HAARP could be useful in removing CO2 from the atmosphere.

A stairway to heaven?

MOST solutions to the problem of global warming are tediously, almost oppressively, quotidian. Switch the lights off. Stop using fossil fuels to make electricity. Run an efficient car. Don't fly. A few grandiose projects have also been suggested, such as giant parasols in space or adding iron to the ocean to encourage planktonic algae to grow and soak up carbon dioxide. On the whole, though, those big ideas are either mad or could have dangerously unpredictable consequences.

That does not mean that lateral thinking about the problem has no place. And the idea proposed by Alfred Wong of the University of California, Los Angeles, at last week's meeting of the American Geophysical Union, in Acapulco, is about as lateral as they come. Dr Wong reckons the problem is not so much that CO2 is being thrown away, but that it is not being thrown far enough. According to his calculations, a little helping hand would turn the Earth's magnetic field into a conveyor belt that would vent the gas into outer space, whence it would never return.

The site of the conveyor Dr Wong is proposing to build is the Arctic. More specifically, he is suggesting it be over one of his workplaces, the High Power Auroral Stimulation facility near Fairbanks in Alaska that he set up 20 years ago to stimulate and study artificial auroras.

While theoretical, this certainly sounds like a plausible idea. I like the fact that the CO2 would leave the earth entirely, rather than being stored in the ocean or underground.

The key to the plan is energy from charged particles that enter the earth's atmosphere from space. The particles should transfer some of their energy to the CO2 ions as they are rising through the atmosphere. This free energy would keep the power requirements for the radio waves that lift the CO2 ions to a minimum. Thus the CO2 removed would exceed the greenhouse gases created by generating the power used by the lasers and radio emitters.

While the article doesn't mention the use of HAARP directly, it certainly seems that the facility could be modified for the purpose, if need be.

I don't seen any indication that HAARP itself could do this, rather that the site just happens to be an obvious place for this new idea (rather than building a completely new facility elsewhere).... though I'm dubious about whether it's really practical or even the sort of thing we should be doing.

I still say using less fossil fuels and energy in general is the logical and sensible answer (and thus the one humans are less likely to adopt).

carbon and oxygen are both valuable chemicals, throwing them away would be wasteful nonsense. this unfounded radicalism, which is so common in fashionable political trends, is a tell tale sign of emotional self-reinforcement. from here, there are few options left, the craze will either end in tears ('we put sulfuric acid in the atmosphere at a high cost and only got acid rainshowers to show') or ridicule in one way or another.

i certainly favor the latter, even though i'm no longer confident. how can _anyone_ propose throwing away our atmosphere? think about it for a second, it's an extremely precious thing to have, isn't it? the same, of course, applies to many other proposals, most importantly, any 'nuke' ideas, or the ones which involve large orbital 'shades'.. how much do you think does a pound of orbital payload cost and why? is it environmentally friendly?

is HAARP environmentally friendly? who's going to foot the power bill and how will the energy required for this proposal be produced? from Alaskan methane?

[edit on 2.6.2007 by Long Lance]

you people are asleep. HAARP , the cure ??? Wake up ! Stay away from the hogwash please!

The article is interesting - the bit about the CO2 is literally correct but Wong is lying about the lasers. You can get all the electrons deposited into the ionosphere you could want with the array directly, especially when the sunspots are active.


Then the other bit with the stochastic resonance you can get as well, just not in the same configuration.

More entertainingly, he may be presenting his paper now, but the idea was pitched a while back, and bids went out for satellite based versions of both functions.

Yeah great idea! Lets remove all the CO2 from the athmosphere. This will kill all the plants on land and oceans which are the source of O2. I mean who the hell needs O2 or CO2, right!? They are clearly bad pollutions. Downside of the lack of O2 though is that every single O2 breathing lifeform would also die but as long as we get rid of that pesky CO2 we should be just dandy.

[edit on 10/6/07 by Gonjo]

If you guys want to get rid of the pesky greenhouse gasses you need to drain the oceans and lakes and get rid of all the trees. Water vapor being responsible for 95% of the greenhouse effect and trees and oceans being 95% of the source of CO2. Shall we start getting rid of those nasty greenhouse gas emitters?

Don't plants use CO2 to make oxygen? Less CO2 would lead to less plants, which leads to less oxygen, wouldn't it?

Essan, the possibility of HAARP removing CO2 is raised in Eastlund's original patent, it's not a new idea. Just thought I'd point that out. Its in the first of the three he registered regarding HAARP. I only have it as a PDF, but I recommend that anybody that's interested in the capabilities of the installation get the file from the USPO website, as I have seen 'edited' versions on some of the wackier sites.

I disagree with you all. C02 is Irrelevent almost. Just IMHO. Does anyone here know anything about HAARP?

Originally posted by StreetCorner Philosopher
I disagree with you all. C02 is Irrelevent almost. Just IMHO.

Well, I tend to agree with you, because I'm more a believer in the cosmic ray/solar variability theory. But I'd bet that's not what you meant.

Does anyone here know anything about HAARP?

Why, yes, oddly enough, although I didn't get my info from Begich or YouTube.

Our government of course has one their own story of what HAARP does:

HAARP stands for High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program


This is from the Alaskan University's website

www.haarp.alaska.edu...

Program Purpose

HAARP is a scientific endeavor aimed at studying the properties and behavior of the ionosphere, with particular emphasis on being able to understand and use it to enhance communications and surveillance systems for both civilian and defense purposes.

The HAARP program is committed to developing a world class ionospheric research facility consisting of:

* The ionospheric research instrument (IRI), a high power transmitter facility operating in the HF frequency range. The IRI will be used to temporarily excite a limited area of the ionosphere for scientific study.
* A sophisticated suite of Scientific (or "diagnostic") instruments that will be used to observe the physical processes that occur in the excited region.

Observation of the processes resulting from the use of the IRI in a controlled manner will allow scientists to better understand processes that occur continuously under the natural stimulation of the sun.

Scientific instruments installed at the HAARP Observatory will be useful for a variety of continuing research efforts which do not involve the use of the IRI but are strictly passive. Among these studies include ionospheric characterization using satellite beacons, telescopic observation of the fine structure in the aurora, and documentation of long-term variations in the ozone layer.

Tom here is Begich's site www.haarp.net... although he does sound a bit crazy he probably isn't that far off on the effects.

HAARP Boils the Upper Atmosphere

HAARP will zap the upper atmosphere with a focused and steerable electromagnetic beam. It is an advanced model of an "ionospheric heater." (The ionosphere is the electrically-charged sphere surrounding Earth's upper atmosphere. It ranges between 40 to 60 miles above the surface of the Earth.)

Put simply, the apparatus for HAARP is a reversal of a radio telescope; antenna send out signals instead of receiving. HAARP is the test run for a super-powerful radiowave-beaming technology that lifts areas of the ionosphere by focusing a beam and heating those areas. Electromagnetic waves then bounce back onto earth and penetrate everything -- living and dead.

HAARP publicity gives the impression that the High-frequency Active Auroral Research Program is mainly an academic project with the goal of changing the ionosphere to improve communications for our own good. However, other U.S. military documents put it more clearly -- HAARP aims to learn how to "exploit the ionosphere for Department of Defense purposes." Communicating with submarines is only one of those purposes.

Another site: www.spinspace.com...

According to the patent, Eastlund's invention would heat plumes of charged particles in the ionosphere, making it possible to, for starters, selectively "disrupt microwave transmissions of satellites" and "cause interference with or even total disruption of communications over a large portion of the earth." But like his hopped up ions, Eastlund was just warming up. Per the patent text, the physicist's "method and apparatus for altering a region in the earth's atmosphere" would also:

* "cause confusion of or interference with or even complete disruption of guidance systems employed by even the most sophisticated of airplanes and missiles";

* "not only... interfere with third-party communications, but [also] take advantage of one or more such beams to carry out a communications network at the same time. Put another way, what is used to disrupt another's communications can be employed by one knowledgeable of this invention as a communications network at the same time";

* "pick up communication signals of others for intelligence purposes";

* facilitate "missile or aircraft destruction, deflection, or confusion" by lifting large regions of the atmosphere "to an unexpectedly high altitude so that missiles encounter unexpected and unplanned drag forces with resultant destruction or deflection of same."

Now I don't know what to believe, but I would say that cooking our ionosphere regardless of how much electricity is used would be a terrible idea.

We don't really know how our atmosphere functions, despite what scientists would like everyone to believe.

We are breathing oxygen thanks to the help of our atmosphere.

Do we really need to go and mess the protective covering of our planet as we've already screwed up pretty bad down here?

Wait, maybe that's the whole idea...

It is HAARP that is causing a weak magnetosphere to filter less solar radiation. This explains the increasingly active Auroras in Iceland and other countries by the poles.

HAARP is cooking our oceans !!!!! Well, how else to the oil moguls search for their oil? How do they know where to drill? Well..... Take an MRI of the Earth!!! The result?? Hot oceans and when that cold air comes in, a hurricane is spawned.

This is precisely why HAARP was invented, it's sole purpose, goes beyond climate control, this goes beyond Aurora research, it's a Halliburton tool !

HAARP is killing us. Co2, and a hotter sun is probably disinfo. The solar flares have been searing our magnetosphere for billions of years, it's just that our force field is losing power now. Thanks to man.

I have been saving this thread for a long time now, and I finally was forced to write about it.

[edit on 6/11/2007 by StreetCorner Philosopher]

Originally posted by biggie smalls

Tom here is Begich's site www.haarp.net... although he does sound a bit crazy he probably isn't that far off on the effects.

I have a lot of issues with Begich, he's lying his ass off about a quarter of the time and the other half it's clear he doesn't understand what he's talking about. That leaves a gap in which the stuff he directly quotes off the govt's own websites actually comes through as true. But there's so much of it he is wrong about if you didn't know much about the project you couldn't separate the wheat from the chaff, and if you did, you wouldn't need to read Begich. Alas.

All through the thing he hypes stuff that's really pretty normal in terms of what happens in the ionosphere anyway.

HAARP Boils the Upper Atmosphere

HAARP will zap the upper atmosphere with a focused and steerable electromagnetic beam. It is an advanced model of an "ionospheric heater." (The ionosphere is the electrically-charged sphere surrounding Earth's upper atmosphere. It ranges between 40 to 60 miles above the surface of the Earth.)

Like this - "boil" is meaningless in terms of the ionosphere but Begich tosses it in to make you kneejerk, like "zap". There are a lot of other ionospheric heaters running as well which he doesn't whine about, among them you can include "the Sun".

Put simply, the apparatus for HAARP is a reversal of a radio telescope; antenna send out signals instead of receiving.

Except HAARP can also receive. It's just not a main function.

HAARP is the test run for a super-powerful radiowave-beaming technology that lifts areas of the ionosphere by focusing a beam and heating those areas. Electromagnetic waves then bounce back onto earth and penetrate everything -- living and dead.

"super powerful" is sort of questionable. HAARP can output about 3.6MW in its current trim, with an ERP somewhere around 1GW depending on what the DOD wants to say about that at the time. That's not a huge amount. There are other installations optimized for making plasma mirrors that do a much better job at "lifting areas of the ionosphere" but none of them match the Sun. The Sun moves the ionosphere around like mad between the night and day side of the Earth. Ever notice how far away you can receive AM radio signals at night? That's the ionosphere moving around due to solar radiation.

And I really love "Electromagnetic waves then bounce back onto earth and penetrate everything - living and dead." What is that supposed to mean? It's real dramatic, but stupidly pointless, and Begich uses this trick a LOT.

As an example , so does any local radio station. "Rush Limbaugh's voice as modulated onto WCOA flows across the Pensacola area...penetrating everything living...AND DEAD!!!" Well, that is, until the dead things are buried, because the ground makes for a fairly good reflector.

HAARP publicity gives the impression that the High-frequency Active Auroral Research Program is mainly an academic project with the goal of changing the ionosphere to improve communications for our own good. However, other U.S. military documents put it more clearly -- HAARP aims to learn how to "exploit the ionosphere for Department of Defense purposes." Communicating with submarines is only one of those purposes.

Well, sure. It's being used by both academia and DOD, and I don't think that was a secret. HAARP's own website talks about some of the stuff that doesn't matter anymore, like making ELF using the auroral electrojet.

According to the patent, Eastlund's invention would heat plumes of charged particles in the ionosphere, making it possible to, for starters, selectively "disrupt microwave transmissions of satellites" and "cause interference with or even total disruption of communications over a large portion of the earth."

Well, if you ignore the obvious that HAARP falls a few thousand percent short of having enough output to be Eastlund's device as described, yes, this is an obvious use. The high frequency communications used in satellite uplinks go through the ionosphere. So if you want to cut your enemy's satellite controls, you just excite the ionosphere so that it becomes opaque to the frequencies they use, which cuts the link.

With a lot of trickery you can make all sorts of interference with skywave propagation too. GWEN will still work though.

But like his hopped up ions, Eastlund was just warming up. Per the patent text, the physicist's "method and apparatus for altering a region in the earth's atmosphere" would also:

* "cause confusion of or interference with or even complete disruption of guidance systems employed by even the most sophisticated of airplanes and missiles";

Well, you can interfere with GPS/GLONASS for sure. Can't do a lot to inertial or star navigation. With Eastlund's full-bore apparatus you could maybe confuse the guidance package but HAARP ain't big enough.

* "not only... interfere with third-party communications, but [also] take advantage of one or more such beams to carry out a communications network at the same time. Put another way, what is used to disrupt another's communications can be employed by one knowledgeable of this invention as a communications network at the same time";

Well, yeah. That's sort of obvious. If I make the ionosphere reflective to some frequency band that it's normally transparent to, I can use it for a mirror to bounce comms over the horizon while blocking your use of it to communicate with your orbital assets. That came from the old sporadic E and signal ducting work.

* "pick up communication signals of others for intelligence purposes";

Maybe but that's real inefficient and it's obvious you're doing it.

* facilitate "missile or aircraft destruction, deflection, or confusion" by lifting large regions of the atmosphere "to an unexpectedly high altitude so that missiles encounter unexpected and unplanned drag forces with resultant destruction or deflection of same."

That takes a lot of power and HAARP can't do it. But yes, if you did have the power output, you could deorbit LEO assets unexpectedly by increasing drag. In order to use this as a tactical weapon, you'd need to have a network of stations though, HAARP doesn't have the reach. Maybe you could orbit satellites that could do the same thing.

Now I don't know what to believe, but I would say that cooking our ionosphere regardless of how much electricity is used would be a terrible idea.

It happens all the time. Not only does the Sun do it, but every gamma ray burster heats up the ionosphere, and so do cosmic rays, etc.

We don't really know how our atmosphere functions, despite what scientists would like everyone to believe.

We are breathing oxygen thanks to the help of our atmosphere.

Do we really need to go and mess the protective covering of our planet as we've already screwed up pretty bad down here?

Wait, maybe that's the whole idea...

So much of what Begich's "experts" say is poppycock. HAARP's output is a bazillionth of what the Sun pastes the ionosphere with.

I leave you with this - I'm sure you read on that same page some excerpts from "Dr Daniel Winter - physicist" who says a lot of crap about universal harmony, nature, etc. Begich quotes him a lot.

Daniel Winter received a Bachelor of Arts degree in psychology from the University of Detroit. He discontinued graduate school at the University of Detroit after less than one semester, has had no other graduate school training, and holds no graduate school or professional degrees from any college or university. Mr. Winter holds no technical or medical degrees or academic credentials. While residing in a farm house at Eden, New York, between 1986 and May 1995, he did business as Daniel Winter And Friends and as Crystal Hill Farm (as well as other names); thereafter, he moved to Waynesville, North Carolina, where he did business as Circle of Life Health Center, Crystal Hill Multi-Media, San Graal School, and San Graal Educational Foundation

www.danwinter.com...

Also, by admitting -- bragging -- that "my audiences are too stupid to know the difference," Mr. Winter is expressing contempt for his own audiences. This is not science. This is quackery. Mr. Winter has no credentials. He has no publications. He has no colleagues. His representations of accomplishments are false, and his reputation is that of a con artist. Mr. Winter's victims are his audience. That is why he has such contempt for his audience.

www.danwinter.com...

This is pretty much SOP for Begich's "experts".

Originally posted by StreetCorner Philosopher
It is HAARP that is causing a weak magnetosphere to filter less solar radiation. This explains the increasingly active Auroras in Iceland and other countries by the poles.

HAARP has no effect on the magnetosphere.

HAARP is cooking our oceans !!!!! Well, how else to the oil moguls search for their oil? How do they know where to drill? Well..... Take an MRI of the Earth!!! The result?? Hot oceans and when that cold air comes in, a hurricane is spawned.

No, it's not. 3.6MW isn't diddly in terms of power. How do they search for oil? They use explosive charges on the ocean bed and examine the sound reflections.

This is precisely why HAARP was invented, it's sole purpose, goes beyond climate control, this goes beyond Aurora research, it's a Halliburton tool !

No, it isn't.

HAARP is killing us. Co2, and a hotter sun is probably disinfo. The solar flares have been searing our magnetosphere for billions of years, it's just that our force field is losing power now. Thanks to man.

The magnetosphere has nothing to do with HAARP. HAARP is a HF transmitter, no different than any other big shortwave station, except the output is a phased array.

I have been saving this thread for a long time now, and I finally was forced to write about it.

[edit on 6/11/2007 by StreetCorner Philosopher]

It's sort of like saving a roast beef sandwich for years, you should have eaten it when it was fresh.

Tom, all you keep saying is why 3 Gigawatts isn't powerful enough. You say HAARP is not a Halliburton tool. "No is isn't" you say, but why isn't it?

You make me think your research is limited. You explosive charges are used to find oil. That is absurd. MRI's are taken of the crust, and if you have all the information, please explain how an oil reserve is located undergroud, or underwater! I have read some accounts of former HAARP employees, and they spilled some beans, but the extrapolated evidence leads to one thing, it's an MRI machine for our Earth.

The resonance surges put out by this thing get reflected Tom! Do you know why they get reflected? to build power. So if you can please dispute my claim with a little more than "No it isn't" I'm sure we would all be happy.

I don't eat beef. Soon you won't either.

Originally posted by StreetCorner Philosopher
Tom, all you keep saying is why 3 Gigawatts isn't powerful enough. You say HAARP is not a Halliburton tool. "No is isn't" you say, but why isn't it?

That's 3.6 megawatts, not gigawatts. But 3.6 GW wouldn't do it, either.

Why isn't HAARP a Halliburton tool? That's a weird question phrased that way. Why isn't it my tool? Why isn't it a tool of Litton Industries? Apple? Because it's not - it's sort of split up between ONR and AFRL, although a lot of researchers get time here and there on the array, some govt, some university, some contractors.

I don't know a "why" in terms of that question, it's like asking "Why don't I like peaches" - I just don't. There's no "why".

If you're asking "why can't 3.6MW heat up the oceans until they boil/cause hurricanes/make fish have three eyes", that is simple physics.

Let's look at a few numbers. Fresh water has a specific heat of 4.2kJ per kg per degree C at 20C. That means I have to put in about 4,200 Joules of energy to heat a kilogram of water one degree C.

Leaving out all the inefficiencies in getting the beam back down to the oceans, let's just assume that you can magically dump HAARP's entire output into a cubic kilometer of fresh water, with no path losses at all. The numbers are a little different for sea water but not much, and I know the fresh water numbers off the top of my head. Also there's some fiddly adjustments for density and temperature I'm not making because they don't affect the calculations enough to matter.

A cubic meter of water weighs 1000KG. A cubic kilometer of water weighs 1E12 KG.

So, how much does 3.6MW heat a cubic kilometer of water per year, if you leave out evaporation, radiation, convection and all the other ways that the heat will be escaping? In other words, if you took the cubic km of water and stuck it in a giant thermos bottle, and put the entire HAARP power supply into it - not the beam, because you're losing power that way. Let's cut to the chase and just run the diesels into it.

Well, a Joule is a Watt-second. So, we have 3,600,000 Watts times about 31,536,000 seconds in a year, for a grand total of about 1.14E14 Joules, if you ran at full output non-stop 365 days, 24 hours a day.

Punching through the equations, you will see a temperature rise of 0.027C.

And the ocean has 1.37 billion cubic kilometers of water.

Thus you see my statement: no, it can't.

You make me think your research is limited. You explosive charges are used to find oil. That is absurd.

Oh, contraire.

Seismic surveying involves sending sound waves underground and measuring how long it takes subsurface rocks to reflect them back to the surface. These waves are made by pounding the earth with a truck-mounted vibrator (12) or by exploding small charges on land or compressed air guns (13) at sea. As the waves are reflected back, they're collected by listening devices called geophones (14) and processed by computers. Earth scientists use the data to create three-dimensional models of underground rocks.

www.chevron.com...

My brothers spent a summer doodlebugging. You really don't seem to have a clue. Also, I won't go into "see if you can explain what an MRI is" because I know you don't understand that either.

MRI's are taken of the crust, and if you have all the information, please explain how an oil reserve is located undergroud, or underwater!

No, they're not, and I did. See above, there is a lot of data online that shows you how geoseismography works. You can also find sappers running tunnels that way.

I have read some accounts of former HAARP employees, and they spilled some beans, but the extrapolated evidence leads to one thing, it's an MRI machine for our Earth.

Um, no. MRI doesn't mean what you think it means, apparently.

The resonance surges put out by this thing get reflected Tom! Do you know why they get reflected? to build power. So if you can please dispute my claim with a little more than "No it isn't" I'm sure we would all be happy.

What do you call a "resonance surge"? It has the ring of a term you pulled out of your arse. I love the way people with 0.0 knowledge of comm theory make up stuff. Term definition, please. If you can. I know - Tesla probably used the term somehow and now the Teslaphiles use it without knowing what he meant, if he was right, which he wasn't always.

Here's a real one for you - path loss. It's the low Q part of your proposed resonator.

Oh, and if you're planning to pull up Begich's claim that Eastlund "based all his theories on TESLA!11!!", you really should know that I'll simply post the relevant part of Eastlund, which is that his only reference to it in the patent was an illustration on the cover of a magazine in the "prior art" section. The part where you dismiss similarities to your invention.

I don't eat beef. Soon you won't either.

Bees smell fear. The human head weighs approximately 8 pounds. I'm sure tofu goes bad too, substitute any sandwich filler you like.

[edit on 11-6-2007 by Tom Bedlam]

You admit there is a small change in the water's temperture even with your imaginary experiment with the cubic meter of water. Accumulation of these experiments in real life would cause a dramatic shift in temperature over a couple years.

You forget about the mirrors in space orbiting our planet which bounces the "resononace surges" back to earth back and forth like AC motors do. The IONIZED concentrated electrons get bounced back and forth, back and forth increasing intensity.

You say I don' t know how an Magnetic Resonance Image Tesla machine works. You are wrong, I delivered patients to those machines for 5 years as a paramedic and did lots of observing.

The analog system you explained with sonar and explosives was probably used in the 20's or 30's.

The CCD disorder of the bees can also affect Humans.

HAARP Boils the Upper Atmosphere

HAARP will zap the upper atmosphere with a focused and steerable electromagnetic beam. It is an advanced model of an "ionospheric heater." (The ionosphere is the electrically charged sphere surrounding Earth's upper atmosphere. It ranges between about 40 to 600 miles above Earth's surface.)

Hmm...

Put simply, the apparatus for HAARP is a reversal of a radio telescope: antennas send out signals instead of receiving. HAARP is the test run for a superpowerful radio-wave beaming technology that lifts areas of the ionosphere by focusing a beam and heating those areas. Electromagnetic waves then bounce back onto Earth and penetrate everything — living and dead. HAARP publicity gives the impression that the High-frequency Active Auroral Research Project is mainly an academic project with the goal of changing the ionosphere to improve communications for our own good. However, other U.S. military documents put it more clearly: HAARP aims to learn how to "exploit the ionosphere for Department of Defense purposes." Communicating with submarines is only one of those purposes.

Looks like Sonar is as analog as cassette tapes. Good try Tom.