference.

.................riiight.

Both organisations indoctrinate and brainwash their members for further enrichment and to "spread the word".

The Church does not enforce people to spread the word, but the people themselves do.. it is their religion, it is their way of life, and it is their personal right to choose to "spread the word" or not....

Aside from that, this is the SAME in EVERY SINGLE RELIGION EVERY FORMED PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE. To say that two religions are the same because they both encourage "spreading the word" is complete and utter ignorance.

Both vigorously defend their beliefs, usually to the detriment of any who oppose them.

Dear God tell me your bringing BETTER arguments then this?

Both hold what can be viewed as bizarre beliefs - the reason catholicism is acceptable is that it has been around longer and has a massive following.

Bizarre how? By who? By Protostents who think they are different then the RCC? By other outsiders? I see Scientology, because its a quack religion made by a science fiction writer. If you think that RCC is only acceptable because of its age, then my friend, I honest think you need to take a few classes in both history and religion.

Both have secrecy and rituals known only to those who have reached a certain level if hierarchical attainment.

I don't know about the Church of Scientology but the Catholic Church does NOT have secret rituals... especially based on hierarchy ........ you said you where Catholic?

Thoughts anyone?

OK so let me get this straight, you think the Mother Church and Scientology are exactly alike because of the following..

Both have members who "Spread the Word"
Both defend their beliefs..
Both are "bizarre" in your opinion...
Both have "secret" rituals, which it is a fact that the RCC does not..................................................................

Wow.

Enough said, imo, and I laugh at anyone who off the bat agreed with this man.

Originally posted by Kruel
In response to the original question: "Is Catholocism any different from Scientology?" Well, yes they're different; otherwise they'd be the same religion. However, I doubt someone from another civilization would see much of a difference between the two, at least at first glance.

Pretty much any hierarchical faith-based religion could be considrered a cult.

Imagine if Scientology had been around for 2000 years and Catholocism was only 50 years old. There'd be a difference in overall perception for sure.

At first glance? My God your probably serious and thats the truly sad part.. You would have to be so utterly uninformed, and down right stupid to be honest, not to see the differences of Christianity and Scientology..... I am truly at a loss of words.

Pretty much any hierarchical faith-based religion could be considrered a cult.

Will ignorance prevail on this board? You sir, know nothing of religions, or cults, as almost every religion as almost every human social organization is a hierarchy of power.

And if Scientology was old and Christianity new, of course it would be the other way around, as one would be ingrained in society and one would not.. that again is basic human social structure....

This only deserves a simple one word answer "no" and to think other wise would be so incredibly ignorant that I would question if you even know what either one is? ... They are actually just about as far apart as religions get...

I wasn't talking about them being the same, rather similar methods of control though.

The correct terminology is this: The Roman Catholic Church is a Monarchy. There is nothing wrong with a Monarchy, as the Mother Church has faired quite well over the centuries, and even had all those little protestant groups try and claim differences when there is none for the sake of power, but never had the organization abilities of the Mother Church to out do her.

How can it be a monarchy without a king? oh right, you're offering as "proof" the existence of a mythical being who has no basis in fact - and you tell others about opinion?

*sigh* .. Monarchy, Pope is the King in a sense, it is a Monarchy, it IS NOT based on the Roman Army, and if you think it is, you know nothing of Rome.

The "Authors" are not in question, but those who chose the books.... if the Mother Church is a fallacy then so are all of the Protestant spawns.

and yet the church teaches that god is the monarch and the pope his vicar on earth.

That was funny.

Might be funny, but it's true - many catholic schools in the UK and Ireland are run by nuns (for girls) and christian brothers (for boys)
I'm not refuting the educational standards - I am questioning their methods which are tantamount to serious assault at times - discipline can be taken too far - I myself was beaten as a small child.

Personally I doubt you ever where a Catholic, but assuming you where you are always Catholic, you can stop attending as I have, and you can disagree with everything the Church says and does, but your still Catholic.

I am from an Irish family who are about as catholic as you can get.
But just because the church says I still belong, it doesn't mean in my eyes that I do - therefore I refer to myself as a former catholic.

I see no facts. Just opinions..

I would not trust Wiki with everything, especially with something as sensitive as the Mother Church, as it has quite a few enemies.

or do you just choose to ignore facts because you have been brainwashed by the church - also, why do you suppose that the church has so many enemies?
couldn't possibly be because of their methods could it?
tell me what other church has it's own very organized intelligence service
?
I see similarities here - give scientology enough time and they will evolve the same apparatus of control.

The Church does not enforce people to spread the word, but the people themselves do.. it is their religion, it is their way of life, and it is their personal right to choose to "spread the word" or not....

the bible tells people to spread the word, both organisations encourage members to do this for their own enrichment.

Bizarre how? By who? By Protostents who think they are different then the RCC? By other outsiders? I see Scientology, because its a quack religion made by a science fiction writer. If you think that RCC is only acceptable because of its age, then my friend, I honest think you need to take a few classes in both history and religion.

By enlightened people who see both organisations for what they really are, and what their goals are.
As for history, ever hear of the inquisition?

I don't know about the Church of Scientology but the Catholic Church does NOT have secret rituals... especially based on hierarchy ........ you said you where Catholic?

So the election of a new pope is a democratic process open to all is it?

OK so let me get this straight, you think the Mother Church and Scientology are exactly alike because of the following..

No, I asked the question of difference in methodology of control, propaganda and enrichment.

BTW is anyone going to address the jungian dogma question?

Or the concept of guilt?

This isn't about agreeing with me, it's about having a look at the forces that control some peoples lives.




[edit on 13/6/2007 by budski]

I wasn't talking about them being the same, rather similar methods of control though.

No. You said same.

How can it be a monarchy without a king? oh right, you're offering as "proof" the existence of a mythical being who has no basis in fact - and you tell others about opinion?

The Church is a Monarch, the Pope has absolute power.

and yet the church teaches that god is the monarch and the pope his vicar on earth.

Right.... let me say this slower for you so you can understand...

The... Pope... Is.... The Supreme .... Ruler.... of.... the Vatican... and......... the Church......

Might be funny, but it's true - many catholic schools in the UK and Ireland are run by nuns (for girls) and christian brothers (for boys)
I'm not refuting the educational standards - I am questioning their methods which are tantamount to serious assault at times - discipline can be taken too far - I myself was beaten as a small child.

OMG You where beat by a nun! And now you despise the church aaaannndddd hate little old nuns. I am sure if you deserved to have your arse beat its because you really did deserve it.

But of course one bad experience MUST mean its bad for everyone right?

I am from an Irish family who are about as catholic as you can get.
But just because the church says I still belong, it doesn't mean in my eyes that I do - therefore I refer to myself as a former catholic.

Ok, former Catholic.. I am just saying your trying to compare Christianity with Scientology really does not shine a good light on your.. um.. knowledge of the Church.

or do you just choose to ignore facts because you have been brainwashed by the church - also, why do you suppose that the church has so many enemies?
couldn't possibly be because of their methods could it?
tell me what other church has it's own very organized intelligence service
?
I see similarities here - give scientology enough time and they will evolve the same apparatus of control.

Kid, religion is control. Get over it.

the bible tells people to spread the word, both organisations encourage members to do this for their own enrichment.

Oh no! .. Surly the world will end from this...........

By enlightened people who see both organisations for what they really are, and what their goals are.
As for history, ever hear of the inquisition?

You my friend, are NOT enlightened

So the election of a new pope is a democratic process open to all is it?

Pointless thing to say, as it did not have any thing to do with what I said.. however it is a democratic process because he is voted, thus democracy.. but hes a monarch, and only the Cardinals elect him.

You... do know that democracy is not the only form of government? ... Ohhhh thats right.

You've been brainwashed.

This isn't about agreeing with me, it's about having a look at the forces that control some peoples lives.

Right...........


What exactly is your point or target outcome here?

And here again we see similarities with scientology - an attempt to denigrate an opponent through ridicule and so called "lack of knowledge". Even patronising those who don't agree. We see the same tactics employed by the 2 members who insist that they are merely putting forth facts when they are actually trying to browbeat others into accepting that RCC is not to blame for any of it's sins. Was not christianity (of which catholocism is but one sect) supposed to be based on the teachings of jesus who professed love for his fellow man, tolerance etc etc.

You still haven't answered about jungian dogma.
You cannot answer the question of structure without contradicting yourself.
You bleat about the pope and the election process - arcane ritual, point proved.

The catholic church has been responsible for more deaths than any other religion in modern times - chopping up innocents at the behest of the church during the crusades, the inquisition, victims "cleansed" by fire.
www.reformation.org...
www.lepg.org...
www....[hate-site-nolink]/whitehistory/hwr43.htm
www.religioustolerance.org...
www.malleusmaleficarum.org...
Need I go on?

The protestant hating bile has been spewed forth - nice to see sectarianism is alive and well.

Seen the thread on secret church documents protecting abusers?

You can use any tactic you like, but the fact remains that there are similarities between catholocism and scientology in their methodology and their goals of enrichment.

The church is no longer about spirituality - if it ever was - it has the same goal as any other corporation.

I don't deny that some people find strength through the church, but that could equally be said of scientology.

[edit on 14/6/2007 by budski]

[edit on 14/6/2007 by budski]

Originally posted by budski
so called "lack of knowledge".

There is nothing 'so called' about it. You DO have a serious lack of knowledge about the Catholic Church. We have DESTROYED everything you have said .. and we destroyed it with facts.

Everything. All your allegations. All your statements. Factually destroyed.

trying to browbeat others into accepting that RCC is not to blame for any of it's sins.

yeah, right. I thought this was supposed to be about Catholicism being the same as Scientology. And now you are going on about the Catholic Church's 'sins'. Obviously your statement that this thread isn't about 'catholic bashing' is just plain wrong.

You still haven't answered about jungian dogma.

YOU haven't answered ANY of the questions or comments that were made in direct opposition to your false allegations. Answer those (THIRD REQUEST). You haven't acknowedged that all your opening statements against the Catholic Church have been proven false. You have nothing left to show that Catholicsim = Scientology.

The catholic church ...

.... that's more off-topic catholic bashing. So much for this thread allegedly not being about Catholic bashing, eh? @@:

The church is no longer about spirituality ...

.... that's more off-topic catholic bashing. So much for this thread allegedly not being about Catholic bashing, eh?

I say "so called" because you have not disproved anything I've said - you've tried the usual tactic of disinformation and deflection, combined with cherry-picking and spurious dogma.
All you have spouted is RCC propaganda.

Neither of you have answered questions raised, trying instead to denigrate and discredit in typical RCC style.

You guys are the ones who made this a debate about RCC - if you care to read back you'll see I mentioned on more than one occasion that this wasn't an attack on RCC.

If you can't answer the reasonable questions (ignored every time) posted, then move on to something else.

And now that you find yourself challenged, you try the old tag team tactic.

You are proving everything I've said by being unable to debate instead you use the same old tactics previously mentioned.

If you want to get this back on track and have a serious discussion, then I'm willing to listen to your points.
I am not willing to listen to RCC propaganda, deflection and disinfo tactics.

You're fully aware of the point of this debate, but instead have decided to make a defense of a corrupt (both morally and spiritually) organisation.

Originally posted by budski
you have not disproved anything I've said

Go back and read my first post on page one. EVERYTING you claimed was disproven. You have still failed to answer those questions I asked - FOURTH REQUEST.

I mentioned on more than one occasion that this wasn't an attack on RCC.

You keep saying that ... and yet you also keep saying things like this -

... have decided to make a defense of a corrupt (both morally and spiritually) organisation.

Which is in direct contradition of what you claim.

Bottom line - EVERYTHING the OP has claimed against the Catholic Church has been proven false back on the first page. The OP refuses to answer the questions asked back on the first page. The OP claims this isn't a catholic-bashing thread - but keeps bashing the Catholic faith anyways. The OP only wants to hear remarks that agree with him.

There is no discussion here. Just OP agenda. I'm done. Bu-bye. :shk:

Both organisations indoctrinate and brainwash their members for further enrichment and to "spread the word".

Proven - by the very nature of your argument you have proved my point.
where is the "fact" that contradicts this?

Both vigorously defend their beliefs, usually to the detriment of any who oppose them.

see above

Both hold what can be viewed as bizarre beliefs - the reason catholicism is acceptable is that it has been around longer and has a massive following.

proven - both beliefs can be viewed as bizarre by anybody not indoctrinated.

Both have secrecy and rituals known only to those who have reached a certain level if hierarchical attainment.

Proven - papal elections

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by budski
you have not disproved anything I've said

Go back and read my first post on page one. EVERYTING you claimed was disproven. You have still failed to answer those questions I asked - FOURTH REQUEST.

I mentioned on more than one occasion that this wasn't an attack on RCC.

You keep saying that ... and yet you also keep saying things like this -

... have decided to make a defense of a corrupt (both morally and spiritually) organisation.

Which is in direct contradition of what you claim.

Bottom line - EVERYTHING the OP has claimed against the Catholic Church has been proven false back on the first page. The OP refuses to answer the questions asked back on the first page. The OP claims this isn't a catholic-bashing thread - but keeps bashing the Catholic faith anyways. The OP only wants to hear remarks that agree with him.

There is no discussion here. Just OP agenda. I'm done. Bu-bye. :shk:

You guys were the first to attack - I'm not going to just lie back and take it, because you believe you are adhering to the "true faith", and thus see any negative comment as an attack which you feel must be defended at all costs.

You continually ask questions (which have been answered) but refuse to debate the more controversial points.

If you're done then goodbye.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
You would have to be so utterly uninformed, and down right stupid to be honest, not to see the differences of Christianity and Scientology..... I am truly at a loss of words.

So if someone doesn't conform to your narrow view of reality, then they're obviously "utterly uninformed" and "down right stupid". For being at a "loss of words", you sure don't have a problem finding the words to insult my character.

Oh, and seeing similarities is completely different from not seeing the differences. Way to twist words around.

Will ignorance prevail on this board? You sir, know nothing of religions, or cults, as almost every religion as almost every human social organization is a hierarchy of power.

Actually I was raised in a Catholic family and had first-hand experience with a cult... a Catholic cult in fact. But I suppose you still know better.

And if Scientology was old and Christianity new, of course it would be the other way around, as one would be ingrained in society and one would not.. that again is basic human social structure....

Well there's one similarity. Basic human social structure. Throw the word "primitive" in there and you have religion.

Here's a few more similarities: guilt trips, peer pressure, the act of confessing, excommunication, heirarchy, scandals, money, corruption, blind faith

So if someone doesn't conform to your narrow view of reality, then they're obviously "utterly uninformed" and "down right stupid". For being at a "loss of words", you sure don't have a problem finding the words to insult my character.

If any thing is narrow, it is the OP's and your own beliefs. This thread was fueled by hate, written through spite and had no intention of actually developing a conversation.. you see, the OP has done extremely little to show actual proof of the similarities between these two organizations other then those similarities that are shared throughout ALL human institutions.

Instead he has focused on the Church and its faults, apparently a few issues with a nun of some sort led to a development of hatred.

Oh, and seeing similarities is completely different from not seeing the differences. Way to twist words around.

Except when the "similarities" are so completely generic it could relate one thing to millions of others. I am however confident to say that you will not actually retain any of that.

Actually I was raised in a Catholic family and had first-hand experience with a cult... a Catholic cult in fact. But I suppose you still know better.

Just because you do not conform to a religion and have opposing views, does not make it a cult. That is the words of an ignorant man who reject with all vile energy available the life styles someone else has chosen.

I my self have issues with the Church as well, and its membership and especially its leadership.. but I can say the same for nearly every religion.

Well there's one similarity. Basic human social structure. Throw the word "primitive" in there and you have religion.

The foundations of religion are the true foundations for all societies, and often through religion to empires expand to the lengths they have and do, however religion may hold people back, it is a uniting commonality that unites a people and a society under one belief and common good, something to work together for thus a united people generate united empires which generate power, control and wealth.

To say it is "primitive" shows in stone your lack of knowledge of both religions, and basic human social structures.

guilt trips

Guilty? .. Never met a Christian who would say Christianity makes you feel "guilty" .. perhaps your own personal issues you need to consult about.

peer pressure

"Common man, go to Church, everyones doing it!" ... I was once pressured by a PROTESTANT to join a Bible study. It was rather easy to say no. I personally, and I know a few others, believe Catholics do not need to "study the Bible" in groups.

the act of confessing

This is true, however since Scientology came after Christianity, would it not make more sense to say "Scientology is like Catholicism" instead of the other way around? .. And yes, there is a difference.

excommunication

While I do not know about Scientology type excommunications, I can tell you the Catholic Church only literally "excommunicates" .. Essentially its as the word says.. you can no longer accept communion. Scientology has communion?

heirarchy

Again, what human structure is Anarchy, and can survive as such? None.

scandals

Wow, you consider this a similarity of a RELIGION? All human formed political structures will suffer scandals because of the basic human nature of greed and the natural lust for power and control.

money

.................Most protestant churches think of far .. far more ingenious ways to get money from their congregation then Catholicism OR Scientology. However, money in general? .. All organizations need money my friend, every last one of them.

corruption

This goes with scandals .. an organizations will suffer degeneration through the natural and basic aspects of human nature. It is unavoidable, if atheism where to become 100% of the worlds faith, it to would be corrupted, and through basic human instincts and lust for power and greed, would evolve into a religion.

blind faith

You cannot call someone faith "blind" in the sense that what they see is exactly what they want to see, thus meant to see, it is then essentially the only reality unless one where to have their reality forcefully changed.

To say though that someone who is devote Catholic, devote Jew, devote Mormon what ever.. as "blind" is far more ignorant and backwards and far more narrow minded then any devoted follower of any faith. It is essentially the same basic intolerance, ignorance and willful lack of understanding that you think you work against, through self righteousness you feel your own superiority over those whom you would consider a blind fool, when however you are the lowest inferior form of man, lower then the one who devotes his life to his god, he is not hating for the sake that others believe what he refuses, but for what he may consider his way of life. Where as someone like your self who hates for the sake of hating cannot defend his views on the basis of your God and way of life, but instead because others simply will not conform to your self righteous views on life.

You become what you hate.

Very interesting thread...

It has always bothered me personally how Religion re-enforces one to bow to a master and to follow their orders...

Long live Free Speech, Free Thought, and the fruits of our labors staying in our pockets!

Doc Moreau

Originally posted by DocMoreau
Very interesting thread...

It has always bothered me personally how Religion re-enforces one to bow to a master and to follow their orders...

Long live Free Speech, Free Thought, and the fruits of our labors staying in our pockets!

Doc Moreau

It is very interesting how a formulated dogma can be used to make people through their own free will, hand over that free will and conform to another persons views..........

I personally do not like organized religions, for the reasons you list, however Free speech, free though are completely compatible WITH religion, but through religion can also be oppressed..

Fruits of your labors staying in your pockets? .. Eh, not sure what you meant by that at all, and cannot see how that relates to any church?

Yet again you choose to ignore the issue at hand and try and twist an argument through cherry picking.

I don't hate catholicism - if I did I would have to hate my relatives.

Your arguments throughout the thread have been puerile and belligerent with no attempt to either address the questions in the OP or the subsequent questions.

Freedom of thought? Don't make me laugh, you are as thoroughly indoctrinated as an SS stormtrooper - you sir are an extremist.

Instead of trying to dodge and pass the blame, why not answer the questions posed.

Why not tell us your opinion of jungian dogma and the cover ups of abuse instead of spilling bile and hatred throughout what was supposed to be a civilised discussion?
I'll tell you why - because you cannot - not without falling back on the old trick of deflection and disinfo.

All posted by Rockpuck
Personally I doubt you ever where a Catholic, but assuming you where you are always Catholic, you can stop attending as I have, and you can disagree with everything the Church says and does, but your still Catholic.

Not true - don't enforce your dogma on me

I would not trust Wiki with everything, especially with something as sensitive as the Mother Church, as it has quite a few enemies.

And why is that I wonder?

Bizarre how? By who? By Protostents who think they are different then the RCC? By other outsiders? I see Scientology, because its a quack religion made by a science fiction writer. If you think that RCC is only acceptable because of its age, then my friend, I honest think you need to take a few classes in both history and religion.

Good old sectarianism, alive and well in your hometown

At first glance? My God your probably serious and thats the truly sad part.. You would have to be so utterly uninformed, and down right stupid to be honest, not to see the differences of Christianity and Scientology..... I am truly at a loss of words.

Trying to have a reasonable discussion eh?

Kid, religion is control. Get over it.

Patronising - as if we don't know this

Oh no! .. Surly the world will end from this...........

and now sarcasm - didn't want to answer the question again?

Pointless thing to say, as it did not have any thing to do with what I said.. however it is a democratic process because he is voted, thus democracy.. but hes a monarch, and only the Cardinals elect him.

You... do know that democracy is not the only form of government? ... Ohhhh thats right.

You've been brainwashed.

But you said that "god" was the monarch?

If any thing is narrow, it is the OP's and your own beliefs. This thread was fueled by hate, written through spite and had no intention of actually developing a conversation.. you see, the OP has done extremely little to show actual proof of the similarities between these two organizations other then those similarities that are shared throughout ALL human institutions.

Completely untrue, but of course you are a soldier defending the "mother church" right?

That is the words of an ignorant man who reject with all vile energy available the life styles someone else has chosen.

Nope, but I do choose to questio with an open mind - unlike you sir

................Most protestant churches think of far .. far more ingenious ways to get money from their congregation then Catholicism OR Scientology. However, money in general? .. All organizations need money my friend, every last one of them.

My goodness - more sectarianism - will the RCC never get over losing some members - no, think of the competition and the money lost

And again - jungian dogma please answer
religious wars initiated by RCC please answer
the inquisition please answer
cover up of child abuse please answer

ROCKPUCK .. hang it up bud. He doesn’t want to listen .. he just wants to anti-catholic rant.

Originally posted by budski
Yet again you choose to ignore the issue at hand and try and twist an argument through cherry picking.

That's a laugh, expecially coming from someone who refuses to stay on the topic - 'is Catholicism any different from Scientology'. Every one of your alleged 'similarities' has been destroyed .. and yet you still go on and on with OFF TOPIC anti-Catholic propaganda. Rockpuck has totally stayed on the subject .. pity you can't say the same.

One more time – since budski doesn’t seem to ‘get it’ …

The shopping list of alleged similarities that supposedly make Catholicism and Scientology one in the same (according to the OP) –

Allegation one –

the Catholic church is modeled on the old roman empire,

Already addressed - This is not true and even if it were .. so what? It in no way mirrors scientology.

Allegation two

with a single patriarch at the top

Already addressed - the single patriarch at the top .. SO WHAT? Every organization on the planet has leadership. Some have single leaders .. some have leadership by committee. The OP fails to say why the fact that the Catholic church having a single (elected) patriarch at the top makes this in any way ‘the same’ as scientology.

Allegation three –

Indoctrination into the church starts at birth …

Already addressed – SO WHAT? Every religion on the planet has parents taking their children to worship with them. The OP fails to show how baptism especially makes Catholicism the same as scientology.

Allegation four –

first communion, confirmation, confession, which further indoctrinate

Already addressed - SO WHAT? The OP fails to show how the Catholic church having sacraments in any way mirrors Scientology.

Allegation five –

catholic schools usually run by nuns or Christian brothers

Already addressed – this statement is wrong. Most Catholic schools are NOT run by nuns or Christian brothers. Even if they were … SO WHAT? Most EVERY major religion on the planet has religious schools. The OP fails to show how having people who have dedicated their lives to God running schools would in any way mirror Scientology and the OP fails to explain why he singled out Catholicism … when every religion on the planet has religious schools.

Allegation six –

I believe that religion or spirituality should not be based on guilt

Already addressed - ALL religions are based on guilt. “do it the way our religion says or you are in danger of hellfire (or bad karma).” The OP fails to show how Catholicism is special in this area or how it in any way mirrors scientology.

Allegation seven–

the purpose of Catholicism is the same as that of any multi-national corporation

Already addressed. WRONG. The purpose of Catholicism is to save souls. It may be run like a corporation .. but so is just about every religion on this planet. The OP fails (yet again) to show how this is special to Catholicism.

Allegation eight –

both organizations indoctrinate …

Already addressed. EVERY RELIGION on the planet teaches the people of it’s religion. Again the OP fails to explain why he singled out the Catholics as something special in this area. Every religion teaches it’s beliefs.

Allegation nine –

and brainwash their members

Already addressed. EVERY RELIGION on the planet teaches the people of it’s religion. The OP has a subjective view that teaching is brainwashing. He obviously doesn't understand what brainwashing is. Suggestion - pick up a psychology book and read up on it.

Allegation nine –

for further enrichment and to “spread the word”.

EVERY RELIGION on the planet teaches it’s members and just about every religion on the planet believes that the members should tell others about their beliefs. The OP again fails to explain why he singled out the Catholics as something special in this area.

Allegation ten –

both vigorously defend their beliefs,

Already addressed - This is something sinister? EVERY religion on the planet defends it’s beliefs. The OP, again, fails to explain why he singled out the Catholics from every religion on the planet in this regard.

Allegation eleven

usually to the detriment of any who oppose them

Already addressed - EVERY RELIGION on the planet is going to say that they are right and the other religions are wrong. So why did the OP, again, single out the Catholics? FUNNY .. but the Catholic Catechism actually says that most every religion on the planet has some truth in it . Oh .. that’s just so detrimental *sarcasim*

Allegation twelve –

both hold what can be viewed as bizaare beliefs

Already addressed – viewed as bizarre beliefs – only by those who don’t understand them. Most people think other people’s religions are strange. Again the OP fails to explain why he singled the Catholics out for ‘bizaare beliefs’, when in fact everyone thinks everyone else’s religion is different and strange (until they actually take the time to read up and educate themselves on that faith)

Allegation thirteen –

both have secrecy and rituals known only to those who have reached a certain level of hierarchical attainment

Already addressed. This is bull. After three pages the OP still has failed to prove this statement. What secrecy and rituals known only to those at certain levels??? That’s bunk.

Statement from OP -

this is less about theology and more about organizational structures and methodology of control

Oh really? Then why do you continually FAIL to acknowledge that ALL the allegations about the Catholic Church being the same as Scientology have been destroyed. ALL OF THEM. You are deflecting from the fact that your argument has been destroyed and you are NOT following the subject of this thread. Your deflections of

jungian dogma, religious wars, the inquisition, child abuse

are off topic deflection of how Catholicism = Scientology. The Catholic faith is not Jungian dogma. Scientology was not involved in religious wars or the inquisition. As far as child abuse goes, that isn’t a Catholic problem, it’s a world wide problem with higher child abuse numbers in public schools than in Catholic churches … and as far as we know there isn’t a problem in the Church of Scientology with child abuse so your continued bringing up these four subjects is totally off topic –

The topic is CATHOLICISM = SCIENTOLOGY.
The topic is not CATHOLICISM = WRONG because budski doesn’t like anything about it.

Since scientology isn’t involved with 3 of those topics, and Catholicism isn’t involved with one of them …. Those four allegations are just deflection on your part AND off topic .. with anti-Catholicism humming through them.

instead of spilling bile and hatred throughout what was supposed to be a civilised discussion? I'll tell you why - because you cannot - not without falling back on the old trick of deflection and disinfo.

GLASS HOUSES! Careful! You are describing yourself and your own posts. ROCKPUCK was completely on topic. YOUR anti-catholic blathering was not. None of it had to do with comparing Scientology with Catholicism.

FACT - most everything that the OP singled out Catholicism for is done by most of the major religions in the world. SO WHAT? Why pick the Catholics? Only one answer - anti-Catholic bias. This thread is a complete failure to prove Catholicism = Scientology. Every arguement has been destroyed. This thread is just a shameless anti-Catholic rant. Nothing more.

Originally posted by budski
Instead of trying to dodge and pass the blame, why not answer the questions posed.

Every allegation has been answered at least three times.
YOU ARE NOT LISTENING.
Oh .. and YOU are the one dodging ... admit that all your smoking-gun allegations against the Catholic church are destroyed.

Bu-bye. :shk:



[edit on 6/19/2007 by FlyersFan]

Yet again you choose to ignore the issue at hand and try and twist an argument through cherry picking.

If Cherry picking is what you consider picking and choosing things to answer, then no, because I quote about 95% of the responses I address and directly answer, your childish retaliations against conversational valid points are petty at best, pathetic at worst. I am honestly having a hard time understanding you, the points you give about the relationships of these two organizations are brought up in most of my post, yet you choose to ignore them entirely, and instead of rebutting against my points you sink to.. ahem.. this..

I don't hate catholicism - if I did I would have to hate my relatives.

Your right mate, I consider this a lack of insight into an organization(s) .. and don't think that just because your Catholic you know all there is to know about Catholics..

I do not follow Catholic teachings much anymore, I prefer my own ways, for instance joining Masonry upset a few in my family. While I do not agree with catholicism, I do NOT hate anyone of my avid faithful Catholic family members, as it would be both arrogant and juvenile..

Your arguments throughout the thread have been puerile and belligerent with no attempt to either address the questions in the OP or the subsequent questions.

And your apparent and very public bewilderment at what I am actually saying is shameful at best. Everything I have said is in direct relation to the OP, whether or not you can handle and or retain the information given is your own delima, though I will admit I do not put to much faith in your understanding and comprehension skills......

Freedom of thought? Don't make me laugh, you are as thoroughly indoctrinated as an SS stormtrooper - you sir are an extremist.

And you are an ignorant fool who calls a spade a spade.

SS stormtroopers? Can we get more childish?

Instead of trying to dodge and pass the blame, why not answer the questions posed.

open your eyes kid, and read and COMPREHEND what I said, grant it, I do not conform to your shrewd views..

Not true - don't enforce your dogma on me

This point proves every point I made above, you do not read and comprehend my points, only continue on in dilerium..

I am a firm and avid opposer to all forms of Dogma.

And why is that I wonder?

People like you? Its an open source program? Maybe I should use smaller words for you, so you better understand....

Good old sectarianism, alive and well in your hometown

It will never die.

Trying to have a reasonable discussion eh?

Why is it you want discussion but cast aside all opposing views even though you lack all valid points?

Patronising - as if we don't know this

Some people need to be told straight up...... some people are so dense they still continue to carry on..

But you said that "god" was the monarch?

God is not an incarnate individual is he? I know this is hard.. and I will try one more time... the Pope... is ... a ... man........ who represents.... God.... figuratively... He is... the Monarch of the Religion and STATE of The Vatican....

I would expect ANY Catholic to understand.. except those who think because they belong they understand, though ignorance is a truly blinding force, ignorance is the leader in this blind faith you and those like you protest, while it is the same thing you carry..

Completely untrue, but of course you are a soldier defending the "mother church" right?

FlyersFan...

Am I a soldier dedicated to defending the Mother Church?

Nuff Said eh?

Nope, but I do choose to questio with an open mind - unlike you sir

Questions can be asked with an open mind, and they can be ranted with a closed mind.

My goodness - more sectarianism - will the RCC never get over losing some members - no, think of the competition and the money lost

Largest single Church in the world buddy, though Protestants are more glamorous, modern and are directed to appeal, while the Mother Church is simply the Church.

Some people don't need fools with guitars and childish dancing and spasms in the pews to worship. Some do. To each his own.

Ah, trying the tag team routine again eh? jeez you guys are really predictable.

BTW flyersfan - thanks for proving me right

originally posted by FlyersFan
FACT - most everything that the OP singled out Catholicism for is done by most of the major religions in the world.

You have just proved my theory

The fact that I picked catholocism is (as previously explained) because I was raised as one.
Didn't say that any other religion was different - just highlighted 2 of them to draw parallels.

Thanks again!