something i think about a lot/dinosaurs

Wow, this thread is really heading towards disaster.

Let me quickly give my opinion and be on my way before I am assaulted! First let me say for the record that I am a church-going Christian, but am by no means a religious scholar or an expert on the Bible. Let me also add that I don't swallow everything that my church or the Bible throws my way. I'm a free-thinker who believes that creationism and evolution are not mutually exclusive.

Now, to the whole dinosaurs/Bible subject, which is what we should all be discussing instead of "genocide" and other unrelated issues that already have a 1,000+ other threads dedicated to them here on ATS. What you need to understand when reading the Bible is that it is man's interpretation of the word of God, as well as stories from some of his more notable believers. These words have been translated over and over since they were originally written. In addition to that, those in power have chosen in the past which words/stories to include in the Bible and which to exclude. So just because the mentioning of dinosaurs isn't in the Bible does not mean that God, or Jesus for that matter, never spoke of them. For all we know there could be a whole book written about dinosaurs that was meant to be in the Bible but for one reason or another was left out, and sits buried in the desert somewhere to this very day. There are countless books/gospels that were cut from the Bible that I believe should have been included. Some of those have been partially lost to time and we only have pieces of them left. For all we know there could have been a mention of dinosaurs in any of those missing scrolls.

In addition, as was mentioned numerous times in this thread, the Bible is the story of God's relationship with man. It is not "The Land Before Time" or "Jurassic Park". Just because dinosaurs aren't mentioned does not mean that God didn't create them. For instance, the greyhound is the only breed of dog referenced in the Bible. Does that mean that God only created greyhounds and not any of the other breeds? Of course not. Just like it doesn't mean that God didn't create the millions of other things that aren't mentioned in the Bible. Remember, the authors of the Bible didn't set out to write Encyclopedia Britannica. That wasn't their intent.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
except for those parts where god isn't present at all... as in everything between the last gospel and revelation.

God still judged humanity during those times. Judgement is an ongoing process. Revelation (personal) continues to this day, and is the only reason I am a Christian.

well, it doesn't necessarily say "let's go kill the unbelievers" but the commandment to not kill people didn't apply to them.

The commandments apply to everyone at all times. God is the judge of those acts, not you or me, and the point is, that according to the Bible, God's judgement was exercised on specific groups of people, specific places, at specific times. Not in a broad based, let's kill the unbelievers kind of way, which is the assertion you made that was being addressed. Thanks for admitting your error.

It's a specific judgement against a specific group of people at a specific time, and it has nothing to do with being a general command to commit genocide against unbelievers. Specific people, specific place, specific time.

BUT IT'S STILL GENOCIDE.

Perhaps. But what it is not, is a specific order to commit genocide against unbelievers. For the fifteenth time in this thread, it's a specific judgement against specific people at a specific time. I would encourage you to take the issue up with Him personally.

Look, the point is that there is no general command to wipe out unbelievers as you stated. God gave the command the wipe out specific people in a specific place, at a specific time.

then god is definitely worse than hitler.

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. That's the beauty of free will.

Actually, I never discussed the morality of it. I merely corrected your factually incorrect statement that the Bible orders genocide against unbelievers. It doesn't. For the tenth time in a single page. Those were specific judgements against specific people at a specific time, not a broad based order to slay unbelievers.

actually, it was a broad-based attack against anyone that lived on this specific strip of land....

Yep, it was a specific judgement against specific people in a specific place, at a specific time.

That's another book; perhaps you have them confused.

leviticus?

Wow, you really are confused. Leviticus is part of the Bible, which we've already established doesn't order people to commit genocide against unbelievers, it only deals with specifics.

Originally posted by TheBadge
so im hoping this is the right category anyway if not sorry about that..

So I always think about the dinosaurs/the bible story.
if god made all living things how come there is no talk about dinosaurs in the bible? they say dinosaurs came before humans. whats the deal with that? i havent read the whole bible but i dont remember any mention of dinosaurs

but hey correct me if i am wrong. just wanted to know what the explanation is for that.

ps.
i love dinosaurs!

It's probably because the bible was written by people who didn't know anything about dinosaurs.

And where do they mention Kangaroos in the Bible?
Just saying that it really doesn't prove or disprove anything.

I do believe someone here did pop up a verse in the Bible that did sound rather Dinosaurish, though it could have been a second, third or worse account of some large African beast.

hey i dig the response rasputin! okay i get what you others are trying to say. i guess it answers my question eh? stuff gets lost in translation then.

Dinosaurs existed along with humans, duh:



But seriously folks, do any bibles mention dinosaurs? Heck, even scientists didnt know what dinosaurs were until the nineteenth century. Before that people thought they were mythological beasts like griffens, etc.

Since dinosaurs were long since extinct when Adam+Eve were created, Adam didnt have to give them names or even acknowledge that there were other beings before him. (But humans were created on the 6th day of one week!) A Jewish legend tells: "Nor is this world inhabited by man the first of things Earthly created by God. He made several worlds before ours, but he destroyed them all."

Well, according to the Mayan calendar there are 7 days and 6 nights of creation. But the "week of creation" happens 9 times, each week/cycle is 20 times faster than the last one.

Why the hell are you talking about the Mayan calendar when this thread is about semetic religious beliefs? Well, if the "week of creation" is real, then why not look for it in other religions? Maybe the version we're familiar with is the abridged version. (Several other myths of the bible are found in other religions but in much longer epic versions.)

So on the first week of creation each day and night was a little over a billion years long. The next few levels move faster and faster until the one when humans appear. So.. on the sixth day, of another week, humans may have been created.

Mayan pyramids are 5 or 9 leveled.
9 levels of consciousness/creation
7 days, 6 nights in each level. = 13 sections in each cylce/week/level
Picture a 9 level stepped pyramid with each level representing on week of creation.

(Why are some pyramids 5-stepped? Because the 5th Day is something new like colored sight, fire, art.. 5th Night is when something happened like meteor or ice age..)

These are the cylces according to one guy. Each one has 7 days + 6 nights. The last cycle ends in 2011 instead of 2012. Each day/night in the last week is about 20 days long, and the whole week of creation in the last cycle is only about 37 'real' weeks long, (while the very first cycle/week lasted 16 billion years).

First Week/Cycle/Level (cellular) 16.4 Bil yrs ago. 16.4/13= 1.26bil years for each day and night.
2nd.Week (mamillion(mammals)) 820 million years ago. 63.4 millon years ago mammals survive.
3rd.Week (Family, Familiar) 41 millions years ago. Monkeys and families. Consciousness of individual.
4th Week (Tribal) 2 million years ago. Austrolopithicus (tailess ape) (It is probably on the 6th day of this week/cycle that man was created. Which would be about half a million years ago if my math is correct.)
5th Week (Cultural) 102,000 yrs ago. (each day/night is about 8,000 years long - change of intention)
6th Week (National) 5,116 years ago (3115 BC) Lower+Upper Egypt united by King Minos. (day is 397 years long)
7th Week (Planetary) 1755 AD (day is 19.7 years) Industrial revolution.
8th Week (Galactic) Jan 5, 1999 (day is 360 days)
9th Week (Universal) Feb 10, 2011 (day is 20 days)

[edit on 5/30/2007 by ViolatoR]

Oh boy the very last time I went to church with my sister, it was a calvary chapel church, Christians. Well This guy did the whole summon on how it dinosaurs where alive a few thousand years ago, and went on to tell how in history they tell about dragons and giant lizards and what not.

Every one eat it up like candy. I only went out of respect toward my sister and her family I was staying with them at the time. But I thought is was so BS I decided that was the last time I’d ever set foot in a church again. Dinosaurs alive a few thousand years ago, ha ha jokes on me lol. If dinosaurs where alive today we’d have KFD Kentucky fried dinosaur lol.

violatR those pics are real cool I have never seen anything like that!!

i love the stuff about the calendar and everything i had to read it a few times but still very interesting!!! thanks

Well, this should be interesting.

You do realize that "God created all living things" and "They aren't mentioned in the Bible" aren't exclusive statements? I don't recall the Bible mentioning macaws, but I have a rather large one sitting on my shoulder while I type this, mooching almonds off me. I don't recall any mention of Maine Coon Cats, but there's a 20lb something curled up at my feet.

There are a lot of things the Bible isn't, and was never intended to be. It's not a math textbook, nor is it a physics textbook. It certainly isn't an exhaustive cataloge of (to borrow from Cecil Adams) "All things bright and beatiful. all creatures great and small".

Oddly enough, I don't see any mention of dinosaurs in my old math textbooks, or in any of Norman Friedman's books on warship design. Does that make them 'unbelievable'? Not to anyone with good sense (I would say 'common sense', but alas, it's not common these days). No book, whether divine or mundane, discusses *every* subject. Rather, they concentrate on one subject, or a few subjects, and present material germane to a discussion of those subjects.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

then god is definitely worse than hitler.

if it was all part of God's master plan and God *knows* any dead humans are actually being released from their bondage of the flesh into his kingdom or into *something* non-physical then so be it. He was worse than Hitler in that respect.

but he isnt worse than hitler on the mass genocide bit because he didn't instruct the Jews to systematicly capture and kill every nonbeliever on Earth.

no, thats what Mohammad instructed the muslims to do.

you want a father figure for Hitler? talk about Mohammad okay, because hes the only one that spoke of genocide on such terms.

leviticus?

madness, you should know by now that Leviticus is crap and not followed by Christian doctrine, only Observant Jews. Thats the "612 commandments"

if we followed Leviticus, we'd all have to run around naked because our clothes are made of blended fibres, which is illegal in Leviticus! Jesus even stated Leviticus was not what he followed.

If the Council of Nicea coulda done ONE thing right, it woud've been removing this book, lol. But no, they left it there, to be the single gleaming spark of hope for ammunition to every nonbeliever to show how stupid the rules of religion are. If only they couldve added a prefix saying "Note: This is how foolish the rules of Orthodox Judaism are, and why you should appreciate Christianity".





[edit on 5/30/2007 by runetang]

Well there is that whole one of the five books of the Torrah, but we can let that slide.

And some say that because they did not do as commanded we have the whole problem in the Middle East to this day still. To each their own I guess.

And to TheBadge, is anything that is remembered truely absent? And if dragons are dinos and dragons are also serpents, then the whole original sin could be caused by some crafty raptor that wanted to get rid of the squishy people.

Kallikak,

Great job! Your explanations are very clear and concise and also saved me some time.

Pweagle,

I wouldn’t base my entire perception of Christianity on one trip to a church.

If God created the Dinosours why arent they here now? Did he make a mistake and wanted to make Humans instead?
Are we only here now because of Christ saving us? Why no saviour for the Dinos? Seems a bit unfair imo.
I can understand the theory of Gods message being only relevant to Humanity but if the good book can prophecise events and warns us of the future,it would of been handy to include past events as proof-that can only be proved at a later date(like Dinosaurs)as a kicker.
To prove he really is omnipotent and almighty through space and time? (I still believe he/she is)
Maybe Constantine and his Bible editors left those bits out? or maybe its just irrelevant to Gods message? Or God doesnt exist and the people who wrote the bible didnt know about Dinos?
I personally think God works in mysterious ways,the Bible is taken too literally(seriously?) and God can still be respected if he made Dinos or not,maybe he wiped them out because they didnt have religion? He's one cold mo fo.

Originally posted by Brother Stormhammer
I don't recall the Bible mentioning macaws, but I have a rather large one sitting on my shoulder while I type this, mooching almonds off me. I don't recall any mention of Maine Coon Cats, but there's a 20lb something curled up at my feet.

Did macaws or Maine Coon Cats rule the earth at any time? Dinosaurs were at the top of the food chain for a much longer period of time than humans have been, funny how we like to paint ourselves as the center of all existence. I've heard religious explanations such as the dinosaurs were put here to prepare the earth for man, or that dinosaurs never actually existed and god put the fossils here to test mens faith. What a practical joker god is, eh? The reason the bible doesn't mention dinosaurs, IMO, is because it's a book of mythology written by people a long time ago to explain the unexplainable. I'm just amazed people still buy into it to this day, I really am. Religion is the biggest problem with mankind, if people would just have faith in a higher power without having to label it, and treat others with respect, alot of problems and death would go away. There is proof of evolution, but that doesn't mean evolution isn't part of a bigger plan or design.

Originally posted by TheBadge
so im hoping this is the right category anyway if not sorry about that..

So I always think about the dinosaurs/the bible story.
if god made all living things how come there is no talk about dinosaurs in the bible? they say dinosaurs came before humans. whats the deal with that? i havent read the whole bible but i dont remember any mention of dinosaurs

but hey correct me if i am wrong. just wanted to know what the explanation is for that.

ps.
i love dinosaurs!

There is mention of at least two dinosaurs in the bible. "Behemoth" and "Leviathan". Notice it says that Behemoth "moveth his tail like a cedar". Some bible "scholars" like to say behemoth is an elephant. Does an elephant's tail sway "like a cedar" or like a fly-swatter? If you want to see Behemoth's tail sway like a cedar, watch the scene in Jurassic Park where they first see the Brachiosaurus.

Here are some good images of cedar trees. Which fits closer, an elephant's tail, or a Brachiosaurus' tail? images.google.com...://www.habeeb.com/images/cedar.of.lebanon.old.cedar.tree.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.habeeb.com/cedar.of.leban on/cedars.of.lebanon.multimillenary.trees.html&h=782&w=525&sz=88&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=ce47UsxCpB0h4M:&tbnh=143&tbnw=96&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcedar%2Btree% 26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

Read real close the description of "Leviathan". It sounds suspiciously like a dragon. Today's bible "scholars" will say this is a description of a crocodile. God specifically (and rhetorically) asks Job "Can you draw out Leviathan with a hook?" People do that today with crocodiles. Most of us have even seen Steve Irwin do it with his bare hands. Notice also Job 41:25 "When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves." Do you know what this verse means? It means that the mighty are so afraid of him, they LITERALLY # themselves.

I hope this helps.


Job 40:15-24 (King James Version)

15Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

16Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

17He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

18His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

19He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.

20Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.

21He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.

22The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.

23Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.

24He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.

Job 41

1Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?

2Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?

3Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?

4Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?

5Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?

6Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?

7Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears?

8Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.

9Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?

10None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?

11Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.

12I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion.

13Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle?

(continued)

14Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.

15His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.

16One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.

17They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.

18By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.

19Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.

20Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.

21His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.

22In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.

23The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.

24His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone.

25When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves.

26The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.

27He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.

28The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.

29Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear.

30Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.

thebiblefacts.com...

Hmm... You say it has never been revised or changed and yet here I find that there are 80,000 versions from a Bible-fact group...

Bibles changed to fit social/cultural/political situations over the ages... Been translated from at least 5-different languages to the current English version...

www.goarch.org...

Yet again showing more evidence of translation.

Originally posted by sir_chancealot
There is mention of at least two dinosaurs in the bible. "Behemoth" and "Leviathan".

Leviathan is supposed to be one of the four names or crowns of Satan who's altar element is the water. It was probably inspired by some large sea creature like a giant squid. I doubt it has anything to do with the dinosaurs.

wow sir chaneclot, i just gave you 5 stars. awesome. i didn't even know that was in the text! if they aren't talking about dinosaurs or legends of dinosaurs, then I dont know what they could be talking about. It's too obvious to refute.

Job 40:15-24 (King James Version)

15Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

16Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

17He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

18His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

19He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.

This means his tail is as big as a tree, his bones are as thick and strong as bars of iron, and his force is in his belly, ie; his weight, which he uses to swing his tail, or to rush another creature with its' weight. He's clearly talking about a Herbivore dinosaur here, because it eats grass like an Ox. In that case, the Dinosaur's main weapon would be its own body weight, and its tail. Clearly depicted here.

Job 41

11Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.

12I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion.

14Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.

15His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.

16One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.

17They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.

18By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.

a CLEAR depiction of a very large, scaled beast, with many sharp teeth.

19Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.

20Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.

21His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.

22In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.

23The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.

26The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.

28The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.

29Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear.

30Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.

Here we have some "Dinosaur Folklore" added in, where people of the day thought that Dinosaur remnants were actually Dragon remnants; that Dinosaurs were Dragons, or that Dinosaurs spit fire and smoked came from their nostrils. Then it goes on to further described its' SCALED appearance, and even says that darts, spears, arrows, and slingstones are like mere stubble to it, that they aren't sh#t basicly. I dont think this could be any clearer.

Now, to an actual "explanation" of "why" God would've allowed the Dinosaurs to exist, or evolve, or even create them if that was the case. This is more difficult. The texts say that God simply did it 'because he could' , it doesn't offer much explanation. We are left to guess and wonder and assume.

I believe in Evolution and Creation, side by side, as partners. Evolution is as described, but Creation comes in and does "modifications" and "perfections" to the evolved beings / creatures / animals. In the case of Human beings, Apes evolved slowly into Half-human Half-ape like creatures, then the "missing link" happened, then poof, we have super intelligent Homosapiens on the scene. In this case, Creation came in, took the most evolved Apelike being, and perfected it into a Homosapien, placing a man, then a woman, so that they could make offspring. But I doubt it was just 2 as the story goes.

Lets think about that. If apes evolved straight into homosapiens, with no 'extra help' from God or anything else (aliens), Did the "missing link" just pop out some Homosapien babies one day, after being pregnant? I mean, where does the Homosapien line start exactly. Where can you point and say, from this point on, they were Homosapien? You cant. And its not because we just dont have the evidence, its because the evidence doesn't exist. There is no missing link. God is the missing link, IMO.

Back to the Dinosaurs. Since God intelligently designed evolution to work as it does (how do you like that for a stance on evolution vs intelligent design?), he obviously had some things in mind at the time. He decided that Dinosaurs would evolve over time into smaller creatures that fly like modern day birds. We all know the scientific link between birds and dinosaurs, they are related. Obviously God knew we'd need birds, and so he made the Dinosaurs evolve from what they evolved from, full well knowing a time would come for their destruction and then evolution into smaller, bird-like creatures. These creatures would later become integral to the Earth we live on today. The world's eco-systems depend on birds for all manner of things. Humans depend on birds alone as a primary food source. If birds didn't exist, which would be the case if Dinosaurs hadn't existed, this world would be in some serious trouble, and wed have lots of problems on our hands. Even MORE people would starve and go hungry.. it would just be terrible. Can you imagine?

And only through the widsom and power of God could something so large and mighty as a Dinosaur evolve over time and circumstance into something so small and weak such as a Chicken for Humans to eat en masse. That itself is a testament to God's infinite power.

If you were something intelligent, but not human, and witnessed the Dinosaurs when they were alive, and didn't know about the future, if another non-physical being popped up beside you as you were observing and said, "one day these will be no taller than a foot or two tall, fly through the air, and become a primary food source for the descendants of those little furry rats scurry about under the brush", you'd be like SUUUURE. You'd laugh at them at the mere thought. That is the power of God, his plan is carried forth in all things, in all ways.

Originally posted by AbitTweaked
thebiblefacts.com...

Hmm... You say it has never been revised or changed and yet here I find that there are 80,000 versions from a Bible-fact group...

Bibles changed to fit social/cultural/political situations over the ages... Been translated from at least 5-different languages to the current English version...

www.goarch.org...

Yet again showing more evidence of translation.

Did you even bother to read the links you posted? It certainly doesn't appear that way. The 'versions' you cite are different translations, different varieties of Bible, KJV, NIV, etc. and are not 'revisions' or changes to underlying information contained within. The versions you referred to differ in age, translation, etc.

Bibles have not in fact "changed to fit any social/political/cultural situations.'

In fact of the more than 14,000 versions of the OT in the original Hebrew known, and the more than 5000 versions of the NT in the original Greek and Aramic, what is noted is remarkable consistency between the texts.

Your links prove nothing, and don't even come close to supporting your original assertion.

Care to try again?