Mass Grave May Contain Thousands of Jews Killed by Nazis Found in Ukraine

Originally posted by seagull
Realtruth. They aren't saying they are Jews, they are saying they may be Jews. Odds are good that they are, but they may not be. Let's wait until all the evidence is in before we go to either extreme.

No one, least of all I, deny that many, many others aside from those of the Jewish faith died at the hands of the Nazi's.

My grandparents escaped Eastern Poland before the Nazi's got there. They were Jewish. However, it may be noted that anyone who was not of the Aryan race was considered to be...sub-human.

I guess it was easier to pick out the Jews since they worshipped differently and in different buildings/temples. It's amazing what inflated sense of self importance can do to a country when they get to believing the lies they tell about themselves.

Ah, but I digress.

Originally posted by seagull
Realtruth. They aren't saying they are Jews, they are saying they may be Jews. Odds are good that they are, but they may not be. Let's wait until all the evidence is in before we go to either extreme.

No one, least of all I, deny that many, many others aside from those of the Jewish faith died at the hands of the Nazi's.

Point taken, but my whole interjection was that the article title is a bit loaded or one sided. Instead of saying "Jews" they should have just said "people" killed by the Nazis.

Do you see where I am coming from?

I do indeed see where you're coming from, I suppose we're discussing semantics more than anything else.

When all is said and done, these poor souls were people not Jews not Slavs just people.

My a**.These people were killed for being born and raised jewish.Why dont you people judge others by their actions and not their birthright?

KilgoreTrout,
You cannot discount that this mass grave could very well be from the Soviet pogroms. Remember, the Soviets murdered 7 million people in the Ukraine (1932-33). A number much higher than that of Nazi atrocities in the same region.

The Soviets also had concentration camps in the Ukraine where the elderly and youthful were of no use. Roughly 3 million Ukranian children were murdered during this time.

Ukranian Massacre

Murdered by Moscow

Originally posted by Realtruth

Point taken, but my whole interjection was that the article title is a bit loaded or one sided. Instead of saying "Jews" they should have just said "people" killed by the Nazis.

Do you see where I am coming from?

Is there anything really wrong with saying these may be Jewish people?

According to the article they think they were because that's the general area where some specific camp was located.

So tell us "realtruth", what is so bad about the word "Jewish" that you feel you need to make it such a deal?

Yes, it is true many other people of different ethnic groups were killed, but if the evidence points to these people being Jewish because of the area the bodies were found, why try to change a word which describes a group of people who suffered greatly and were mass murdered?.....


[edit on 6-6-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by Realtruth

Point taken, but my whole interjection was that the article title is a bit loaded or one sided. Instead of saying "Jews" they should have just said "people" killed by the Nazis.

Do you see where I am coming from?

Is there anything really wrong with saying these may be Jewish people?

According to the article they think they were because that's the general area where some specific camp was located.

So tell us "realtruth", what is so bad about the word "Jewish" that you feel you need to make it such a deal?

Yes, it is true many other people of different ethnic groups were killed, but if the evidence points to these people being Jewish because of the area the bodies were found, why try to change a word which describes a group of people who suffered greatly and were mass murdered?.....

Perhaps because people of Ukranian descent do not remember just one holocaust. The perpetrators of the earlier and more horrific mass killings have gone unpunished and there is virtually no knowledge of what the Soviets did in that country, it has been overshadowed by Shoah. There is no racism in Realtruths assertion that these victims should be refered to as "people", just a desire for the fact to be seen that many others were murdered in the Ukraine, not just "Jews".

i met a holocaust survivor he was giving his life story and selling his book "My Brothers Voice" i believe his name was Stephen Nasser.
my first time here
=)

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by Realtruth

Point taken, but my whole interjection was that the article title is a bit loaded or one sided. Instead of saying "Jews" they should have just said "people" killed by the Nazis.

Do you see where I am coming from?

Is there anything really wrong with saying these may be Jewish people?

According to the article they think they were because that's the general area where some specific camp was located.

So tell us "realtruth", what is so bad about the word "Jewish" that you feel you need to make it such a deal?

Nothing wrong with it, just a bit premature. And who said anything about the word "Jewish" being bad? Are you trying to put words into my mouth?

And why would you assume that is my position?

I am making a big deal, absolutely not just trying to be fair to everyone.

I am strictly talking about being fair until the evidence has been examined and the facts released.

Does it truly matter the numbers of one race vs. another because there was so much loss and suffering everywhere in Europe, due to the Nazis. The Nazis killed, hurt and tortured many people, races, cripples, handicaps, mentally challenged, ethnicities. We must honor all those who fell prey to the Nazis genocide and torture campaign. Do you agree with this statement?

Geez, I can't believe there is even an argument about this. I can't believe there are people who think the holocost never happened. I suppose...

Originally posted by paigcal
Geez, I can't believe there is even an argument about this. I can't believe there are people who think the holocost never happened. I suppose...

You would be surprised how far hatred goes.. to hate a people so much that you think they lied about the deaths of millions in order to establish some kind of superiority guilt trip over it.. yeah, if you hate enough you can believe it.

The bodies CAN be identified as Jewish with what they where burried with, their belongings or lack of, clothing (patches or something) and also you can see how long they have been dead for, as well as manor of death, that being close proximity to a camp, it is obvious. Unless it was at the end of the war and this was a hurried draining of the camp, the Nazi party kept excellent record of who they killed -- hence the biggest evidence that it DID happen. To deny without proof is simply hate, the crimes that where committed are in historic accuracy.

Can they be Soviet peasants? Sure they could, but a soviet peasant would not be wearing (nothing) or a prison outfit, all dressed accordingly.

Aside from that, often those who starved where buried by their families, and sometimes the Army would burn the bodies to stop the spread of disease (don't want to make your workers sick now......) but the Peasants also would not have died all at the same time, but a trickle and gradual incline, eventually to much for peasant farmers to handle, they would have burned to spare time instead of burying as well. Stalin was cruel, much crueler then Hitler, but these have the distinct markings of a WWII era massacre committed by the minds of Germans.

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Originally posted by paigcal
Geez, I can't believe there is even an argument about this. I can't believe there are people who think the holocost never happened. I suppose...

You would be surprised how far hatred goes.. to hate a people so much that you think they lied about the deaths of millions in order to establish some kind of superiority guilt trip over it.. yeah, if you hate enough you can believe it.

Who's denying anything? Just don't forget that the Ukraine was one massive death camp when the Soviets were in power and many millions still lie beneath the ground, undiscovered.

A superiority guilt trip? Yeah, that would be the only reason...

Here, do some reading.

The Holocaust Industry

What Does Raul Hilberg Say?

The bodies CAN be identified as Jewish with what they where burried with, their belongings or lack of, clothing (patches or something) and also you can see how long they have been dead for, as well as manor of death, that being close proximity to a camp, it is obvious. Unless it was at the end of the war and this was a hurried draining of the camp, the Nazi party kept excellent record of who they killed -- hence the biggest evidence that it DID happen.

To deny without proof is simply hate, the crimes that where committed are in historic accuracy.

Can they be Soviet peasants? Sure they could, but a soviet peasant would not be wearing (nothing) or a prison outfit, all dressed accordingly.

Aside from that, often those who starved where buried by their families, and sometimes the Army would burn the bodies to stop the spread of disease (don't want to make your workers sick now......) but the Peasants also would not have died all at the same time, but a trickle and gradual incline, eventually to much for peasant farmers to handle, they would have burned to spare time instead of burying as well. Stalin was cruel, much crueler then Hitler, but these have the distinct markings of a WWII era massacre committed by the minds of Germans.

Well, obviously by your erudite summation of how the identity of the bodies can be proven, I guess it's all over bar the shouting.

What peasants? Do you know anything about the Soviet murders in the Ukraine? You make it sound as if these "peasants" died of natural causes and weren't exterminated en masse.

Please tell me, what are the "distinct markings" that determine once and for all that the Nazi's killed these people?

If you don't mind, I think I'll await more concrete evidence than your say so.

I think it's rather disgusting that anywhere in Europe that mass graves are found (over 60 years old) it's immediately put down to the Nazi's and that the victims were Jews. Kind of insulting to the Ukranians who were murdered on their home soil (by Nazi's or Soviets), don't you think?




[edit on 6/6/2007 by Beelzebubba]

Originally posted by Beelzebubba
KilgoreTrout,
You cannot discount that this mass grave could very well be from the Soviet pogroms. Remember, the Soviets murdered 7 million people in the Ukraine (1932-33). A number much higher than that of Nazi atrocities in the same region.

The Soviets also had concentration camps in the Ukraine where the elderly and youthful were of no use. Roughly 3 million Ukranian children were murdered during this time.

Ukranian Massacre

Murdered by Moscow

Why can I not discount that it is a result of the pogroms when the evidence suggests that this is a Nazi grave and as such a rare find. The experts that are examing the bodies have done this before. They have examined a lot of graves containing the bodies of those killed under Stalin. I respect the work that they do enough to respect their considered opinion. I am not about to pop my head over their shoulders and say what I think, I have only ever seen photographs of mass graves, I am not qualified.

Given that the bodies are old people and children, that the bodies are without signs of clothing, that they're are no apparent injuries to suggest they died by being shot - then yes in my limited opinion I think that that is more suggestive of the SS than it is of the Russian pogroms.

The very rarity of this find is because the Einsatzgruppen carried out these activities in relative seclusion. Only occasionally did they deviant from their directives and openly massacre groups of people, most of the time their were no witnesses. It is only in the past decade that men who made up these units have begun to talk about these murders and we have learnt the full extent of these actions.

I think that the news is being overly conclusive about the victims being Jews. Only the New York Times and UPI on the day reported it as a mass grave probably of victims of the Nazis. It may be bias or ignorance or conspiracy to prematurely conclude that the victims are jews, I personally think it is more general ignorance. It is more comforting to think that it was only jews that were killed by the Nazis and I think the mass media would much prefer that we were to think that it was only jews that were murdered.

Either way, I don't discount that they were victims of the pogroms the evidence as released does. If this changes I will correct my remarks until then i stand by my opinion.

All this happened before when a large hole in the ground with about 3,600 bodies were found......Oi Vey, Oi Vey they are Jews killed by Germany... well, they were the bodies of Polish soldiers killed with a bulltet in the back of the head by the Russian secret police.

I would suggest that everyone calm down and to use the word "bodies" instead of "Jews" (hell, even Cubans) till they find out for sure.

And if they are Jews so what? this was long ago and the number of the "holocaust" would go from 178,00 to 181,000 and nothing more.

I worried more about the (average) 3 Palestinian kids being killed by the IDF every day.

I am absolutely shocked that the Mods have not come in here an sent u2u's out to warn members, Doesnt matter weither they are Jewish, Gypsies, Black, Gay, White or POW's, there is a mass grave there, thousands were killed, doesnt matter if it is part of History. It is still a reminder of what happened back then...

These People were killed... Arguing over who they are is ridiculous.

The hatred I have seen in this thread is astounding. Jewish people have every god damm right to be on this earth, same as any other person who lives on this earth.

Why dont everyone just wait until they get the dna results from this mass grave before arguing over speculation.

I hope they rest in peace whom ever they are, and their families can have peace of mind, in knowing that the bodies will, finally be laid at peace.

First, to all the people that deny that a Holocaust of Jews, Gypsies, etc. took place roughly during the timeframe of WWII there is incredible and insurmountable evidence to the contrary. The “good” thing is that the Nazi’s themselves were such good bookkeepers and record keepers that overtime they unquestionably accumulated a vast amount of collective works, if you will, on the precise methods of extermination. They did this to the point of documenting precisely the name and ethnic background of the people entering these death camps. There is evidence in the form of de-lousing documents (which many Holocaust survivors have later used to prove they were housed at the death camps), execution documentation, medical records, transport lists, records of arrest (very key to the whole argument because they documented where they were arrested with verifiable addresses), and registration books but to name a few.

These records come from various sources including the Bad Arolsen records, the famous Mauthausen “Totenbuch”, and various other death camp books which precisely recorded both the methods of execution and the prisoners’ names. The Nazi’s left a paper trail literally 16 miles long of all the atrocities they committed and you can go and see for yourself if you want here: Bad Arolsen Tracing Service

Now, in lieu of people asking how they would ever be able to determine if the bodies found in mass graves such as this were Jewish or not is reasonably simple to answer. There is a branch of science called Forensic DNA sampling ( Forensics ) that can be used to determine all of the following and more: Age, Nutritional background, method of death, etc. With this method of uncovering evidence it is possible to take bone, blood, teeth, hair, fingernails, and tissue and determine a specific location that the sample came from. For instance, if a certain bone fragment was found to have an abundance of Fluoride and was not of a prehistoric age it could be determined that the specific person it belonged to lived in a heavily fluoridated region of the Earth. Same thing goes for other chemical and biological compounds found in bone fragment or teeth fragment that can be used in Forensic science, Archaeology, and Anthropology to verify where a certain bone fragment came from. Science itself is on the brink of literally crushing the long held beliefs Holocaust deniers (specifically those seeking to disprove the genocide of the Jewish and Gypsy ethnic groups). Also, with new developments in Forensic science it is possible to take samples from these mass graves and compare their genetic code to that of known people of a certain lineage. So, if the people that died in those mass graves that were recently found have living ancestors it would effectively be possible to obtain nearly 100% verifiable evidence that they were of Jewish descent. Ballistics testing in Forensics is another important avenue to explore as well. If any bullet fragments are found, or bullet remnants such as a specific powder used as an explosive device inside the bone fragments of those in the mass graves then those bullets or fragments could be linked to be of Nazi manufacture or by the manufacturer that sold them to the Nazi’s. To all the naysayer’s, yes, it can be PROVEN that those bodies were of Jewish descent and those atrocities were in fact committed by the Nazi’s. Time will tell…

It’s quite interesting that the Nazi regime took the time to keep all of these records for the well known “Nazi Doctors of Death”, so that they could use their ridiculously bad science to determine that the Jewish race in particular was inferior to that of others. In turn, what they have actually provided us of the 21st Century with is a list of atrocities preformed on a certain group of people that has all but confirmed that they committed these atrocities, and if they did not kill up to 6 million people of Jewish descent...Where have all those extra Jewish people been hiding all these years? If the Nazi’s wanted to keep their extinction of the Jewish, Gypsy, Black, etc. peoples hidden then they did a pretty poor job of doing so, which I can gather one thing from: If they had not been stopped they would have continued to commit genocide against people’s of particular descent.

Don't want to believe all this? Maybe anyone trying to deny a Jewish Genocide program should read the Nazi S.S. Officer's own words: Pieces of the Trial

Search around on this page as well: Criticism of Holocaust Denial

Jazzerman? very good and an excelent post.......BUT, no one keep records of the 11 millions Germans and 21 millions Russians that were killed AFTER WWWII.......... I don't see anyone talking for them.

Let's say that it is true, ok ? and that the Gemans killed 6 millions Jews, why should the world keep on paying the Jews (Zionists) any money?, if it was stolen money or returned property then I say GOOD IT WAS THEIRS TO START WITH.....but why should the world keep on giving, giving and giving?

I alrady said what the US is giving those people and my feelings about it so I won't said again.

Some kind of bank (forgot the name) wanted to return money in their bank directly to the Jews (or family member) to whom this money belonged .......and you know what? those controlling the situation in the Jewish side said NO, you give it to us and we will give it to them.

I have read many horrors stories like the one about this old Jewish couple that don't even have money to heat up their home while those controlling the money live in fancy hotels and drive luxury cars.

The Jews (Zionists) like to say "We shall never forget" and that's ok with me but why shove it down my throat?, once they start doing that is no longer only their problem but also the problem that they will find with me.

Grumble, grumble, grumble

Originally posted by PONCE
...BUT, no one keep records of the 11 millions Germans and 21 millions Russians that were killed AFTER WWWII.......... I don't see anyone talking for them...

...why should the world keep on paying the Jews (Zionists) any money?, if it was stolen money or returned property then I say GOOD IT WAS THEIRS TO START WITH.....but why should the world keep on giving, giving and giving?

For the first part I quoted from what you said I would have to do a little more research and find what I can. This thread was specifically talking about the Jewish Mass graves, and not about Germans or Russians, and I want to keep it on topic. Maybe create a thread about the German and Russian killings and I could post what I find in that thread?

As for the second part I quoted...I'm not in a position to decide how much money is given to who and for what reason it is given. Is it right to pay people of Jewish descent for the atrocities committed against them or their ancestors? That's for everyone on this board to decide, and I prefer not to give my opinion on that.

Thanks for your answer, while you are at it find out who was incharged of the Gulags in Russia and the German prison camps after WWII....and keep in mind the name of Salomon in case you run across it....thanks.

The politics at the close of WWII were complex to say the least. My guess is that the United States knew well of this and likely other mass graves but chose to foster a political relationship with Russia insofar as to know what they were up to in the future. As the larger country, they posed a greater potential threat to future national security concerns.

In short, the Germans gave the United States both the strategic and political means of a continued victory in WWII. The Russians, however, could not provide that although their atrocities were just as horrific. And because of the reach into Europe with our allies at the time, the United States could only recover so much information as to the location of these graves.

As time goes on, more will become evident, sadly.