The "mystery" of Great Zimbabwe

If you don't know what this is, check this out...

Great Zimbabwe

The "mystery" behind this site is a damn shame, if you ask me. Why? Because the mystery revolved around who built it. And this mystery is primarily from the location of this site; way down south in Africa.

There was much thought about who came all this way and built this ancient city; from Phoenicians to a "mysterious white race." The common theme in all this is that the obvious was obviously wrong: that native Africans had built these ruins.

Though most scholars today agree that Africans indeed built these ruins, there are people today who STILL don't think so. And of course, this is because Africans are innately incapable of anything that requires intelligence.

Damn. Is it THAT hard to believe that people of African descent can think? What's the purpose of perpetuating the racist doctrines of the European colonial era? Europeans went so far as to tell the Africans that NO ONE was there until Europeans came. This was not only in then Rhodesia, but in the school curriculum of South Africa as well.

The LIES that they've told about history is truly mind-boggling...:shk::shk:

If I recall correctly the great zimbabwe was built between the 17th and 18th centuries and at the time of its "discovery" in the middle 19th century, the local tribes in the area still built smaller zimbabwe's as a store house for grain. In fact the great zimbabwe is not a city or town at all but probably just a mega sized storage complex for the local ruling classes.

Of course I could be wrong on all these points but that is how I recall them.

[edit on 31-5-2007 by grover]

This line of post-colonial thought is not limited to Africa. Look at the Moundbuilding society of the Mississippean cultures. Though we can draw a line from Central America, up the Mississippi, and even into Southern Ontario, much of the 'historical' literature credited everyone from the Lost Tribes of Israel to some unknown white race. Anybody but the North American Indians, anybody but the Africans...because it is so much more comfortable to exploit a 'primitive' people.

Great find! I enjoy reading about these sites.

The place is now a designated World Heritage site:
whc.unesco.org...

And yes, Truthseeka, this colonial mindset is actually fairly prevalent. It even shows up here in the form of "the ancients weren't smart enough to build Stonehenge/Giza/whatever and so it was done by aliens/Atlanteans."

The "back to nature" movement also is a form of this, assuming some sort of natural "at one with the environment" primitive man. It dates back to the 17th century and Rousseau; the romantic notion that man in a primitive (pre "Adam's fall") state was somehow harmonious and ecologically sound and in tune with the believer's deity concept (instead of being a group of trash-tossing hunter-gatherers who were animists.)

What's sad to me is that so few people get to see the ruins because of the demon spawn Robert Mugabe! (But let's not go into politics now... )

But it mustn't be left out of the equation...
1. One of the reason why some people - archaeologists and historians - don't believe the ruins to have "African" origin, is because it's not typical "African". The African tribes from that era and area didn't build stone structures. The hunter tribes built wood and straw huts that didn't require much time and effort, because they were nomads. The farmer tribes built clay/mud huts. But there is no reason why any African tribe couldn't put two rocks on each other and realize that they could build a stone structure which would be stronger. (Tribal wars were common in those times.)
2. What little evidence exists suggests that Great Zimbabwe also became a centre for trading, with artefacts suggesting that the city formed part of a trade network extending as far as China. Chinese pottery shards, coins from Arabia, glass beads and other non-local items have been excavated at Zimbabwe. This would point to the European explorers and trading routes of that time.
3. There is a legend going round that the structures were built to replicate the palace of the Queen of Sheba in Jerusalem. Now the dating (of the site and the theoretical era of Sheba) indicates that this theory is a bit of a stretch.
4. There is reason to believe that Archaeologist withheld (and perhaps) destroyed some of the information that may give clues as to who exactly built the ruins. This is the part where politics comes into play, and also a very important note. According to Paul Sinclair, interviewed for None But Ourselves (1982):

I was the archaeologist stationed at Great Zimbabwe. I was told by the then-director of the Museums and Monuments organization to be extremely careful about talking to the press about the origins of the Zimbabwe state. I was told that the museum service was in a difficult situation, that the government was pressurizing them to withhold the correct information. Censorship of guidebooks, museum displays, school textbooks, radio programmes, newspapers and films was a daily occurrence. Once a member of the Museum Board of Trustees threatened me with losing my job if I said publicly that blacks had built Zimbabwe. He said it was okay to say the yellow people had built it, but I wasn't allowed to mention radio carbon dates... It was the first time since Germany in the thirties that archaeology has been so directly censored.

5. An even more important indication that it was probably built by native Africans is the Khame Ruins - also in the Zimbabwean country.

Khame (also written as Kame or Kami) was the capital of the Torwa State that emerged as a strong power in south-western Zimbabwe after the decline of Great Zimbabwe in the 15th Century. In the late 17th Century the site was burned and levelled by the Rozwi, who then took it over. In the 1830s Nguni speaking Ndebele raiders displaced them from Khame and many of the other sites they had established.

Source

There is no question that native Africans built Khame, and lived there. It strongly resembles the Great Zimbabwe ruins. (Some may suggest that the Rozwi "copied" the Great Zimbabwe ruins, as there are many architectural differences, but the decorations suggest the same cultural background.)
See also:
More Information
Pictures

I hope Zimbabwe's BS gets sorted out, because it's a tourist goldmine, but Mr Mugabe is keeping the rest of the world from seeing it's great historical and natural treasures.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
This line of post-colonial thought is not limited to Africa. Look at the Moundbuilding society of the Mississippean cultures. Though we can draw a line from Central America, up the Mississippi, and even into Southern Ontario, much of the 'historical' literature credited everyone from the Lost Tribes of Israel to some unknown white race. Anybody but the North American Indians, anybody but the Africans...because it is so much more comfortable to exploit a 'primitive' people.

True, Johnny.

It seems to me that there is a need to limit great achievements in human history to a select group of humans. Prime example: the people who say the Indo-Aryans are responsible for ALL great achievements in human history. It's an agenda, and it can be a dangerous one at that.

Originally posted by Byrd
Great find! I enjoy reading about these sites.

The place is now a designated World Heritage site:
whc.unesco.org...

And yes, Truthseeka, this colonial mindset is actually fairly prevalent. It even shows up here in the form of "the ancients weren't smart enough to build Stonehenge/Giza/whatever and so it was done by aliens/Atlanteans."

Thanks for that link, Byrd. And, you're right about "the ancients were stupid" argument. Funny how these same individuals would likely agree that modern humans emerged in Africa 100K years ago.

Uh, yo, what part of modern don't they understand? That would mean that ancient people were just as smart as modern people, wouldn't it?

I think it's the fact that many of these individuals are baffled as to how the ancients did this stuff in the absence of modern technology. In a sense, it makes the ancients "smarter" than us because they constructed monuments such as those you mentioned without machines.

Just my view on that, of course.

I saw the great wall when I was on "vacation" in Rhode back in 1976.

What a great country is was, even while at war.

Funny story, we captured five terrs in a protected animal area and they were skinny and hungry, we asked them why didn't they kill some of the animals in order to eat them, and their answer was "Is against the law".

This is a great 2 hour talk and this guy from South Africa has gone exploring and found many other such sites that shouldn't be there. and about how they emit radiation . Talks about Tesla and the Ubuntu movement. Interesting stuff, was posted on ATS recently I think.

truthseeka
If you don't know what this is, check this out...

Great Zimbabwe

The "mystery" behind this site is a damn shame, if you ask me. Why? Because the mystery revolved around who built it. And this mystery is primarily from the location of this site; way down south in Africa.

There was much thought about who came all this way and built this ancient city; from Phoenicians to a "mysterious white race." The common theme in all this is that the obvious was obviously wrong: that native Africans had built these ruins.

Though most scholars today agree that Africans indeed built these ruins, there are people today who STILL don't think so. And of course, this is because Africans are innately incapable of anything that requires intelligence.

Damn. Is it THAT hard to believe that people of African descent can think? What's the purpose of perpetuating the racist doctrines of the European colonial era? Europeans went so far as to tell the Africans that NO ONE was there until Europeans came. This was not only in then Rhodesia, but in the school curriculum of South Africa as well.

The LIES that they've told about history is truly mind-boggling...:shk::shk:

Considering that white south Africans were in the Transvaal and Highveld long before Black Africans, I take offense at this Black nationalist propaganda.

The great majority of Africa south of the Sahara is peopled by those who built little more than grass huts and no sea worthy boats.

But they think they have a right to the only functioning economy on the African Continent? An economy entirely built by WHITES? Is there any greater reason to ignore any possible accomplishments these blacks may have had, than the fact they currently accomplish nothing?

I'm not even racist but I have enough intellectual honesty to admit the truth.

And before you get me started on just how much the blacks in South Africa have destroyed the South African Economy with such nepotistic economic disasters as "BEE" and their form of "affirmative action" you should do a little research as to the ANC and the other leaders of the South African black movement.

To top it all off, the Zimbabwe government is a MASSIVE failure. So if we're going to attribute it to race, the blacks own THAT one 100%.

Let me be clear, I don't think the ruins in former Rhodesia are NOT black african in origin, what I'm talking about is the idea that somehow it matters.

It's like some big fat lazy jerk who eats all the food out of your refrigerator while not working, doing nothing saying "I used to be a Football star once".

Great, well now all you are is a fat loser.

I also don't take kindly to a victim mentality. Black Africans haven't been under the control of anyone but Black Africans in some places of the Continent for 70 years or more. And in most places, at least for the last 50 years.

It's time they own up to their own incompetence and get over these dumb ideas of racism.

JohnnyCanuck
This line of post-colonial thought is not limited to Africa. Look at the Moundbuilding society of the Mississippean cultures. Though we can draw a line from Central America, up the Mississippi, and even into Southern Ontario, much of the 'historical' literature credited everyone from the Lost Tribes of Israel to some unknown white race. Anybody but the North American Indians, anybody but the Africans...because it is so much more comfortable to exploit a 'primitive' people.

Ah to be so lucky just to be made slaves and still have life and culture. The native American tribes were slaughtered, annihilated, all their land stolen their culture wiped away, many tribes driven into extinction.

Yea, maybe you don't have it so bad after all.

The Bot

dlbott

JohnnyCanuck
This line of post-colonial thought is not limited to Africa. Look at the Moundbuilding society of the Mississippean cultures. Though we can draw a line from Central America, up the Mississippi, and even into Southern Ontario, much of the 'historical' literature credited everyone from the Lost Tribes of Israel to some unknown white race. Anybody but the North American Indians, anybody but the Africans...because it is so much more comfortable to exploit a 'primitive' people.

Ah to be so lucky just to be made slaves and still have life and culture. The native American tribes were slaughtered, annihilated, all their land stolen their culture wiped away, many tribes driven into extinction.

Yea, maybe you don't have it so bad after all.

The Bot

Think of it as Eminent Domain, their land was taken away to be used by a more productive people. Right or wrong, it is true.

FreeMason

dlbott

JohnnyCanuck
This line of post-colonial thought is not limited to Africa. Look at the Moundbuilding society of the Mississippean cultures. Though we can draw a line from Central America, up the Mississippi, and even into Southern Ontario, much of the 'historical' literature credited everyone from the Lost Tribes of Israel to some unknown white race. Anybody but the North American Indians, anybody but the Africans...because it is so much more comfortable to exploit a 'primitive' people.

Ah to be so lucky just to be made slaves and still have life and culture. The native American tribes were slaughtered, annihilated, all their land stolen their culture wiped away, many tribes driven into extinction.

Yea, maybe you don't have it so bad after all.

The Bot

Think of it as Eminent Domain, their land was taken away to be used by a more productive people. Right or wrong, it is true.

Ah yes, so much more productive what you have done with the land you stole. Great job raping mother earth. Eminence domain, keep speaking lies like that, karma, she is a cruel mistress my friend, you shall see.

The Bot

dlbott

FreeMason

dlbott

JohnnyCanuck
This line of post-colonial thought is not limited to Africa. Look at the Moundbuilding society of the Mississippean cultures. Though we can draw a line from Central America, up the Mississippi, and even into Southern Ontario, much of the 'historical' literature credited everyone from the Lost Tribes of Israel to some unknown white race. Anybody but the North American Indians, anybody but the Africans...because it is so much more comfortable to exploit a 'primitive' people.

Ah to be so lucky just to be made slaves and still have life and culture. The native American tribes were slaughtered, annihilated, all their land stolen their culture wiped away, many tribes driven into extinction.

Yea, maybe you don't have it so bad after all.

The Bot

Think of it as Eminent Domain, their land was taken away to be used by a more productive people. Right or wrong, it is true.

Ah yes, so much more productive what you have done with the land you stole. Great job raping mother earth. Eminence domain, keep speaking lies like that, karma, she is a cruel mistress my friend, you shall see.

The Bot

We have been more productive you can't seriously argue otherwise.

Please try to keep the discussion to archaeological or historical discussions.
Please.
Not a racist argument.
We have had enough of it.

reply to post by FreeMason


"the only functioning economy on the African Continent? "

That line alone shows how ignorant you are My friend, we are no longer in 1960 and South Africa is far from being a country with an organized Economy.

There are other countries doing much better than South Africa, just because media covers it more often doesn't mean it better.

Do your research before uttering nonsense like this mr KKK, your are an embarrassment to your family.

Not to say that the civilization was built by anyone but the indigenous people, as that is always the best base approach to this kind of research; until there is solid evidence proving otherwise. But there is a minority opinion that the Lebra people might have been responsible for the construction.

Based on genetic studies, the Lebra people are descendents of Semitic traders. It is conjecture that they were traders as there is only a linkage to these people and Semitic peoples through male, not female lineages. They just as easily could have been exiles- missionaries - slaves- who the heck knows.

Great Zimbabwe would have represented a great power in that region (circa 1100 ad to as late as 1400 ad). The conjecture that the Lembra people built it is weaker then the idea that an Indigenous people built it and that these lineages represented either traders or slaves.

reply to post by FreeMason

Considering that white south Africans were in the Transvaal and Highveld long before Black Africans, I take offense at this Black nationalist propaganda.

The great majority of Africa south of the Sahara is peopled by those who built little more than grass huts and no sea worthy boats.

But they think they have a right to the only functioning economy on the African Continent? An economy entirely built by WHITES? Is there any greater reason to ignore any possible accomplishments these blacks may have had, than the fact they currently accomplish nothing?

I'm not even racist but I have enough intellectual honesty to admit the truth.

And before you get me started on just how much the blacks in South Africa have destroyed the South African Economy with such nepotistic economic disasters as "BEE" and their form of "affirmative action" you should do a little research as to the ANC and the other leaders of the South African black movement.

To top it all off, the Zimbabwe government is a MASSIVE failure. So if we're going to attribute it to race, the blacks own THAT one 100%.

Geez I don't even know where to start...Ok what do a set of ancient African ruins have to do with modern geo-politic??,Whites came into the transvaal before Africans???..excuse you!!!... have you never heard of Mapungubwe ??

HISTORY OF MAPUNGUBWE

The archaeological site of Mapungubwe spans the present borders of Botswana, Zimbabwe and South Africa and lies at the confluence of the Limpopo and Shashe Rivers in South Africa. Over a thousand years ago it represented one of the most powerful African Iron Age states or kingdoms, renowned for its power and trade that dominated southern Africa. The Museum’s metal artefacts represent an all time pinnacle of achievement in the field of indigenous metallurgy, thus contributing a meaningful chapter to much of southern Africa’s unknown prehistory. The ancient site was made famous by the discovery of gold fragments on Mapungubwe Hill in 1933 and major archaeological research has been carried out by the University of Pretoria over the past seventy-five years. Early in 1995 SANParks recognised Mapungubwe’s significance in terms of its biodiversity by proclaiming the area as a National Park (Vhembe Dongola National Park), and later in 2003 it was declared by UNESCO as World Heritage Site. Landscape’ has been identified as having outstanding universal value, with cultural and/or natural significance which is so exceptional as to transcend national boundaries and be of common importance for the present and future generations of all humanity. The cross-border areas have furthermore been designated as the Mapungubwe Transfrontier Conservation Area by the Peace Parks Foundation as more than seventy years have passed since Mapungubwe was brought to the attention of the public by the University of Pretoria. As custodians of its heritage the Mapungubwe Museum will make significant future contributions by conserving the archaeological past for future generations.

web.up.ac.za...
As for other parts of ancient Africa with or without adobe structure go here.
Lost Cities And Architecture Of Pre-Colonial Africa.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
And here
The Great Lakes And The Kongo Links To Nile Valley Civilizations.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
The 600 year old coin that proves China was trading with East Africa BEFORE Europeans arrived
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now I am not about to throw around the term racist lightly for I don't know you like that.. nor even your back ground as to how you self I'D but judge from your writings above you are woefully uninformed, as to modern development in some modern African countries South Africa do not have a monopoly.. go here
African Skylines..The Other Africa
www.abovetopsecret.com...
You stated might makes right in terms of imminent domain..so I guess Mugabe is on the money in ejecting White farmers off lands that they took from the locals,and that blacks in South Africa should follow suit?? Zimbabwe's economic troubles is linked to the freezing of assets because of land grabs from Whites and pissing off Britain. .AKA modern Geo politics..I challenge you to follow those links provided and live up to the motto of this board and DENY IGNORANCE..thank you.