Why doesn't ATS investigate anything anymore?

I have been with ATS for a number of years now. In that time I been a scholar on three diferent Research projects. Back when I first stared under the old screen name ghost, ATS was a very different forum then it is today. The origional ATS had more researchers, and a lighter atmoshere. We worked together to study things we found and check each other's finding. ATS was also a place where the skeptic wasn't an outcast. Skeptics were the people who helped keep us grounded and made sure we didn't run wild with ideas. Any time someone made a really remakable claim, two or more people would check it out and question the details. This what how we stayed grounded in reality.

Now, with the age of Conspiracy Masters, ATS has lost that internal check. Sometimes it seems as if Anything goes, as long as it's popular:

If it's Secret, it Must Be a Conspiracy! is the Majority view on ATS. Noone seems to understand anymore that there are some things that are secret for a good reason, like the blueprints for a nuclear bomb (If you can't see why they should NOT be public, you missing the point)!

Some people have been given an almost "God-Like" status. People think this if they say it, it Must be true! Disagreeing with the "Gods of Cospiracy" is treated like teason or something. B.T.W. Why exactlly are people worsipping fellow ATS members as if they are soome kind of god?

We now have groups of members who don't seem to think for themselves, instead they follow famous members of ATS around all day doing this:

As oif that isn't bad enough, we are fighting the first Cyber war right here on ATS! If you don't believe it, go see some of the DAILY Attacks launched against people words like Liar, and Troll

What kind on BS are we promoting here?

One time, the mods used to rain in the madness. Now there seems to be a hands-off policy when it comes to a select few who are the "Chosen Ones" of ATS. Now you can post about ringing the moon like a bell and noone gives it a second look!

Does ATS no Longer have a mission of Denying Ignorance? Is truth now defined by Popularity Polls?

Seeing ATS let itself go like that really makes me want to

When will our mods reign in the rampid Ignorance and hostility that spreads across ATS like a sickness, devoring all the truth and common sense in it's path?

I'd really like a reason to applaud the ATS Fourm Staff, but latly, they haven't done a lot to deserve it! They're busy giving away stars instead of inforcing the rules.

Is ATS planning to drop it most coveted search for truth in favor of popularity? :-(

I'M APPEALING TO THE POWERS THAT BE PLEASE BRING BACK THE ABOVE TOP SECRET WE ONCE HAD!

I want a reson to wave this sign: but they have to EARN IT!

Bring back the ATS we had years ago!

Tim

[edit on 5/24/2007 by Ghost01]

Yeah. ATS has become popularity focused. The new stars rating system, and conspiracy masters with its implied bias are all steps down that path. I liked it when every member was equal, and there was no perceived hierarchy. I know that this has turned many good individuals off. I don't know about the reduction in skepticism. Seems most threads are flame wars nowadays.

Thanks for the post.

I concur!

I've not been here as long as some of the other members, but I've been here long enough to notice the change from a conspiracy themed, intellectual message board into a social network where we discuss conspiracies.

I don't think you could of possibly had worse timing on your rant.

I too, as many others, feel the same way at times. We may go a few weeks with a lot of regurgitated threads, or a few others that are "way out there". So at times, our membership may begin to be painted in a not too pleasant light. However, the recent "I Helped The U.S. Army Plan The 9/11 Attacks" has reinforced how amazing this membership is, more than any of us can comprehend. It a matter of three lowly pages, this amazing story was quickly revealed to be a hoax. This is something the staff have been looking into for a few days, and none of us were able to prove what this really was. However, given a few hours, the membership picked it apart like a pack of savage dogs.

Nobody will ever tell me that the membership of Above Top Secret is not the greatest anywhere, at any given time.

Originally posted by SteveR
I liked it when every member was equal, and there was no perceived hierarchy.

And when was this? How has this changed? Are some members created "more equal" than others? Does every member not have the ability to become a Conspiracy Master? What about the AbovePolitics.com 2007 Elections for President of the United States that you yourself are partaking in?

Nobody is "more equal" than others, and if anyone was to talk to any staff member for any length of time, you would quickly understand that every member is upheld to the same standards.

There is no hierarchy.

Originally posted by Ghost01
One time, the mods used to rain in the madness. Now there seems to be a hands-off policy when it comes to a select few who are the "Chosen Ones" of ATS.

So, you want the staff to intervene on members that you disagree with? So you want Above Top Secret to be like every other board out there? Personally, I love that ATS permits all walks of life and nobody is infringed on because they go against the status quo. Some members need to understand that one man's ignorance is another man's brilliance.

A member may talk of paranormal activity in their life, that some members see as completely ridiculous. But who are we to say that they are making it up? Unless it can be proven, why should we infringe on their right to discuss these issues?

Fortunately for everyone, the Terms And Conditions Of Use govern these boards, and not the opinion of each and every staff member. I'm not a big UFO guy, so some of those threads are a little absurd to me. I admit that. But that doesn't mean I'm inclined to prevent any member from discussing it. My opinion on what is, and is not acceptable, well that is completely moot. The Terms And Conditions Of Use do the speaking for us, and we merely enforce the standard that the Amigo's have laid out for us.

Originally posted by Ghost01
I'd really like a reason to applaud the ATS Fourm Staff, but latly, they haven't done a lot to deserve it! They're busy giving away stars instead of inforcing the rules.

A few weeks ago, I would give you the age old spiel about how the staff does this, and the staff does that. But now that I've had the opportunity to serve on that staff, I completely resent this statement. Not because it ignores the efforts of me personally, but because it ignores the efforts of my fellow staffers. We have a staff here that work their damn ass off every day to keep this board running as great as it does. The Amigo's are the brilliance behind this place, but the team of Moderators/Super Moderators we have here are second to noone.

Just because you don't see it, it doesn't mean it isn't there. Every post, every thread, every member that ruffles any feathers, an insane about of discussion is put forth on determining the proper course of action.

If you see me taking action against any member, you can bet your ass that I've discussed this at great length with the team before ever taking a punitive measure with any member.

Our staff deserves the benefit of the doubt. So does our membership.




Edit: grammar


[edit on 24-5-2007 by chissler]

get to investigating man.

You be a part of ATS.

Originally posted by Ghost01
They're busy giving away stars instead of inforcing the rules.

Everyone gives out stars, not just the Staff. And they look like they are inforcing the rules to me.

Originally posted by chissler
and if anyone was to talk to any staff member for any length of time, you would quickly understand that every member is upheld to the same standards.

Obviously you have mistaken my post. I am not inclined to elaborate however, since your tone is turning this into more of an argument than a discussion. I am quite sure I "understand", thank you very much. My opinion is just as valid as yours.

Being staff, you should hold yourself to a higher standard when conversing with us. And for the record, I have spoken to staff members, including yourself, and received prompt and courteous replies. No problem there.

[edit on 24/5/07 by SteveR]

Originally posted by SteveR
Obviously you have mistaken my post. I am not inclined to elaborate however, since your tone is turning this into more of an argument than a discussion. I am quite sure I "understand", thank you very much.

Because he disagreed and posted a counter-point, you label it an "argument" and claim what exactly? That you only take part in a discussion on your own terms, following rules that you set yourself?

I suppose we "understand" too.

My opinion is just as valid as yours.

By this statement, I really don't think you actually read his post at all. He was actually giving you the benefit of speaking very candidly about what takes place behind the scenes from the perspective of a member who recently was asked to join the staff.

I don't believe he ever said your opinion was less valid at all.

Being staff, you should hold yourself to a higher standard when conversing with us. And for the record, I have spoken to staff members, including yourself, and received prompt and courteous replies. No problem there.

Ahhh, no here comes the "dig" in the discussion. This whole thread is people complaining that they want equality to this percieved social clique situation. A staff member posts, but look out...he should be following this higher standard that you all claim you don't want in the first place. What kind of double-standard is that?

The second part of your statement is just mumbo-jumbo designed to make his reply to look wasn't courteous or something.

Bah

He told you his opinion and didn't temper it just like I am. We may be staff, but we're allowed opinions just the same as you and that makes us equal. Isn't that what this is about?

And anyone can submit to be a Conspiracy Master. You all realize that right?

[rant]

Gee, I wonder what "Conspiracy Master" in particular this is a whine about?

You DON'T want me to present posts you made wherein you are crying about how much you believed in said CM and then when said CM's take or explanation on something disagreed with yours or you simply couldn't believe it, you went on a whinge mate.

You see that's the difference between GENUINE CRITICAL THOUGHT and everything else. I, personally don't want to believe ANYTHING. I want to KNOW IT. So, until I KNOW it it's just more information...

I have a news flash for everyone in this thread lamenting the loss of the "good old days" (especially those who have only been here a year or two) ...

Those "good old days" are NO DIFFERENT than today, except in YOUR MIND. Our stance has NOT CHANGED ONE BIT. ATS has NO OPINION, NO "DIRECTIVE", NO STANCE, it is a place for the CIVIL. MATURE and FREE (within the confines of the TAC) exchange of ideas, opinions and INFORMATION.

What has changed is the number of people getting involved. The number of people who have spent LIFE TIMES investigating things you are interested in.

The PROBLEM appears to be that when these folks who have spent LIFE TIMES disagree with YOUR notions you can't seem to handle "agreeing to disagree" without being SNIDE.

Well that's just BLOODY TOUGH!

PITIFUL.

[/rant]

Springer...

Because he disagreed and posted a counter-point, you label it an "argument" and claim what exactly? That you only take part in a discussion on your own terms, following rules that you set yourself?

Chissler had no intention of discussing my opinion. His reply to me consisted of defensive questioning, an intolerance to the validity of my opinion, and telling me that I do not understand what I am talking about. Which I find quite superior and demeaning. He then proceeded to sign his message with . There was absolutely no reason to reply since he had no desire to hear or discuss anything I had to say.. that much is obvious Zedd. You jumped on this thread aswell to defend your team mate and brought your fellow staff along too. Another act to suppress opinions?

You DON'T want me to present posts you made wherein you are crying about how much you believed in said CM and then when said CM's take or explanation on something disagreed with yours or you simply couldn't believe it, you went on a whinge mate.

Crying and whining huh.

I had simply mentioned in an earlier post that CM is a source for populism and elitism. It is. If you cannot take my opinions onboard without insulting them from your impervious position then what point is constructive criticism on ATS?

The whole moon thread you threatened to shut down, is a long forgotten memory. At least to me. . JL being a CM and having his own forum came after you capitulated with him. They were not privledges he had at the time. The disagreements you speak of are not my business, you are mistaken to assume I have publically disagreed or challenged anything JL said on the forum.

That being said, the sheer defensiveness coming from moderators in response to feedback is rather unfortunate. I think, being executive vice presidents, moderators, and administrators, one would expect a higher degree of professionalism.. or at least civility on a par with what others have provided. From your positions I see that is not necessary.

My mistake for providing my opinions, right? After being here for almost two years. I take it from the responses, you would like us to shut up, and not let slip anything but a good word.. No problem, then.

Go ATS! ATS is the best forum out there! I raise a glass of nonalcoholic beverage for you mods and admins for your hard work, thanks for making this site so great ATS never gets boring

I've learned a lot here on ATS, its like a giant book full of information

Originally posted by SteveR
Obviously you have mistaken my post. I am not inclined to elaborate however, since your tone is turning this into more of an argument than a discussion. I am quite sure I "understand", thank you very much. My opinion is just as valid as yours.

It's obvious you have mistaken my post. 99% of my post was directed at the author of this thread, not you.

Originally posted by SteveR
Being staff, you should hold yourself to a higher standard when conversing with us.

What about everyone being equal? But in the same breath, I do hold myself to a higher standard and I would be the first to apologize to any member if I felt for one second that I acted inappropriately. I have before, and I have apologized. Those that I have crossed paths with will account for that.

Originally posted by SteveR
And for the record, I have spoken to staff members, including yourself, and received prompt and courteous replies. No problem there.

I always reply to a u2u immediately and do everything I can to be absolutely courteous.. even when they do not deserve it. I have, and always have, nothing but the utmost respect for you as a member. Frankly, I think this is nothing more than a misconception as you believe my post was directed at you.. when in actuality, it was intended towards Ghost01.

Originally posted by SteveR
Chissler had no intention of discussing my opinion. His reply to me consisted of defensive questioning, an intolerance to the validity of my opinion, and telling me that I do not understand what I am talking about.

Let's discuss.

Where? Where did I say that you did not know what you are talking about or insinuate that your opinion is invalid?

Originally posted by SteveR
Which I find quite superior and demeaning. He then proceeded to sign his message with

.

None of which was intended towards you personally. If you reread my post, I hope that you can understand this.

Originally posted by SteveR
There was absolutely no reason to reply since he had no desire to hear or discuss anything I had to say.. that much is obvious Zedd.

Your assumptions are obvious?

Originally posted by SteveR
You jumped on this thread aswell to defend your team mate and brought your fellow staff along too. Another act to suppress opinions?

Suppress opinions? These are completely baseless remarks.

Originally posted by SteveR
That being said, the sheer defensiveness coming from moderators in response to feedback is rather unfortunate. I think, being executive vice presidents, moderators, and administrators, one would expect a higher degree of professionalism.. or at least civility on a par with what others have provided. From your positions I see that is not necessary.

100% agreed. The staff needs to carry themselves with a degree of professionalism at all times. The thing is, we do. The staff can disagree on many things, but one thing we all agree on is a tremendous love for this community and this way of life that we call Above Top Secret. When members, such as Ghost01, create a thread making some of the comments he made, the staff are going to speak up. We are members too, and we do have opinions. None of us have broken any rules, but if someone is going to insult us, we are going to defend our own. I'm not saying you've insulted me, or anyone else. But some of what was said in the opening post of this thread, I found quite offensive. I said what I said in an attempt to defend my fellow staffers.

Take a look at this from our perspective Steve. Someone comes into your house and bashes you up one side and down the other. Makes baseless claims and insults the staff on how they do business. You then expect us to come in and be all chummy? No. I voiced my opinion on the matter that may not have been filtered for brotherly love.

You speak of how unprofessional the staff is, but I think that is sour grapes my friend. We've chatted before, and we will chat again.. and outside of this little "scuffle".. I know you respect our staff and you do feel that we carry ourselves professionally. The problem here is, you believe I've stepped over the line with respect to how I've responded to you. But the thing is, I was responding to Ghost01, and not you. With that in mind, I hope you feel differently about much of what you have said here. I for one completely understand and may have said some of the same if I thought someone personally insulted me for no reason. So there are no hard feelings.. but please do understand that I was not directing my post towards you. One part was, but after that, it was all Ghost01.

Looking forward to your reply.



[edit on 25-5-2007 by chissler]

Originally posted by SteveR
Chissler had no intention of discussing my opinion. His reply to me consisted of defensive questioning, an intolerance to the validity of my opinion, and telling me that I do not understand what I am talking about.

I think you read a whole lot into his post that wasn't there. I don't recall a double-thumbs down meaning a refusal to discuss the issue.

Here, maybe this will help...let's talk.

You jumped on this thread aswell to defend your team mate and brought your fellow staff along too. Another act to suppress opinions?

Actually, I read this thread much earlier in the day and didn't get a chance to post. Granted, my comments were directed at you, but am I not allowed to discuss this matter either?

I've never told people what to say, I didn't hand out warnings, I didn't edit comments, and I didn't trash this thread...so how exactly was I acting to suppress opinions? The thread is still here, correct? People are still saying what they want, correct?

I thought the subject was about percieved popularity and the staff not doing as good a job as they used to.

All I can say is we all try. We're all human. ATS has grown and we all don't get a chance to see every post, so members can help out too you know. If you see something...alert us via the complaints form.

After all...is the idea here "community" or not? If you percieve someone to have a greater opinion, perhaps they've been here for years and put a lot of time into posting, hence...they are well known. I myself created an entire mini-web site dedicated to helping new members. I started it when I was a member myself.

I didn't ask for a pat on the back or feel like I was any less of a member. It was never about popularity...simply my own desire to create, to inspire, and to help. Are any of you saying that all of your posting here is all about making friends and being popular? Plenty of times I've said things that were not popular, but I won't mix words to play any games. People like me or they don't...it doesn't change who I am.

It's called self-esteem for a reason.

Alarming and majestic post. You hit the nail on the head for how the majority of us intellectual innocents feel about the evolving powers that be here on ATS, and with the follow ups of the moderators and admins, and their tones of voice and insinuating smiley faces and thumbs down remarks, just goes to show that it is not only some snide members that are causing an uncivil ruckus, but also those in charge that are supposed to be mature and keep the peace.

I think we all need to be more responsible with our actions and our treatment of each other.

Denying the real problems will only cause more.

I don't mean to attack any one, but I have also not been receiving such fantastic nor fair management here on ATS. I am not condemning any or all the mods, only asking that we do a better job. Questioning the big dog conspiracy masters/celebrities is obviously a no-no and puts you at a disadvantage from the start, they provoke you through their snide remarks and offending personalities, and when you reply you are hit with a warning or some type of vicious attack by the completely ignorant cult like following. This cult like following only exists because of the celebrity status, the seemingly unpenetrable attitudes and status of these celebrities appears to be Godly, therefore the weak minded follow them and defend them as the celebrities defend the weak minded. It's like a sick symbiotic relationship. Without the ignorant followers to disrupt any real investigative work the celebrity would quickly be disproved, and without the celebrity also backing the ignorant followers, the followers would quickly stop following; a miniature ministry. Am I over-exaggerating? No. It's clear as day and many are beginning to see it, and it is starting to bother all of us who are really trying to get some thing done.

I love ATS, but it hurts me watching it turn in to what it is turning in to. When some one or some thing is proved wrong or incredible, the thread is closed. When this happens with ATS masters/celebrities, the thread is allowed to live long and the awesome points made are obstructed by personal attacks and purpose full miss direction by the upset followers and/or the master/celebrity them self.

I hope some thing is done about this and the moderators at least admit that this type of behavior is taking place before scoffing at and degenerating user feed back.

This web site and life its self should be about being treated equally, it should not be based on popular opinion, time put in to the web site, or the amount of friends made. Honesty is honesty and respect is respect, both are earned and subject to change at any time do to treatment and should not be given a benefit of a doubt just because of any type of status.

Particular unnamed (for FEAR of being banned or warned) celebrities and masters are continuously making snide remarks and false accusations. These members are causing a ripple effect in the amenity of this web site and its users. These particular celebrities/masters have completely began to ruin this web site, that is not my opinion, that is a fact. They are put in a position of examplary action and perpetually fail to keep any type of direct and forward civility when their outrageous and downright stupidly ignorant (and I can say this as fact and not as a 'snide remark' because they've been proven wrong more than once) claims are questioned and penetrated at the core of their megalomaniacal and disinformist intents and purposes.

[edit on 25-5-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

I agree completely

I've written a few threads that I really researched hard. I usually get one or two good jobs, and a lot of people cracking on me. My hope with the threads that others would join up and add stuff of their own to make it better, these threads are usually ignored.

There are few "Scholars" on this site anymore. Everytime I've talked with someone about a research project, I've never heard anymore about it. The last was about 3 months ago.

This site feels slightly corrupted by the need to get more and more people to see the commercials.

[edit on 25-5-2007 by Royal76]

Oh the drama.... must be a Holiday...

Originally posted by chissler

Originally posted by Ghost01
One time, the mods used to rain in the madness. Now there seems to be a hands-off policy when it comes to a select few who are the "Chosen Ones" of ATS.

So, you want the staff to intervene on members that you disagree with? So you want Above Top Secret to be like every other board out there?

I said Nothing of the sort! I believe in working out my own differences. What I was complaining about is that some people seem to be allowed to engage in personal attacks on others, and nothing is said, but if you fire back at these people, you'll get busted faster than you can reply. Some people get publicly repremanded for things others seem free to get away with.

ATS needs to be straigh forward and fair about enforcing the rules with Everyone!

Tim

I do see a lot of personal attacks on ATS, but for the most part I still find threads where people are doing a good amount of research. You are right to some respect about the conspiracy posts. Many are not interesting to me, but thats what makes this place great. It allows the highly imaginative minds a place to share their thoughts regardless of how silly they may seem to you or me.

I appreciate when someone has a different viewpoint and intelligently expresses their side of the story without personal attacks. I often add those with different viewpoints to my friends list here on ATS. I like to hear different opinions, even if I don't agree with them. Its all in how you express yourself and the research and facts you use to back your viewpoint.

As a recent member here, I must say that I have never experienced such a great forum.

Yes, there may be some that have a "beef" with certain aspects, but on the whole, I think things go surprisingly smoothly.

I rarely see discussions turning to arguments, and if harsh words are used, it doesn't take long for things to sort themselves out.

No thread I have read with personal verbal attacks lasts more than a few posts. The air is cleared and things go on. This, I think, is all part of the process involved in people denying ingorance. Their own and others, and can sometimes even benefit all involved with further information as to the different views on a subject and the people involved. A necessary evil!

Personally, when I feel I am wrong, I seek education and enlightenment from other ATSers, not revenge through personal attacks or rants where rants should not be.

I do believe however, that a seperate forum/thread should be created for hoaxes and debunkings to show ATSers the methods and approaches involved and to promote the necessary processes. I think it would reinforce the enlightenment of why we are "denying ignorance". A great source of reference for those searching to uncover truths and an excellent place to help "hone" those skills. I don't think there is any single place reserved for such purposes on this site?.....Yet!

from ghost1:
Some people have been given an almost "God-Like" status. People think this if they say it, it Must be true! Disagreeing with the "Gods of Cospiracy" is treated like teason or something. B.T.W. Why exactlly are people worsipping fellow ATS members as if they are soome kind of god?

Not quite true in my opinion, for every "worshipper" there is an "atheist". Takes all sorts.

from ghost1:
We now have groups of members who don't seem to think for themselves, instead they follow famous members of ATS around all day doing this:

Nothing wrong with that. If the "followers" can learn at least ONE thing from these people, this is not a bad thing.

from Springer:
You see that's the difference between GENUINE CRITICAL THOUGHT and everything else. I, personally don't want to believe ANYTHING. I want to KNOW IT. So, until I KNOW it it's just more information...

Absolutely right, the only thing I KNOW, is that I know NOTHING!

So good rant "ghost1", you are obviously a smart character and I hope you will keep up the good fight.

Onward, upward, inward and outward..........................

Originally posted by nerbot

Nothing wrong with that. If the "followers" can learn at least ONE thing from these people, this is not a bad thing.

That is the point, they aren't learning any thing in the way of intellect and civility except for lies and basically empty speculation when it comes to evidence. What they are learning is how to be arrogant and mean to any one that should ever oppose them, and in one certain case the ability to say any thing and every thing that they want to ( as far as snide goes ) as long as they ignorantly try to twist the definitions of the words. Oh, and not to be too direct, but how the entirety of life works, how all Humans think and act (we no longer have choice according to this person), what to do with life, what to say, how to act, etc. all because of some fake and unevidential experience backed up by name calling, tight moderation, and more fake and unevidential claims (that have been proven wrong more than once).

Absolutely right, the only thing I KNOW, is that I know NOTHING!

Do you truly? Or is that just some thing you say to copy a great mind from the past. Saying you know nothing is dangerous if you don't truly know what it is or how it works.