Showing You How Published Witnesses to the Pentagon Attack aren't proof of an AA 757 Impact from th

(title con't..."from the South side of the Citgo")

This in response to the very dubious "witness" list compiled by Arabesque.

I will be turning this into a published piece, but I would first like to work it all out here. I will try and do in the order of Arabesque's quotes & witnesses listed on his page.

I hope there are some realizations and concessions regarding the information I will present.

Please try and refrain from starting debates in this thead, as I am trying to use this simple post witness after witness debunked or scrutinized. If you would like to comment, please keep it the witness analyses. I would prefer that people just not post at all, so I can create post after post, honed in on one witness at a time.



[edit on 7-6-2007 by Aldo Marquis]

“The plane approached the Pentagon… slicing into the building, said Lee Evey" [136]

[136] Lee Evey

Lee Evey is not a witness. He was the Pentagon Renovation Mgr. He was at home when the attack occured.


TFM: Can you describe what it felt like to see the Pentagon in person, for the first time after the attack?

LE: It was a shock. Everyone has seen pictures of the outer wall. Naturally, it was shocking to see on the front page of the newspaper and on television. But believe me, as shocking as those things were, they didn't come anywhere close to the visceral response I got when I saw it myself.

www.todaysfacilitymanager.com...


You just lost one.

I am curious. What exactly is your purpose here Aldo? To promote todaysfacilitymanager?

10. “I saw the plane hit and the fireball and explosion at the Pentagon.”[127]

[127]Susan Carroll

Really?

She was on the Reagan Metro platform.

Please explain how she saw the plane hit:

i40.photobucket.com...



Then you have Allen Cleveland and Meseidy Rodriguez as witnesses who were on a train, just pulling onto the reagan platform with their back to the Pentagon.

i40.photobucket.com...




Yet here is what "Arabesque" states as their account:

Allen Cleveland: “He saw a jetliner flying low over the tree tops near Seminary RD in Springfield, VA.”[57]

Meseidy Rodriguez: “[it was] flying low over the tree tops near Seminary Rd.”[86]

The same account for both. Yet that statement is attributed to Cleveland referring to what his brother-in-law claims he saw.

Yet Arabesque not only attributes it to Cleveland, but to Rodriguez as well.

None of these three could see the impact, let alone the Pentagon.

You just lost 3.

Mod Edit: Image Size – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 7/6/2007 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by intrepid
I am curious. What exactly is your purpose here Aldo? To promote todaysfacilitymanager?

That's the link to the quote. Please help me out and please do not disrupt this thread.

Thanks.

58. “[the plane flew] fast and low over his car and struck the Pentagon.”[175]

[175] Henry Ticknor

Ironically, the ariticle is called "He Who Steals My Good Name"...

Henry Ticknor

"Recently I went on-line and did a search on my name. Not too many surprises, lots of sermons, a couple of newspaper items about my days with the Fairfax County Public Schools, a few references to my name in the Winchester Star. But the most interesting was a 9-11 conspiracy theory site that quoted me as an eyewitness to the attack on the Pentagon. Comments, attributed to me, but printed without my knowledge or permission were used to support the notion that it may not have been a plane that struck the Pentagon, but rather a missile. The web page says, "This is the only witness statement that seems to have caught the white smoke which would agree with a missile being fired. Henry Ticknor, intern minister at the Unitarian Universalist Church of Arlington, Virginia was driving to church that Tuesday morning when American Airlines flight 77 came in fast and low over his car and truck the Pentagon. "There was a puff of white smoke and then a billowing black cloud."

Where did that come from? No idea, unless it was lifted from a UU World Magazine article for which I was interviewed at some length as an eyewitness. You see on the morning of September 11, I was driving down Rt. 50 on my way to work at the Arlington UU Church when I saw a plane dive below the tree line and an immediate explosion. I did tell the World Magazine about the smoke; I never said the plane came in fast and low over my car, as I was five miles from the point of impact. Where is my right to privacy?"

www.uushenandoah.org...

You just lost another one. (Note he said dive also)

Aldo, look up in your control panel, there's a red square that says u2u's, that's private messages. Click on it please.

“[the [plane flew] over Ft Myer picking off trees and light poles near the helicopter pad next to building.” [27]

[27] Tom Hovis

Gentlemen,

On this day of prayer I went to the Pentagon and prayed for those Americans that died at the hands of those evil monsters.

My office is 8 miles from the site. The recovery teams working 18 hour shifts are just now getting to the body of the aircraft that went right through the outer ring at full power according to eyewitnesses.. Being a former transport type (60's era) I cannot understand how that plane hit where it did giving the direction the aircraft was taking at the time.


As most know, the Pentagon lies at the bottom of two hills from the west with the east side being next to the river at 14th street bridge. One hill is at the Navy Annex and the other is Arlington Cemetery. The plane came up I-395 also known as Shirley Hwy. (most likely used as a reference point.) The plane had been seen making a lazy pattern in the no fly zone over the White House and US Cap. Why the plane did not hit incoming traffic coming down the river from the north to Reagan Nat'l. is beyond me. Strangely, no one at the Reagan Tower noticed the aircraft. Andrews AFB radar should have also picked up the aircraft I would think. Nevertheless, the aircraft went southwest near Springfield and then veered left over Arlington and then put the nose down coming over Ft Myer picking off trees and light poles near the helicopter pad next to building. It was as if he leveled out at the last minute and put it square into the building. The wings came off as if it went through an arch way leaving a hole in the side of the building it seems a little larger than the wide body of the aircraft. The entry point was so clean that the roof (shown in news photo) fell in on the wreckage. They are just now getting to the passengers today. The nose wheel I understand is in the grass near the second ring. Right now it is estimated that it will take two years to repair the damage. Ironically, the area had just been remodeled with most of the area was still blocked off and some offices were empty.

[...]

www.beanerbanner.com...

Note that he places the plane over the capitol also. Which is in DIRECT contradiction to the NTSB flight path, but curiously arab did not cite this.

Tom Hovis is NOT a witness AT ALL. You just lost another one.

“It was no more than 30 feet off the ground.” [58]

[58] Dan Creed

"He and two colleagues from Oracle software were stopped in a car near the Naval Annex, next to the Pentagon, when they saw the plane dive down and level off.

There is only one place he could be stopped in a car near the Navy Annex.

Right here:

i40.photobucket.com...

But his view is obstructed by the treeline on Columbia Pike.

i40.photobucket.com...

i40.photobucket.com...

Most improtatntly his account does not make mention of even seeing an impact-just the plane, nor does it state which side of the annex /Citgo the plane was on, because Arab never contacted him to confirm it.

In fact, Isabel James who he also cites as a witness to the impact was on the same part of Columbia Pike.

“[It went] inside the side of the Pentagon. Obviously, it was going in the Pentagon purposefully. I told my husband ‘he’s going into the Pentagon.’ We heard the direct hit—huge crash, saw this fireball, flame and smoke.” Reporter: ‘so you actually saw the plane impact the side of the building?’ [Isabel:] “Yes I did.”

[195] Isabel James

She also said she was on Columbia Pike. The reporter also asked her if she only saw 1 plane.(Exactly our point about the flyover plane confusing reporters/people, being called a second plane). She reinforces "So you actually saw the plane enter the building?" Why is that? Because the reporter is confused by people who said it did not hit the building.

Most importantly, the reporter asked if she saw any markings. She says...

"we were driving down Columbia Pike and it just shrew right over us... I didn't see any markings...the trees...the treeline (blocked our view).

Here is the bend on Columbia Pike to the left, with the treeline:

i40.photobucket.com...

Here is the rest of the treeline:

i40.photobucket.com...

Clearly she is speaking figuratively, and didn't clearly understand why the reporter was asking if she "actually saw it enter the building". She saw a plane, saw the explosion through trees and DEDUCED that it hit. And said "Why yes , I saw the plane hit the building".

You just lost two.

Mod Edit: Image Size – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 7/6/2007 by Mirthful Me]

Get him Aldo!

Arabasque clearly has not done any legitimate research.

Aldo will proceed to demonstrate how published witness accounts are manipulated to support the official story when virtually all of them could just as easily support a flyover.

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT

Aldo will proceed to demonstrate how published witness accounts are manipulated to support the official story when virtually all of them could just as easily support a flyover.

Is this your 2nd account or something along the lines of that? Trying to pressure people into believing your tales and to get them to buy your DVD?




[edit on 8-6-2007 by Fett Pinkus]

Please keep your nasty, sarcastic, uninformed comments out of this thread.

This thread is for thinkers, not provocatuers.

(Mod: Please delete the above antagonistic post)

Aldo, I just did a Google search on ATS and look what I found:

Above Top Secret - Uncovering Government Secrets
Conspiracy related discusion about a wide range of topics in the Above Top Secret website discussion forums. Our topics include freemasons, illuminati, ...

The key word there is bolded. SO OK'd this BUT I don't recall him changing this forum into ANYONES soap box. Thus members can post, inside the T&C of coarse.

Originally posted by Aldo Marquis
(Mod: Please delete the above antagonistic post)

Would you like some fries with that?

I think you will find that you've come to the wrong place if you think you can order the staff around and bully our members into submission.
.

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
when virtually all of them could just as easily support a flyover.

IF and thats a big IF , it did " fly over " - can you produce credible evidence that it did ?

witnesses from the otherside of the pentagon etc

i assume you accept that an explosion occured - which would have focused attention towards that area , making them [ potential witnesses on the other side ] more likley to spot a plane doing an over fly

Originally posted by intrepid
Aldo, I just did a Google search on ATS and look what I found:

Above Top Secret - Uncovering Government Secrets
Conspiracy related discusion about a wide range of topics in the Above Top Secret website discussion forums. Our topics include freemasons, illuminati, ...

The key word there is bolded. SO OK'd this BUT I don't recall him changing this forum into ANYONES soap box. Thus members can post, inside the T&C of coarse.

Where is the discussion?

I see a subtle accustation of profiteering.

NOTE: We haven't even made DVD's.

But I can see nothing has changed here at this forum.

So I will just continue on slaying people with ACTUAL researched FACTS.

Originally posted by Gools

Originally posted by Aldo Marquis
(Mod: Please delete the above antagonistic post)

Would you like some fries with that?

I think you will find that you've come to the wrong place if you think you can order the staff around and bully our members into submission.

.

I love the avatar. It's almost like homage paid to me. (I've used that avatar many places).

I'm not here to bully people. But it appears people are frightened of my research.

How about I just let my research bully you? I can bully you with facts. I will bully you without even bullying you. How 'bout that?

[edit on 8-6-2007 by Aldo Marquis]

Originally posted by ignorant_ape

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
when virtually all of them could just as easily support a flyover.

IF and thats a big IF , it did " fly over " - can you produce credible evidence that it did ?

witnesses from the otherside of the pentagon etc

i assume you accept that an explosion occured - which would have focused attention towards that area , making them [ potential witnesses on the other side ] more likley to spot a plane doing an over fly

Again know the area. Know the cover story (second plane). Know how fast that jet was moving in relation to how fast that fireball gather strength. Know the fact that jets fly and take off in that area all the time.

Please keep the debate questions out of this thread, as I am trying to use this thread to debunk and scrutinize witness accounts.

"Next to me was a cab from D.C., its windshield smashed out by pieces of lampposts.” [24]

[24] Don Fortunato

NOT A WITNESS!!!


Don Fortunato, a plainclothes detective with the Arlington (Va.) Police Department, was walking into his office, when he heard a muffled explosion—construction, he thought. Then his radio started squawking news of a plane crash at the Pentagon. “I grabbed my radio, ran to my car and pulled on my bulletproof vest and headed toward the thick, black smoke billowing out of the sky,” he said. “Traffic was at a standstill, so I parked on the shoulder, not far from the scene and ran to the site. Next to me was a cab from D.C., its windshield smashed out by pieces of lampposts. There were pieces of the plane all over the highway, pieces of wing, I think.”

You just lost another one.

"They turned and ran, and at the point of impact were partially shielded by their fire truck from the flying debris of shrapnel and flames.” [183]


[183] Yeingst, William

Arabesque. You are very disappointing.

William Yeingst is not a witness. He is a curator at the Smithsonian.

You just lost another. Wait you never even had this one.

[edit on 8-6-2007 by Aldo Marquis]