What is the nature of time?

Hello all,

Another of my threads which concerned humans apparent ability to see the future has touched on a discussion of time. I wanted to explore this topic further and find out if there are any experts out there on this subject and what the latest theories are. Here is a thought that occurred to me recently:

"Dimensions" are just parameters we attach to something to define it's position or properties in the universe. Time is also frequently said to be a dimension, ie. a parameter, in this case the "when" or fourth dimension.

Is it true that an object can be said to have a time parameter or dimension specifying when it comes into existense and when it ceases to exist? If time is truly a dimension, just as positions on the xyz axes are, then it is not variable. So, in theory, one should be able to perceive an events xyz-t dimensions if one had the right equipment, just as we can map a position in 3 dimensions. My theory is that certain people are better readers of this parameter and thus appear to see the future, when in fact they just see an added aspect of all objects.

Thus, "time" is an illusion in the sense that we perceive it, ie as something "outside" of us. I think this avoids the paradox issue, since one can never change the past to alter the future in this scheme. Since the time dimension is an essential aspect of an object, one cannot travel through time. Time is not a river; it is a descriptor of an object and thus cannot be travelled through...

How does this jive with relativity?

Originally posted by j_kalin
Is it true that an object can be said to have a time parameter or dimension specifying when it comes into existense and when it ceases to exist?

Yes.

If time is truly a dimension, just as positions on the xyz axes are, then it is not variable. So, in theory, one should be able to perceive an events xyz-t dimensions if one had the right equipment, just as we can map a position in 3 dimensions.

There's a difference in perceiving and defining.

Now... when you start talking about dimensions, nothing beyond our three (plus time) have actually been proven. The others are mathematical models that exist in physics and other sciences. So... we haven't seen them or seen proof of them -- we have no way of detecting them.

My theory is that certain people are better readers of this parameter and thus appear to see the future, when in fact they just see an added aspect of all objects.

The one study is questionable in some respects. Other tests of this kind of perception have not showed anything significant.

Now... it could be that instead of being better at "seeing the future", they are better at pattern recognition of events and better at selecting likely outcomes.

This is a function of the frontal lobes and it's known that some people are better at this than others. In fact, at certain states of your life, you're better at predicting outcomes than at other times... this is why children can't seem to see even the very obvious consequences of actions.

Thus, "time" is an illusion in the sense that we perceive it, ie as something "outside" of us. I think this avoids the paradox issue, since one can never change the past to alter the future in this scheme. Since the time dimension is an essential aspect of an object, one cannot travel through time. Time is not a river; it is a descriptor of an object and thus cannot be travelled through...

It doesn't.

There's not one, but TWO different concepts of time and they are not researched in the same way. There's time as researched by psychologists and philosphers... and there's time as researched by mathemeticians and physicists. The two are VERY different and not reconcilable, since the first deals with how each individual perceives time and uses the concept and uses time (and includes things like time traveling through thought.)

Math, physics, relativity, deal with time as a mathematical concept. Math doesn't care what the state of the observer is.

Originally posted by j_kalin
I think this avoids the paradox issue, since one can never change the past to alter the future in this scheme. Since the time dimension is an essential aspect of an object, one cannot travel through time. Time is not a river; it is a descriptor of an object and thus cannot be travelled through...

Time can too be traveled but the past cannot change 'hence its called past' and the future can be altered by actions performed at the present moment, the past has effects on the future which will become the present at one point. People 'time travel' all the time, they just don't realize it. We have to change our concept of 'time travel', time is a destination but not a place.

just my two cents, but I need sleep so tomorrow I will wake up and read this and say "What does that mean?"

Hi, ya that makes some sense,"Time could be just a destination ,not a place"
I agree with that..How was Earth created again?Some cosmic high speed collision between 2 other planets or comets,forming Earth,the moon and Mars.Something along those lines anyway.Then the Earth has travelled around the Sun billions and billions of miles ,also causing the seasons like summer-Winter,Day-Night just a product of orbital motion around the Sun.There is no real time ,just pure motion and distance\destination.When something moves faster or slower It is Velocity but the objects still get to there destination what ever speed they travel.Time is then just a false measurement.If the Earth has travelled so far ,huge distance and then we are born. We live and we die in a tiny fraction of the overall distance the Earth has travelled so far.Time is an illusion in the mind there is no past present or future.We exist only for a blink of an eye. Then as we are dying our entire life will flash instantly in our mind.
.......Well it's just my theory,I could be way off wrong,have a good night.

Time is the state of matter at a given point in a waveform. Time is divided into past, present, and future. Past is detectable by an ability to record present into memory. Photographs and history books are examples of memory of given entities' states over defined points on a line. Future is the state matter that proceeds present, and has not occurred. Present is the state of matter that has not occurred in the past and will not occur in the future. The present is influenced by the past and the present influences the future, the future can only be predicted through finite measurement of a set of entities. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle states that it is impossible to predict the future state of matter, so the future has influence on the present. Present is the reaction between future and past, it is change.

Well that's one way to look at time but even if I agree that we are living in the present,I would still not believe in the past or future.I think we are always in the present.While I was reading the last post ,my Tea grew cold.Not because I am now in the future so my tea got old and cold but because the molecular motion slowed down due to the convection motion of heat transfer into the air.Nothing to do with time at all,pure motion and distance. I am still in the present and so is my Tea.Well just my theory,I could be wrong but I'm sticking with it.

Originally posted by mistr_b2
Well that's one way to look at time but even if I agree that we are living in the present,I would still not believe in the past or future.I think we are always in the present.While I was reading the last post ,my Tea grew cold.Not because I am now in the future so my tea got old and cold but because the molecular motion slowed down due to the convection motion of heat transfer into the air.Nothing to do with time at all,pure motion and distance. I am still in the present and so is my Tea.Well just my theory,I could be wrong but I'm sticking with it.

There are two different ways of approaching time: from the standpoint of physics (which gets into a lot of complicated math) and from the standpoint of experience (which is psychology and philosophy.)

Different cultures regard the past and present and future in different ways. For example, if we ask an American to "point towards the future" they point in front of them and if we ask them to "point towards the past" they point behind themselves... UNLESS they are a Hopi Indian and strongly connected with the reservation. Then the direction of "past" is in front of you (because you can see what happened in the past) and the direction of future is behind you (because you can't see what's coming.)

Psychologically, time can be very relative. Have you ever set though a church service or lecture that you thought would NEVER be over? And have you sat through a movie thinking that it went by so fast (or went to the beach or park or entertainment park and found that time just zipped by)?

Believe it or not, this is a very active study in psychology and philosophy and there's a lot of interest in how people percieve time.

In physics and math, however, time isn't ...quite what you perceive. It's a measurement (I can elaborate if you like.)

byrd
Math doesn't care what the state of the observer is.

You say math does not care about the state of the observer...
general relativity...Does that not take into account observation and the observer?
Thats why its relative, is it not?

Thinking about time gives me a headache - or is that booze?

Either way i'll keep this one short cos Terminator 1 is on telly

Originally posted by j_kalin
Thus, "time" is an illusion in the sense that we perceive it, ie as something "outside" of us. I think this avoids the paradox issue, since one can never change the past to alter the future in this scheme. Since the time dimension is an essential aspect of an object, one cannot travel through time. Time is not a river; it is a descriptor of an object and thus cannot be travelled through...

Yes I think time is an 'illusion', but I would like to find a better word other than illusion. We evolved to see it this way - if it aint broke don't fix it

The idea that gets my head spinning is the possability that everything has happened all at once.

Imagine the instant of creation (the big bang) and the instant of - well whatever the other end will be. Happened at exactly the same moment, thus EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN must also of occured in that same moment.

Everything that has been has been, everything that will be has /will be.

Far fetched right. Untill you can explain the nature of time to me you can't tell me i'm wrong

Any way I've got to spend some time with a classic film and cheap cider.

peace.

That is an amazing thought; however, it does follow that if time is not outside of us but rather just a property of an object that everything exists all at once. Then how is it that we perceive the passage of time? Do things cease to exist in an orderly fashion and appear to us simultaneously a nanosecond later? Seems too cumbersome. I think we must somehow poke our way through time, so it seems to pass us by....My head hurts too

Okay, points of view.

My computer is not aware. It crunches 1's and 0's very very well, and gives the impression IT knows what it's doing, the user (me) easily forgets the layer upon layer of development in programming and hardware that has taken it to this point. Lots of things have been tried - the things that worked stuck, the things that didn't, didn't. My computer, evolution in a teacup.

Now kicking it up several notches - Life.

Insects (I missed the lower life forms) follow mainly programming, are they aware of them selves, I think yeah to a small degree. But their understanding of time is limited to the programming, eat now, defend now, hide, dump curl up and die.

Now I go with rats (could of chosen fish or birds, don’t know much bout reptiles) but rats, programming is a large part of their behaviour. Do they know they exist? I've kept rats, let them breed. Put simply yes they are aware, they can have a sense of humour, show real communication with other species (ie me and the cat) show a real learning curve.

Now us - please, no one fall off this pedestal we seem to of put ourselves on! Although we don't always like to admit it we are a bunch of programming, with a spreading (albeit a good spreading) of self-awareness.

My rambling point is: can we even hope to understand time? Any more than an ant can hope to understand why we are having a Bar-Be-Que and dropping more food than he could ever eat around him?

From our point of view time exists as a marching clock - only going one way. Echoes of the past, we term as memories, our personal encounter with 'time'. I can move in any of the 3 dimensions of space, and then 'undo' that move by going the other direction. But really I can never undo it cos I may of gone back to the point I believe I started from, but time marched on around me.

We have evolved to the point where we almost don't need to point this out. But I still remind my niece to breathe when she's crying - and that’s basic programming!

If all of extastance is one glorious instant - we would not know any different, were built for understanding the world we live in every day, and a little bit of extra capacity for abstract thought. So live for the moment (excuse the tachyness).

One day we will laugh at our selves it the same way I laugh at the meandering relationship science and religion have had over recorded history.

Time does not exist, its just a tool for messuring distance. Think of this very common coment:

(Time does not exist in Space)

well do this experiment (Grab a buddy and put in in front of you, whats between the two f you?...

(SPACE)

Originally posted by pleyades

well do this experiment (Grab a buddy and put in in front of you, whats between the two f you?...

(SPACE)

But before you grabbed your buddy, he was minding his own business, right?

After you posted I posted right?

Mabe time has an equal right to exist as space does.

Mabe were just more used to understanding space than time, after all we have 3 ways of defining space - only one way of defining time (and even then we only 'travel' through time in one direction.

P.s. the time does not exist idea don't work with lectures when your late - tried many times as a student!

From our point of view time exists as a marching clock - only going one way. Echoes of the past, we term as memories, our personal encounter with 'time'. I can move in any of the 3 dimensions of space, and then 'undo' that move by going the other direction. But really I can never undo it cos I may of gone back to the point I believe I started from, but time marched on around me.

This is an iteresting point of view. No dimension really exists then since atoms and subatomic particles are buzzing around in space and in objects themselves and even when we think we move a foot to the right and then a foot back to the left, the point we are at after moving is no longer the same point we left from since all the subatomics have moved around. So there are no real "dimensions", they are all just ways of describing positions and objects so that our little minds don't go insane....?


[edit on 6-6-2007 by j_kalin]