21 Days to Open the Gates of Hell

Iraq and India are Babylon and they want nothing but to destroy Israel and they will win, they will destroy Israel and stomp all over them, and be evil and all sorts of evil will prevail there, the people of God will suffer death soon, by the hands of satan himself and all good will die, then shall the heavens shake and fire run upon those who are left and onto their children which has to suffer by their parents actions.. and yet evil will still abound upon the earth.

Originally posted by UM_Gazz

Originally posted by jprophet420
i can honestly say i bitterly hate anyone who was ever optimistic about a war.

I would say to you that hate aimed at the optimistic would be wrong, especially those who were led to believe the grave danger that Iraq presented to the world just before the invasion.

Of course now that it is widely accepted that the grave danger (WMDs) consisted of bogus intelligence. But there was a time when many of us living in the more early post 9/11 times were all for removing potential threats, a climate of fear can make support for such an invasion much easier to obtain.

You hit the nail on the head there. Led to believe.

Theres a whole lot of people who "led", and none of them have been held accountable for their actions yet.

When, in the UK, Blair released his "dossier" on Iraq, and the infamous 45 minute claim was made it rang alarm bells in my head, because the Prime Minister of the UK stood up and said that within 45 minutes Saddam Hussein could threaten British people and British interests.

What he conviniently forgot to mention was that his 45 minute claim referred to Iraq possibly being able to deply Scud type missiles with the range to hit an RAF base in Cyprus if they had continued to develop rocket technology or had somehow managed to get new rockets from the North Koreans despite the continued and increased UN sanctions since 1991 and the monitoring of the country.

Of course, people made the link - UK, Iraq, WMD, 45 minutes. Thats where the initial support in the war came from in the UK. It relied on a man who alot of people took very very seriously missing out a few facts in a TV soundbyte.

In the US the con-job was undertaken using parrot technique and association by decree. Very clever. War on Terror, Saddam Husseein, 9/11, Al -Queada, Iraq, War on Terror 9/11.

What we saw - and judging by what I see and read - an awful lot of people fell for and still continue to fall for is cleverly calculated propaganda that is far, far too easy to broadcast unquestioned these days - Fox with their snow job over Ron Paul is a typical example.

Subverting the way people think and see the world is easier when it comes to the MTV generation.

Alot of people are not - sadly - media smart. Most people don't understand the techniques used in propaganda, and as such they don't question what they see and hear. Most people don't look into things or (dare I say it) aren't educated enough or care enough about whats going on around them to understand it all.

Thats why we still get rabid posters coming on saying places should be "glasssified" and that whole swathes of people should be wiped out because of their religion.

Thats why theres a "war on drugs" and a "war on terror". A war on ignorance might prove to be inconvinient and counterproductive to those people who want to run the show.

Originally posted by nowshining
Iraq and India are Babylon and they want nothing but to destroy Israel and they will win, they will destroy Israel and stomp all over them, and be evil and all sorts of evil will prevail there, the people of God will suffer death soon, by the hands of satan himself and all good will die, then shall the heavens shake and fire run upon those who are left and onto their children which has to suffer by their parents actions..

and yet evil will still abound upon the earth.

"Iraq and India are Babylon" ..... sorry but I don't agree. Not to get biblical here (but that is the way its headed) Russia is the one to keep your eye on and the Iranians. Most likely scenario I have read is that as Russia attacks Israel they are distracted by news of a great force to the west and in a moment of madness release their nuclear arsenal on the United States thus taking us out and opening the way for Europe to lead the world ...

Whatever is happening you can almost feel it and people seem unaware or unable to stop it ... there's more at work here than meets the eye. Call it conspiracy or what you like to much strangeness in this world to be a coincidence.

Here it is just came out this morning:

Russia may redeploy missiles in Europe, Putin warns

ROME (Thomson Financial) - Russian President Vladimir Putin has again blasted a planned US missile shield in Europe and warned that Moscow could redeploy missiles aimed at targets on the continent.

'If the US nuclear potential extends across the European territory, we will have to get new targets in Europe,' Putin said in an interview to newspapers from the Group of Eight most industrialised nations.

www.forbes.com...

Mod Edit: Formatted to fit these requirements: "If you feel inclined to make the board aware of news, current events, or important information from other sites that supports the thread; please post one or two paragraphs, a link to the entire story, AND your opinion, twist or take on the news item as it relates to the thread."

[edit on 3-6-2007 by UM_Gazz]

Thx .... I don't post often

As I said watch the Russians

Now hear this.

The US is not leaving Iraq. They never intended to. The US military footprint is being moved south and east from Europe. Permanent bases have been built in Iraq.

www.lewrockwell.com...

The first thing they got signed determined that oil would be trade in US$ and not Euros. They are still (afaik) trying to get signed a Statement of Forces but no-one has signed it yet.

Aside from Pakistan and Afghanistan, the US has been busy funding the color revolutions and campaigns in the former USSR states beginning with Uzbekistan and moving onto some of the other countries which were initially pro US but wised up a little when they realised what was happening around them. US funding "soft power" regime changes.

www.cfr.org...

The Russians, Chinese, South Americans, Iran and various Caspian states also realise what is happening and their counter to all this is the Shanghai Co-operation Organisation.

Meanwhile, Russian missile technology has found it's way into China and Iran and even India by various means with variants of the Sunburn SSN-22 and Onyx SSN-25 and you can bet they've been startegically deployed.

You see, after the Soviet collapse their military doctrine changed from one of superior firepower at all costs to one of doing what is necessary and effective.

When you look at the geography of Iran and the Gulf and the Straight of Hormuz, you'll very quickly see that any US fleet is very vulnerable to missile attack from Iran. That's why they need the bases.

Now look to the other side of Iraq and think about what Syria has in terms of airpower. They have some very high tech Russian aircraft from which these lethal missiles can be launched.

A little closer to home, Venezuela recently purchased some 50 or so Migs but had no experience in flying them. So Russia says, ummmm....the Cubans know how to fly them.....they could show you. Then the Cubans said......yeah but ours aren't as new as these ones. Ok says Russia.....here's a few for training purposes. So you have Venezuelan and Cuban pilots flying newish Russian Migs out of Cuba. Strap on a few SSN-22 and SSN-25 missiles and things get a little sticky.

That's not to say the US can't move militarily, just that these pieces are in place so that if they do - it's gonna hurt.....BAD.

Back to the topic, the US is now in direct official talks with Iran for the first time since the revolution. If they move militarily, the first thing to be shut down is the Straight of Hormuz. Then the only way the oil can go is North and East.

Don't forget the economic predicament either - 80% of US debt is now owned by foreigners - a large chunk of which is owned by China.

Basically I think the US is cornered in Iraq, but if the SCO has any sense they will leave the US an open door for a dignified exit. After all, a Chinese general once said (Sun Tzu) that you should leave an escape route for your enemy lest he decide there is nothing else to be done but die fighting.

Let's take a step back and look at the simple facts.

Radical Islam will be with us until the End of Days. Even the most antiwar among us understand that this misguided religion, representing over 200 million militants around the globe, intends to dominate the world.

In every country where they will be successful - and ultimately there will be many which fall under their authority - none of us, whether liberal or conservative, will have the freedom to express our opinions as we are doing here on this bulletin board.

I don't like the war either, but I see no alternative without disastrous consequences.

I've read some of the more spiritual members of the forums here post a likeness of Iraq's present state with hell, a pit, the bottomless pit in Revelation, and the lake of fire and brimstone in Revelation.

I can only agree that it has been prophecized. Even if not in Revelation, read the book of the visions of Nahum, its Old Testament. He clearly speaks of Nineveh being torn into 3..

Nineveh in the ancient day was a vibrant city in now Northcentral Iraq, and theres a Nineveh province named after it.

I hate to "get religous" but .. the OP's talk of gates of hell and such struck a cord in me that resonates along these lines..

And also, anyone else ever wonder why the U.S. troop prescence in Iraq, until recently, was consistently kept at 144,000, the same exact number in Revelation of the number of males from the 12 tribes of Israel that would be "taken up to be with God", one of many different vague passages people get the "rapture" idea from. Anyways, its all very interesting to say the least, and also horrifying..

Does anyone else ever feel like living in this day and age is like having a ringside seat to the End of Days, the Apocalypse, a Nuclear Holocaust, perhaps a Meteor strike, or a Polar Shift, or even a Mega Volcanic eruption.. or any number of things.. like to be on this planet now is to be here to experience the end.

Originally posted by TMR-1
Let's take a step back and look at the simple facts.

Radical Islam will be with us until the End of Days. Even the most antiwar among us understand that this misguided religion, representing over 200 million militants around the globe, intends to dominate the world.

True that.

And also, Russia is fueling this beast, this beast of radical islam. They are supplying Iran and Syria with the arms and air defense systems to make them capable of inflicting heavy losses against any air attack from U.S. or Israeli warplanes. They've been doing this since the 60s and 70s, back then they were hooking up Egypt to fight Israel too.

Russia and Iran have an extremely long history, it goes waayyyy back, and believe it or not, their peoples are ethnically related, both being former Steppe horsemen and nomadic tribes of Indo-Iranian origin, like the Scythians, Sarmatians, Saka, etc. They've been trading partners for ages. They share a waterway that no one else has access to -- the Caspian Sea. only Russian and Iranian vessels exist in this Sea.. oh yes, and the odd Azerbaijani vessel, and there is full trade going on there. Russia would side with Iran to the point of threatening the United States with a nuclear missile attack if the U.S. went full-out offensive on Iran, I bet you they would.

Putin is just sitting back and waiting for the best time to play his cards, which are an extraordinarily strong hand, which is why he's holding and waiting, if this were a poker game. And with the new launch of the missiles which can supposedly best the latest U.S. anti-missile technology.. he's making a point there. If there was true peace between these, Russia wouldnt feel threatened from the missile defense shield, afterall, its DEFENSE only. Sure, it could be used to keep forces under, free from missile strikes, to launch attacks on Russia from, but that would be an incredibly stupid and foolish thing to do, and who might I add would be amassing enough forces in Eastern Europe to invade Russia of all places? That's a laugh if i've ever had one.

Russia is in on the Islamic conquest ... dont be fooled.

[edit on 6/3/2007 by runetang]

Runtang I do not believe in the end of day’s theory because even if a higher being created humans, they were given freedom of will to do with the world and their fellow humans as they saw it fit.

The problems plaguing the world and the mess in the middle east is due to oil, greed power and the control of the last oil reserves so that it will only falls into the hand of a few.

Iraq is the beginning of an agenda, Sudan and the dafur is an ongoing agenda, and Iran is another agenda.

What all this places has in common ? the have oil. However, the oil cannot be allowed to fall into the hands of countries like China.

Look what our nations’ politicians has done so far in their greedy pursue of agendas, the death of hundreds of thousands of people that they claim has die at the hands of “others” because the fight on terror.

The fight is on oil and for oil.

Our nation has not intentions of ever leaving Iraq, look at the fortress that the present administration is building.

It is only with one purpose in mind, to keep whatever is going to be inside very safe and secure.

This fortress in Iraq has not been build for the American people, neither for the Iraqi people, it has been built so corporate oil barons and their cronies may have a safe haven while conducting their business deals, meanwhile the people outside this fortress will continue to die.

This is no the hands of any god or end of time, this is happening at the hands of humans, greedy, dirty and powerful.

Originally posted by nowshining
Iraq and India are Babylon and they want nothing but to destroy Israel and they will win, they will destroy Israel and stomp all over them, and be evil and all sorts of evil will prevail there, the people of God will suffer death soon, by the hands of satan himself and all good will die, then shall the heavens shake and fire run upon those who are left and onto their children which has to suffer by their parents actions..

and yet evil will still abound upon the earth.

I dunno where you got this one from, but if this is your interpretation of Revelation, i suggest you reread. At the end, there wont be evil left on the earth, there wont be an earth. the earth becomes dead and theres a new one, or something along those lines. Iraq is where ancient Babylon was correct, but India, what do they got to do with this? They are suffering islamic radicals attacks just like the other nations.. so they arent Babylon. That dont make sense.

I always said, biblical Babylon is either New York City / Washington DC in the U.S.A, or Baghdad, Iraq and its surrounding areas. Iran could be in on that Babylon action too, lol.

The thing that doesnt jive with Iraq being Babylon is that it states Babylon will be the world center of political power. Whoever owns Babylon commandeth all the nations of the world, it says. Certainly Iraq didn't have any grip on world power. Currently Iraq is a world blunder and perhaps a good portion of western nations have had a hand in that coalition of the willing, and its commanding the world's attention. Thats the only way it could be the center of world politics.. if they meant, the central ISSUE of world politics. But the book sounds pretty clear in that Babylon would command the world, like the U.N. building is in New York City. Thats what I used to think was Babylon.. i dont know anymore.

Originally posted by marg6043

This fortress in Iraq has not been build for the American people, neither for the Iraqi people, it has been built so corporate oil barons and their cronies may have a safe haven while conducting their business deals, meanwhile the people outside this fortress will continue to die.

why marg you just made me figure out what i was just mulling over. i know that wasnt your intention, but look at what we have here. this is divine providence if i have ever seen it.

im typing up a post about babylon = iraq not making a lot of sense because babylon is where the center of the worlds politics and business will be happening, and iraq isn't it.

but what you just said made my mind click on like a light bulb.

Iraq will become babylon, after the insurgency becomes more pacified maybe, and this fortress of an embassy will be used to divy out all the oil and the profits from it to all the countries that joined the Coalition i bet.

Iraq was not Babylon until WE showed up. Wow..

Originally posted by runetang

Iraq was not Babylon until WE showed up. Wow..

In a way I will agree with you, not that I believe in the end of times but you are right, the plans are to make Iraq the metropolis from all the oil business will be conducted.

I was against this War for oil and geopolitical positioning from the very moment Bush and his NeoCon mafia and Blair the egotistical poodle began to talk the war talk about Iraq.

There are those out there who awoke to the reality of how this whole enterprise of slaughter based on lies for the pursuit of oil and geopolitical positioning only after the war had been raging for some time.

To you, I say, better late than never that you are now aware to what this War is all about.

Geopolitical positioning: Iraq, together with Afghanistan, borders either side of Iran. Afghanistan itself, borders Russia.

Iran and Russia now have US Military forces on their doorstep.

Oil: The NeoCons had tried to do a deal with the Taliban to put a gas pipeline before 2001, but those Taliban, they were tricky to do business with.

Better to invade Afghanistan for that gas pipeline instead.

But what about the other form of energy, oil?

Where else than Iraq, one of the biggest oil producers, easy to take out, or so they thought.

Somebody said that the fact Russia and China are getting oil deals prove Iraq was not a war for oil.

Of course Russia and China are going to get oil deals in Iraq. The US probably encouraged Iraq's 'government' to do so, in order to placate Russia and China that they can have a slice of the oil cake, and to get them on side for UN sanctions on Iran.

I'll come to Iran in just a moment.


Iraq most likely now, as the US influence on the 'government' there decreases, will become like Iran, an Islamic Republic.

The Sunnis and the Al Qaeda inspired will wage an insurgency against this, supported by the Saudis.

The Kurds will either get autonomy, or will be crushed by the combined might of Syria, Turkey, Iran and Iraq's Shia Army.

This is if Iraq survives this intact, and does not break up into little fiefdoms, Shiastan, Sunnistan, Kurdistan.

Iraq could be the fighting ground for Middle Eastern countries seeking ages old ethnic and religious hatred.


The huge US Embassy being built in Iran is telling.

It reminds me very much of British forts in the furthest reaches of India during The British Empire.

Forts that tried to show an imperial presence, in a land that could not be quelled, and could do nothing but have a presence of that being under seige, rather than being the ruler.

Iraq the land is not conquered. Iraqis, Sunni or Shia and volunteers from neighbouring countries, will continue to kill the occupation forces.

There are many resistance movements, many militias all who bay for the blood of those who occupy their motherland.

And would you not do also, if your country was invaded, brutalised and occupied for it's resources?

The OP referred to 'The Gates of Hell' being opened.

I remember, in late 2002, or early 2003, the head of The Arab League saying that a war on Iraq would "Open the gates of hell, unleashing evil." others used the words "Opening Pandora's box"

And so we have seen.

And look at the recent attempted London and Glasgow bombings. If we put aside the possibility of an Al-CIAda operation, a former friend of Iraqi Bilal Abdulla, one of those accused of involvement in the attacks, said Bilal Abdulla became militant after seeing the destruction in Iraq and the death of a friend in Iraq.

But I dare say, as horrible an abbatoir slaughterhouse Iraq is, if Iran is attacked by the US or Israel, or both, the darkness truly will descend.

Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, who holds great influence over the Iraqi Shias, who urges Shias not to respond to attacks by Sunni extremists, who urged Shia women to vote in Iraqi elections, who for all of Shia Cleric Moqtada al-Sadr's vitrolic is the one Shia leader all Iraqis are influenced by due to he being a Grand Ayatollah, has reportedly said that if Iran is attacked by the US or Israel, it is the duty of every Shia in Iraq to kill US Soldiers.

Just imagine that.

At the moment, the Iraqi insurgency is being fought by Sunnis and a percentage of Shias.

Imagine the insurgency with every Shia in Iraq duty bound by religious order to kill US Soldiers.

And that is just the beginning of the repurcussions of an attack on Iran.









[edit on 4-7-2007 by Regensturm]

[edit on 4-7-2007 by Regensturm]

Unfortunately, we won't know the real reason why we're occupying Iraq until the real reason arises. From a Machavellian standpoint, everything is going as planned:
Ideology that conflicts with Western views is being eliminated through a controlled--though it looks chaotic-- civil war. Harsh as it may sound.

Throughout history, other lands have been used as battlegrounds between opposing foes. Rumsfeld himself said the reason we're in Iraq was to fight the terrorists on soil other than our own.

At this posting, the largest American embassy on the face of the earth is being built in Baghdad. We're not going anywhere until Iraq is completely secularized and Wal-mart is a household name. IMO, the real reason(s) we are in Iraq is good old Western expansion and Iraq makes a fine beach head....and don't forget Israel, by the looks of things, she needs us a bit closer than just a couple carrier groups and Med. air bases.

Originally posted by nightbreid
Unfortunately, we won't know the real reason why we're occupying Iraq until the real reason arises. From a Machavellian standpoint, everything is going as planned:
Ideology that conflicts with Western views is being eliminated through a controlled--though it looks chaotic-- civil war. Harsh as it may sound.

The reason why Iraq was invaded is quite clear to me as I have stated.

As for an Ideology that conflicts with western views being eliminated, I would say firstly, 'western views' should not be the description of the twisted thought processes of the NeoCons and their lackeys.

Secondly, and most importantly, ideologies that conflict with the NeoCon's view of how the world should be dominated is not being eliminated, it is being strengthened all the time by the war in Iraq and other factors.

The war in Iraq is a recruiting sergeant, a subject to point at and say to Muslims "Look how they try to subjugate the Muslim! Look!"

Iraqis who resent that their country is being occupied and who equally despised Saddam are being joined by Saddam supporters, Sunni nationalists, Shia nationalists, Shia Islamists and Al Qaeda inspired militants in this insurgency.

Muslims, Shia or Sunni, Iraqi or not are fighting in Iraq because they believe their country or religion is being attacked by the US and it's supporters.

Hundreds, thousands of them, perhaps tens of thousands, and more people will be recruited, from those who have fled Iraq seeing their friends killed, to people in all the continents, who see a Muslim country occupied and Muslim people killed.

It will get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.

They see the implementation of Israel as the first step in the war upon them. Then the UN reacting too slowly to the massacre of Muslims in The Balkans. Kashmir, Afghanistan 2001 onwards, Iraq, the bullying of Iran, and Islamists become militants because they see all this and think

"These are all Muslim people the US picks on or stands by and does nothing when they are slaughtered."

Originally posted by nightbreid
Throughout history, other lands have been used as battlegrounds between opposing foes. Rumsfeld himself said the reason we're in Iraq was to fight the terrorists on soil other than our own.

There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq before the invasion. There is now. The US created this war and made it what it was.

The arguement that "If the US leaves Iraq, the US will be open to attack" is flawed. The US is open to attack now, invading and occupying a country for it's oil, and it's other foreign policies.

The question is, do the American people want their soldiers to continue to die for oil, or at home defending their nation?

Originally posted by nightbreid
At this posting, the largest American embassy on the face of the earth is being built in Baghdad. We're not going anywhere until Iraq is completely secularized and Wal-mart is a household name. IMO, the real reason(s) we are in Iraq is good old Western expansion and Iraq makes a fine beach head....

The NeoCons are dreaming if they think that plan is going to be successful.

Iraqis and their Muslim brethren fighting the insurgency will not rest until the last enclave of America has been removed from Iraq.

Originally posted by nightbreid
and don't forget Israel, by the looks of things, she needs us a bit closer than just a couple carrier groups and Med. air bases.

I feel Israel are going to suffer for their actions over these past 60 years if they are not careful, and if they are not clever.

Honestly during the first Iraqi war I was irritated that Bush Sr. didn't walk in to Bagdad and step on Saddam's neck. Now I see the how much smarter Sr. was than not just his son but a lot of People. He saw how idiotic the people in Iraq are. Common sense would tell you that if you just pretend that you are ok with everything, then the US will rebuild your country free of charge, make it look all nice and much, much more modern than you had and leave. Sr. knew that these people would rather bicker and die than just do it the easy way. They don't understand the past. If they had the sense god gave a Jack$$$ they would let us rebuild their country then they could eventually economically dominate us like the Japanese currently do.

[edit on 7-8-2007 by Royal76]

Originally posted by Royal76
He saw how idiotic the people in Iraq are.
[edit on 7-8-2007 by Royal76]

These people are no more idiotic as everyone else who's country is invaded. What would be their price to pay for letting the US rebuild their country? Sure they have other feelings and culture than you, that we may not understand or dont want tolerate. But before the US invaded this country, who was caring what was going on in this country?

What really makes me angry is that this Bush action put the world in a immensely more dangerous situation. Taking out those handful of Osama Bin Laden followers could not really be that difficult. Instead we have now thousands of potential terrorists everywhere, and in every nation. Talk about a disaster. And I am not blaming any us citizen for this, we all know it's done by a handfull of people.

And, I am so glad the French did oppose the Irak invasion (I am not french, nor live in France), they knew what would be the outcome of all this.

reply to post by UM_Gazz


Please accept my sincere thanks for this thread, the cogency of your posts, and the invitation to reflect on how the USA and other occupying forces can exit Iraq.

Iraq is an artificial state. It cannot endure. It should not be kept alive artificially or simply to fulfil the whims of George Bush (or Hillary Clinton) or any other American leader. The British were dead wrong when they created it, and it is time to divide and send people to their respective quarters.

If there is to be success there must be mass relocation (some will scream "Ethnic cleansing" but it is the only way for this to work.

Kurdistan must have redefined borders and all Kurds in Iraq whether Muslim, Yezidi or Druze would have to relocate to Kurdistan. USA, Australian, and British forces would need to be deployed for a time in Kurdistan in order to thwart a Turkish invasion.

The western or northwestern zone where there are mostly Sunni Arabs should be given to the King of Jordan for integration into the Hashemite Kingdom. The young king is a trusted man in a region where no one trusts each other. Sunni Arabs in Iraq would be required to move into this sector and the Saudis can foot the bill for the relocation.

A southern Shia region with its capital in Basra should be jointly administered by the Kuwaitis, Dubai, the UAE and the Omanis with some troop participation from Egypt. An alternative is to, by way of poetic justice, give the entire southern region to the Kuwaitis and let them hire their mercenaries to bring the place under control.

Finally, Baghdad needs to be depopulated of Sunni and Shia Muslims. They all must leave -- Sunnis off to the new Jordanian sector, Shias to the south toward Basra.

The Baghdad city-state should then become an International city state and a refuge for all Christian Iraqis, Jewish Iraqis (including any who wish to return from Israel), Mandeans (the followers of John the Baptist), Arab Druze, Bahai, and Ismaeli Muslims (followers of the Aga Khan).

A final thought: once the world populace was terrorized by 9/11, the invasion into Afghanistan had world support in addition to American support. Because Americans were still in the grip of "Fear" from terrorization, attacking an old enemy like Iraq seemed essential (with respect to BNC WMDs) as well as justified (take out the dictator with the trash!).

Now that "Fear" and the terror machine are no longer a kind of fog in the mind, Americans are coming to their senses. Most Americans do not want to be involved in wars of pre-emption when they learn that this was the tactic of the Nazis. As the fog lifts and more realizations come, then more and more people look to Bush/Cheney as a significant source of the "Fear" and the ones who have capitalized upon it the most by arrogating to themselves more and more powers as well as saving Halliburton through all of the contracts awarded without competition. (Without the Iraq war and those contracts, Halliburton's financial outlook was not so grand.)

Originally posted by Pellevoisin
Please accept my sincere thanks for this thread, the cogency of your posts, and the invitation to reflect on how the USA and other occupying forces can exit Iraq.

Your welcome, and please accept my sincere thanks for a great contribution to this thread.

You summed up the religious and cultural divisions in Iraq quite well. Perhaps ultimately dividing Iraq up along these lines would be best, however the result may bring continued violence over border disputes.

There are no easy solutions for the current religious and political situation in Iraq, and ultimately the future should be up to the Iraqi people not the result of U.S. or international intervention in government and public affairs.

At some point we will no longer be able to impose our will, our vision on the Iraqi people, what happens then will be their ultimate destiny. IF we ever let that happen.