Art, the Shaman and a Quantum Physicist

I remember one night staring into them so long that I would get glimpses of the living room (my eyes are closed remind you), and other scenes or places.

That happened to me, too.
A few nights ago, I was seeing my bedroom (which was dark) extremely clearly... until I became aware that my eyes had been closed all the time. (It only took a second or two, of course, but the duration seemed much longer.)
I was slightly startled, opened my eyes - and my vision immediately reversed to its myopic open-eyed self...

I cannot believe I never found this thread before. it is right up my alley. RIGHT up my alley.

Masqua...i think it was you that one time posted a video showing how the brain and eyes can short circuit, allowing you to actually see the waves of patterns washing across the brain. I have scoured the web for several days trying to find it. I cam searching through your threads, and found this wonderful gem. Phosphenes are a fascinating subject for me, and I spent a lot of time studying my own. The other day i was almost overcome by what looked like i was approaching the brightest hole, and when i finally got to the hole, i realized there was a blue sky on the other side. it was like the regular light i was used to was like complete darkness compared to this light. Of course, it was a phosphene. But it came during a meditative state, and I seized on it.

Anyway, I would really like to have that video, if you know what I am talking about. I have experienced that phenomena while in the shower, when the water was right at the point between pleasure and pain, and it was running down over my skull, starting at the "crown".

Check my post history. I don't post about this stuff often. But the are profound moments in my life.

Something else that happens, and no one else i know of has this happen to them from my own questioning.

Sometimes my entire field of vision will fill with a brilliant light. It is phosphene in type, not like a real light. But a brilliant shape that is so large that it fills my entire field of vision. After a little while it starts to pulsate, but not in rhythm with my pulse. it will flash between brilliant hues of yellow, teal, and white. The edges are always white, and sometimes have "tendrils" that shoot off the primary body of the image.

It lasts for awhile, then passes. If i am driving, i have to pull over. I don't have glaucoma, BP is in order (occasionally slightly elevated on the systolic, diastolic always in line, if i take even mild BP meds like Diovan it bottoms it out, so i take nothing). My thyroid is a little off, but that isn't clinical yet (not off enough to medicate). Other than that, no health problems.

Been happening since my first memories, and I am 38 now.

It has always puzzled me. I am going to have my wife check to see if my pupil dilates in response (never thought to check until now).

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
Masqua...i think it was you that one time posted a video showing how the brain and eyes can short circuit, allowing you to actually see the waves of patterns washing across the brain.

Been pondering on that particular video for the past two days and have no idea where to find it... sorry. The only answer I can come up with is that it was included in the OP of this thread but, for some unkown reason, it got pulled and I subsequently removed the link.

This doesn't mean I will stop searching for it.

Sometimes my entire field of vision will fill with a brilliant light. It is phosphene in type, not like a real light. But a brilliant shape that is so large that it fills my entire field of vision. After a little while it starts to pulsate, but not in rhythm with my pulse. it will flash between brilliant hues of yellow, teal, and white. The edges are always white, and sometimes have "tendrils" that shoot off the primary body of the image.

Very close to what I also have as an occlusion. Mine is a large 'boat-like' area of vision which covers approximately a quarter of the area and consists of coloured segments which 'flow', much like liquid frosted crystaline. To describe it is almost impossible, but I HAVE painted it:

Simple design:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c952b9d0500d.jpg[/atsimg]

Detailed:



From what I've learned, the 'boat' is a precurser to migraine headaches, which my mother suffered from and I've yet to experience in my life. I'm not sure how this relates to what you see yourself, but at least it's an attempt.

On the tendrils, here is another representation which may be applicable:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1a3fb0ef05b3.jpg[/atsimg]

it is a great idea to try to recreate them. i am going to do that. it would be a great addition to my attempts to gain photoshop proficiency.

The way you describe the flowing across the boat...that is the same effect. And you have the same colors in yours that I see in mine. The whites, yellows, and teals.

I see many, many different shapes. Rarely the same one twice.

reply to post by masqua


one more thing...you know the video I am talking about?

masqua,

Your "My paintings" link in your sig doesn't lead anywhere or at least for now.

I always like looking into your new paintings, can you please post a new link.


Thanks,

RT

reply to post by Realtruth


Thanks, I'll check it out. Most of those works are related to the subject.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by masqua

 

one more thing...you know the video I am talking about?

Vaguely... if I was certain, I'd be quicker finding a link.

However, one person in this entire planet who has done much research is David Lewis-Williams

.D. Lewis-Williams and T.A. Dowson (1988) in their article 'The Signs of All Times' propose a neurobridge backwards in time to the Upper Palaeolithic by which we can gain insight into the nature of the origins of art. Our nervous system has not changed much in the past 100,000 years. We are still physically very much the hunter-gatherers we were prior to agrarianism. In the signs of Upper Palaeolithic art Lewis-Williams and Dowson see entoptic phenomena very similar to those produced by people in altered states of consciousness today. 'Entoptic' is derived from the Greek for 'within vision', that is, anywhere within the optic system between and including the eye itself and the cortex where signals from the optic nerve are interpreted (Lewis-Williams and Dowson, 1988). Lewis-Williams and Dowson further break these down into 'phosphenes' which can be produced by physical stimulation (such as the patterns seen when you close your eyes and apply gentle pressure to your eyelids), and 'form constants' which are produced beyond the eye in the cortex itself. It is the latter which Lewis-Williams and Dowson (1988) primarily focus on, though they do not exclude phosphenes, and refer to both under the general term 'entoptics'. They do, however, distinguish between entoptics and hallucinations. Entoptics are geometric patterns whose origins are in the nervous system itself, whereas hallucinations are iconic and culturally determined and may be experienced in all senses (aural, visual, tactile, olfactory and synesthetic) not just the visual. Hallucinations may arise out of entoptics as will be outlined shortly.

Here is Lewis-Williams in a series of vids

There are some artsy vids that come close to the real thing, but I'll keep trying to find a vid that scientifically describes what's happening.

A related ATS thread

A fairly detailed look into phospenes and entoptics

IMHO, video or not, the answers we're both seeking lie in the books and articles written by David Lewis-Williams. Quite a while ago, I picked up The Mind in the Cave and became completely focussed on that author's work.

Recent research findings in the fields of archeology, anthropology and neuropsychology, among other social and physical sciences, bear upon the elaboration of these two ideas in the first two thirds of the book, while the final third details the author's interpretations of the animal and geometric imagery found in such sites as France's Lascaux and Gabillou caves. Having presented the science supporting his views of prehistoric images, Lewis-Williams is particularly winning as he subtly reveals his devotion to the art and people he attempts to explain. He is sensitive to those who "saw real things, real spirit animals and beings, real transformations" on cave walls.

We really DO need to go back over our entire historical record of art in order to make any sense of what phosphenes and entoptics have contributed to civilization. In the quest to understanding the phenomena, we have, over the course of tens of thousands of years, been lured into a civil society by these visions and our interpretations of them.

The 'hallucinations' experienced in altered states divide into two distinct stages. The first include closed-eye patterns, phosphenes and form-constants which, as Lewis-Williams has previously shown, map closely onto both San and Palaeolithic cave art. These evolve into a second stage of visions, which present iconic and symbolic content. The first stage is neurologically based and identical across all cultures; the second, crucially, is interpreted differently in different cultures. Besides posing serious problems for the Jungian assertion that 'archetypes' are culturally universal, this analysis also suggests that cave art may be a depiction not of real objects but of patterns and visions 'seen' on the rock walls in altered states of consciousness and depicted according to a pre-existing cultural scheme.

www.erowid.org...

Wish there was a less rocky path, but it is what it is. Most people dismiss these notions out of hand as meaningless twaddle. I don't, but the research is novel and spotty at best.

What are the visuals about though? Is it that we are looking through the eyes of god and cant comprehend the information in there? Is is like the base coat of our waking reality, what is it?

reply to post by Majestic23


To me, we cannot trust anything that derives from measurements based on human consciousness. Human consciousness is, in its very essence, a hallucination. It emanates from the same chemicals people take to hallucinate.

I think that you can include music in this debate, as well. If you have never been highly intoxicated at a loud concert, you may not understand. I had one concert where what I experienced certainly was not the concert, although I was there the entire time. It was the last 1/3 that was kind of like "reality 2.0". Hard to explain...but I believe entrainment using sound is an equally powerful "drug".

And it seems that the shaman knew this, as the repetitive drum sound was a major part of their ritual.

ETA: i am a concert junkie because of this. Been awhile since the last one (this past April), but with luck, i will be seeing Disturbed and Korn in February. WOOT!

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Some peoples minds are more sensitive to resonance than others. If I stare at some of these quilts long enough it makes me want to develop an ether theory for the universe. That may be why so many meditation practices are best done in quiet places with limited sensory input?

Originally posted by Majestic23
What are the visuals about though? Is it that we are looking through the eyes of god and cant comprehend the information in there? Is is like the base coat of our waking reality, what is it?

On what they're about: the most fascinating aspect of these minor hallucinations is the fact that much of humanity has similar experiences with them. They range from the most common effects (like the colours we see when we rub our eyes in a dark room) to the most strange (as in when mountain climbers or marathon runners exhaust themselves).

The phosphenes and entoptics talked about are something I can view right now, if I wanted to, but the most meaningful are a response to extreme situations, as in sensory deprevation, fasting and physically challenging activities of all sorts taken to the very edge of our capabilities, like dancing for days.

Some hallucinations become very real, in that they seem to be actual entities which assist in helping you or confuse you even further... whatever the case, whoever you are, push yourself long enough, and you'll experience them firsthand without any chemical short-cuts.

On the God concept:

The larger question is whether humanity conceives God through visions or whether God conceived humanity instead. I prefer the middle ground where we became aware of God through these visions after God conceived the universe into existence (including us).

On reality:

We call what we see reality, but when we see something that doesn't fit, we discard it as useless. This is why we dismiss dreams on awakening, dismiss ghosts out of hand, chuckle at those who say they were abducted by aliens and generally stick to only what we WANT to see.

By doing the opposite and opening our minds to all possibilities, we are able to widen the field of our reality,

ok, here is an example of a typical phosphene for me. I just used a random image for the background, to put context to how it can disrupt my field of vision.

It is usually this amorphous blob, multicolored using the same colors/tones in the blob on this image. But the colors move in a pulsing fashion either inwards or outwards (depends). and the blob will morph and change shape slowly over time.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f8d314be841a.jpg[/atsimg]

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Yup... that's very close to the 'boat' that I see. It grows and moves slowly from one side to another in my field of vision (both eyes, because it doesn't disappear when I cover an eye) and sometimes gets in the way of what I'm looking at (like reading text in a book).

When that happens, I just close my eyes and watch the pretty colours flux until it moves off to the side.

The effect lasts about a half hour before it fades completely and happens (guessing) about 6 times a year, usually when I'm tired.

reply to post by masqua


that is pretty similar to me...but i see them all the time to a far lesser degree. i will try to make something to show you later. but it is like a dimly glowing mist at the bottom and edge of my field of vision. if i close my eyes, i can see it all the time. if they are open, the "noise" of the true sensory input overpowers it completely.

This is kind of why what Ingo Swann says rings so true to me. I have experienced these subtle senses such as this.

I am going to ask some other folks i know. see if i can get some data. i think this is just something that everyone has to varying degrees, but no one discusses.

something else that happens is that somewhere in my brain it acts like i am crosseyed. My eyes don't actually cross (my wife has checked countless times for me), but it FEELS like my eyes are crossing. Physically it feels like it, and my vision follows suit.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Majestic23

 

To me, we cannot trust anything that derives from measurements based on human consciousness. Human consciousness is, in its very essence, a hallucination. It emanates from the same chemicals people take to hallucinate.

Ok, so all these things that shamen do is to lead to the production of "spirit molecule" chemicals which our own body produces.

So what does the spirit molecule do exactly?

What would happen say..........everybody starts producing enormous amounts and the whole world started astral tripping. Would our "shared reality/hallucination" simply cease to exist?

Originally posted by masqua

We call what we see reality, but when we see something that doesn't fit, we discard it as useless. This is why we dismiss dreams on awakening, dismiss ghosts out of hand, chuckle at those who say they were abducted by aliens and generally stick to only what we WANT to see.

By doing the opposite and opening our minds to all possibilities, we are able to widen the field of our reality,

edit on 5/12/10 by masqua because: bb code

So lets say we die or move off this waking realm with the same level of gnosis as a quality shaman. Would we experience all visual perception in terms of phosphenes until we manifest a new more solid visual realm?

A strange occourance happened when I was coming out of a trance and I realised the environment I was seeing was made out of "bits" of my real world vision. Like a strange jigsaw puzzle that rapidly rearranged itself into normality as I span out of the trance.

I was just on the phone when a large phosphene appeared. It was only in my left eye (i am functionally blind in my left eye, not being able to make out finite details of anything, merely regions of color and vague shape). I was able to see it very clearly, a bright amorphous blob. It slowly began to morph into something resembling a crown or a heart (actual heart, with arteries sticking out of the top).

It faded very quickly, but then became a negative image of itself, with the bright blob being black, with a glow around its outside.

I then noticed that as my wife changed the channel, it disappeared when it was dark in between channels (my bedroom is darkdarkdarkdark, with zero light coming in and dark purple walls).

it seems that this required the presence of light to be seen.

Another thing, as usual it started in the edge of my field of vision, and started to wander. It didn't wander far, staying mostly in the lower right corner of my left eye.