Masonry and "The Word"

Originally posted by corsig

Can you or someone else in very layman's terms tell me actually what this is and what are you trying to show us. Is it that each letter has a mathematical equivalence that when added up says something else??

Sorta, Some languages like Hebrew did not use separate symbols for numbers they used their alphabet for numbers, so when reading something every word can be read as a number.

Now when you get into Qabalah it is said if word A has a value of 19 and word B has a value of 19, there is some sort of mystical connection between the two words.



What the OP is doing in this thread is the same thing with English.

My problem with this is English does not use it's alphabet as numbers so there is no historical or "mystic" basis for it. Every version I have looked at seems to be rather forced in nature, and overly complex.

The value of the word Sun in this case would be 14 not 365.. if your looking for the value of a word you should use the word's value and not each letter's value.

You seem to be trying to fit a Square Peg into a Round Hole. How in the heck do you validate that SUN "magically" turned into 14? This makes no sense whatsoever.




Does "S=3 - YES", does U=5 (and don't tell me you are not aware of the maxim of 5=6)? Yes. Is not the Sum of 1:6, however, = 21, or U? YES, does N = 5? YES

So the esoteric or hidden code of SUN is

S = 3
U = 6 (as a product of the sum of 1:6, wherein the 6 is key_
N = 5

This is just common basic cryptology (aka, esoteric gematria). How then did you take an absolute and pervert it to "14"? What logic and reason did you use? Jewish?

You changed the value of a letter just to make it fit your idea. If you work this way you can make a meaning fit anything you want. It has no esoteric value at all. Why did the value of U have to change if not to fit your theory?

There are over 100 gematria systems used by various Initated Systems, so who is anyone to make an assumption as to which is in play. Furthermore, the technique as shown above is well documented in numerous documents so who gave you the impression, or worse, why have you not already solved for this dilemma and adjusted accordingly?

Crowley himself says the following in his work titled Gematria. And mind you, I am no Crowley fan, but he did release more of the basic code than anyone to date, so he served a valuable purpose even as he tried to fit his system to Hebrew (an inherent absurdity). However, as he stated and we in general concur:

The methods of discovering Dogma from sacred Words are also numerous and 
important: I may mention: ---

("a)" The Doctrine of Sympathies: drawn from the total Numeration of a 
Word, when identical with, or a Multiple of Submultiple of, or a Metathesis 
of, that of another Word.

("b)" The Method of finding the Least Number of a Word, by adding (and re- 
adding) the Digits of its total Number, and taking the corresponding Key of 
the Taro as a Key to the Meaning of the Word.

("c") The Method of Analogies drawn from the Shape of the Letters.

("d") The Method of Deductions drawn from the Meanings and Correspondences 
of the letters.

("e") The Method of Acrostics drawn from the Letters. This Mode is only 
valid for Adepts of the highest Grades, and then under quite exceptional 
and rare Conditions. [84]

("f") The Method of Transpositions and Transmutations of the Letters, which 
suggest Analogies, even when they fail to explain in direct Fashion.

All these and their Varieties and Combinations, with some other more 
abstruse or less important Methods, may be used to unlock the Secret of a 
Word.

Of course with Powers so wide it is easy for the Partisan to find his 
favourite Meaning in any Word. Even the formal Proof 0 = 1 = 2 = 3 = 4 = 5 
= ....... = n is possible.

The point is and has always been to "unlock" the hidden meaning or essence of a word, with full concious knowledge that there are a series of transmutations/transpositions going on.

That we did what we did falls fully within the Construct of precisely how it was done.

In this way, we can show that DIOS, when the Letters are set against the summations,

D=4 =10
I=9=45
O=15-120
S=19=190

DIOS = 10+45+120+190 = 365 or

T = 4 = 10
H = 8 = 36
E = 5

THE = (T*H)+E = (10*36)+5 = 365

You simply cannot try to fit a Jewish system and apply it to English. The exercise is an exercise in futility.

I see... You are just another in a long line of outsiders (non masons) trying to claim that the insiders (masons) dont know what we are talking about and dont know what is REALLY going on etc. Enjoy your fantasy.

I play a very good poker game. And I know my Craft far better than most. This provides me access where most only dream to go. Recently I met with the head of the Iraqi Sunnis, as well as the second highest ranking Mason in a strategic US aligned ME country, and a former Mason who is the second in line of communications for a major United Nations deployment.




With all due respect, you should take time to learn about others before you make assumptions that somehow because of virtue of your path that somehow you have nothing to learn from others.

The only fantasy here is the fantasy in your head that my knowledge and insights are not indeed very well received within very connected Masonic/Initiated circles.

I am welcome in more places than most would ever imagine...but who really cares?

It is all just a fantasy played out in a game called "LIFE". Being an "outsider" must somehow be a terrible disadvantage? What made you think I needed a cocoon?


[edit on 30-5-2007 by TheFetch]

[edit on 30-5-2007 by TheFetch]

Sorta, Some languages like Hebrew did not use separate symbols for numbers they used their alphabet for numbers, so when reading something every word can be read as a number.

I do hope you will be able to discuss these issues beyond public/profane simplicities. The very letter B is designed around the mathematical formula of 1+2=3, using the glyphs 1 and 3 to create the word.

What makes you think that the hidden powers who control this Earth do not indeed put a very acute importance to Numbers set to Sound set to the 26 Key Letters?

My problem with this is English does not use it's alphabet as numbers so there is no historical or "mystic" basis for it.

Agreed. It is your problem. The Letter Number System has been existence since seemingly the beginning of the various Initiated Systems. To assume it is not in play in English is the grossest of all errors. The answers are oft where you least expect them.

To assume it is a problem to they who utilize this craft is of course, far from rational. I prefer to pierce it and understand it so as to utilize and expose it. It is far more interesting and educational than wasting my time trying to make Hebrew fit into English as if somehow Western Systems are predicated on what Jews say.

That is akin to a capitulation.

Originally posted by TheFetch

I see... You are just another in a long line of outsiders (non masons) trying to claim that the insiders (masons) dont know what we are talking about and dont know what is REALLY going on etc. Enjoy your fantasy.

I play a very good poker game. And I know my Craft far better than most. This provides me access where most only dream to go. Recently I met with the head of the Iraqi Sunnis, as well as the second highest ranking Mason in a strategic US aligned ME country, and a former Mason who is the second in line of communications for a major United Nations deployment.

With all due respect, you should take time to learn about others before you make assumptions that somehow because of virtue of your path that somehow you have nothing to learn from others.

The only fantasy here is the fantasy in your head that my knowledge and insights are not indeed very well received within very connected Masonic/Initiated circles.

I am welcome in more places than most would ever imagine...but who really cares?

It is all just a fantasy played out in a game called "LIFE". Being an "outsider" must somehow be a terrible disadvantage? What made you think I needed a cocoon?

Hey it is your ego trip...you can do the driving.

As a side note, if that is you in the photos, while in America try out our wonderful dental care. Teeth....thay are not just for westerners anymore.

[edit on 30-5-2007 by RWPBR]

Hey it is your ego trip...you can do the driving.

You are right. It is "my ego trip", also known as "my journey" or "life". I think I will stay dedicated to my purpose, but thanks for sharing your views equally.

Originally posted by TheFetch


And more, the word ASSININE means to speak in a manner of insanity or foolishness. Yet is not ASSININE a placement code?

The ASS (the Letter) I (is located at) NINE

Hey, you guys are way over my head (and don't get flattered. It's not that tough to do. ) But the word is spelled- "asinine" if that matters. Meaning, "devoid of intelligence".

Anyway, please continue. If you wait for me to catch up, you'll never get anywhere. Interesting topic.

personally, im fascinated. just ignore the personal comments. prime examples of logical / conversational fallacies.

You have every right to use any system if it helps you make connections.

However Id advise you to let the numbers do the talking, and not force them to fit preconceived notions, something that is very easy when using English Gematria. You might become trapped in a maze of math problems and fail to see the forest for the trees.

Have fun

I'm kind of digging this. I'll be a bystander reading what you guys find but I'll never be smart enough to pick it up myself.

Originally posted by Cug
PS if You, Me and Tamahu start posting our respective opinions of this we are gona confuse the heck out of the average poster here.

To be honest, some of this is "over my head" as well.



Perhaps after utilizing the Keys given by Samael Aun Weor, along with the study of Godfrey Higgins'(a Templar/FreeMason who received the torch of Druidry from the Master William Blake) system and Thomas Taylor's(the Greatest modern Platonist) Theoretic Arithmetic of the Pythagoreans, I'll come back to this thread and see how it all adds up.


Also, TheFetch, what might you have to share about the ancient and recent situation of the sects of Islam: Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Ismaili, Druses, Bretheren of Purity, Moorish Science Temple sects etc.; that is, if you don't mind sharing your brief over-view of the current state of Islamic Occult sects....




[edit on 30-5-2007 by Tamahu]

You can play with words and numbers and break them down into things they really have nothing to do with, but in the end a set agenda will dictate the outcome of the following findings.. thus this is not a scientific method what so ever.

The only way this could possibly actually work is if you lay out the alphabet, give each letter a designated number, and make that the official, because in so many "studies" the numbers in representation change.

Then you have to take the equivalently of every language and make them the same value..

To say the English language is "devine" is to say you already have an agenda off the bat, because the English language is a mix of romance and Germanic.

Any ways, here at ATS we have a group of people who do this "word break downs" and are never right.

And you need to post links to your pics ect.

Perhaps after utilizing the Keys given by Samael Aun Weor, along with the study of Godfrey Higgins'(a Templar/FreeMason who received the torch of Druidry from the Master William Blake) system and Thomas Taylor's(the Greatest modern Platonist) Theoretic Arithmetic of the Pythagoreans, I'll come back to this thread and see how it all adds up.

I always will defer to those who show respect. If you will, allow me to bring as much information to the table to aid you in your decision for there is no value in a coerced state of existence.

Know thyself is not something taken lightly on our side, and we assume too you share in this knowledge and ideal.

Our point is that the "Word" is "that upon which we may weigh the truth". You mention Higgins. An excellent start point.

Here is what he has to say about "PI" as a key to the whole of the construct.







[edit on 30-5-2007 by TheFetch]

Originally posted by TheFetch

Does "S=3 - YES", does U=5 (and don't tell me you are not aware of the maxim of 5=6)? Yes. Is not the Sum of 1:6, however, = 21, or U? YES, does N = 5? YES

So the esoteric or hidden code of SUN is

S = 3
U = 6 (as a product of the sum of 1:6, wherein the 6 is key_
N = 5

Explain it again please. The only reason I can see for doing the math on U is to get your desired result. Why was it done to U and not to S or N?

I always will defer to those who show respect.

And you say this after taking a dig at my religion?

Originally posted by Cug


My problem with this is English does not use it's alphabet as numbers so there is no historical or "mystic" basis for it. Every version I have looked at seems to be rather forced in nature, and overly complex.

I agree. And as the brother mentioned above, English is a hybrid Germanic language, incorporating many elements from the continental Latin-influenced Romantic languages. It seems to lack a certain purity.

Nevertheless, we read in AL II:55

"Thou shalt obtain the order & value of the English Alphabet; thou shalt find new symbols to attribute them unto."

I've always found this verse curious (as if the other verses weren't!).

This is an amazing thread, keep it going, I want to learn, really I do, it is so hard to think in a manner that is totally alien to oneself.

I have some reservations and mental hangups that make learning this difficult as well.

By the way RWPBR I have a lot of respect for you, and you are my brother, but that line about teeth, come on brother resorting to personal attacks in an intellectual debate? Thats so beneath you, debating and searching for the truth and discerning it for ourselves is what we all are here for isn't it.

1: I consider them to be pictures of someone else and not the OP as they look fake.
2: My responses were civil and on topic until his responses turned uncivil.

I have had many conversations with persons here and when kept civil I responded in kind and when they went south I am more than happy to get in the mud with them.

Originally posted by brotherforchrist
This is an amazing thread, keep it going, I want to learn, really I do, it is so hard to think in a manner that is totally alien to oneself.

I have some reservations and mental hangups that make learning this difficult as well.

"learn" is the wrong term to use friend, not even understand in this case. Before you learn the topic, it would be wise to learn what is being presented, and then learn the background of this and many more studies, and you may learn there is nothing to learn here, and the outcome would be more knowledge that you seek.

This guy has copy and pasted every single thing he has said -- nothing is original.. the numbers, workings, equations.. you can tell they where copy and pasted.

I have no qualms with this mans information he is showing except that it is false in my opinion, however I DO have a problem with the presenter...


He just gives off a bad vibe.

I believe the work is copied, I believe the pics are all fake, and I don't think he is who he says he is.

So friend, be careful before you fully trust someone who spits out fancy writing and vomits numerical equations.. it can sound far more valuable then it really is.

double post

[edit on 31-5-2007 by RWPBR]