How Can you prove that God exists or not exist

Originally posted by JessicaS
At the end of the day, if you don't pray at all.. and I pray a lot, does it matter?

yes, it does. will you indoctrinate your children into prayer? will you tell them that religion is the source of morality? will you further mentally abuse them in such a fashion?

To clarify a few points: The person asserting a position has the task of proving that position. A person who declares there is a god is responsible for giving proof for that assertion. Similarly, the person who asserts that there is no god is stuck with the job of proving that there is no god.

However, the majority of atheists are happy not bothering with the topic at all. That is, until a theist makes statements that are based on his belief in god's existence. For example, "You can't be moral unless you believe in god." A moral atheist has to challenge that statement.

The second point is the idea that a metaphysical realm exists. By definition meta-physical means outside the physical world. There's no way we can prove or disprove it because we cannot observe it.

Philosophers say such assertions fail the falsification test. That is, they cannot ever be shown to be be false, no matter what possible conditions we can think of. Such statements are considered meaningless. There can be no rational argument for or against them.

The third point is often defined as Occam's Razor. Essentially, it says don't clutter up any explanation of how something works by adding ideas that don't contribute to the solution. People have worked on figuring out how the real world functions ever since there were humans. They were and we are all scientists of a sort. Adding Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy or God to our explanations of how the real world works doesn't contribute to our understanding of how it functions, so it's inefficient to bother adding those unnecessary concepts.

Most atheists don't declare that there IS NO GOD. Rather, they just don't see the value or necessity of postulating the existence of something that doesn't contribute to our understanding of how the world works.

Occam

occam, i owe you a way above. excellent contribution there, 5 stars.

that's more of what we need.

Sorry Occam, I haven't read your post yet... I just came on to answer a quick question. I will read it after this.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

yes, it does. will you indoctrinate your children into prayer? will you tell them that religion is the source of morality? will you further mentally abuse them in such a fashion?

No, I will not. I don't believe forcing God on to anyone. I won't force them to church, I won't make them get involved in my personal relationship with God. You can use other things to teach your children morality than God.

I don't attend a church, I believe in private prayer. I have children religious books and non-religious ones. I let my son choose what book we read out of, and sometimes it is the children's bible. Sometimes it's Tomas the Train. When he's old enough to make the decision on God, then he and I will discuss it. I am not going to force him to do the things I was forced to do as a child. I don't see the point.

So, as it goes, at the end of the day, my relationship with God is a personal one. One I don't force on anyone around me. I think it's a personal choice we all have to make and live with.

JessicaS, you're taking a healthy stance on religion... unfortunately you're in an underwheling minority of people who believe in god.

Jrssica, it sounds as if you are doing a much better job of raising your children than most. However, you might want to consider what I think of as a small misconception.

As you said, you have both religious and non-religious books available for them. The problem is that one could assign all books one of three categories: Pro-religion, neutral, and anti-religion. If you have only pro-religion (the bible) and neutral books then that's not balance.

It's sort of like having a guy give a speech on household finance in which he mentions that women are nice, but not too bright, beautiful, but too emotional, and similar four or five times, but also offers quite a bit of good information about personal finance. If the women challenge him, he may say, "Well, I was giving a balanced talk. I only put down women ten percent of the time. 90% of the time I didn't put them down at all."

I don't know if there are any children's books that focus on the secular views of the world, but you might at least mention that, just as everyone recognizes the other books are fiction and mythology, there are many people who enjoy the bible as fiction and think it's mythology.

That way, the kids can understand that there can be different views and beliefs, which is a great concept toward maturity no matter what the subject is.

Occam

Madness,

Yes, I know I'm in the minority. I wish more people realized that the belief in God is something that helps contribute to wars. My god isn't better than anyone else's god, and my belief in god isn't any better than your disbelief in god.

Occam,

That's the catch, as far as I know, they don't offer books about there not being a god. Now, my children still believe in creatures like the easter bunny, santa clause and tooth fairy. It's the magic of early childhood. I am not about to burst those bubbles just yet... as to my fond memories with those beliefs and hopes. When my children get to be of age of disbelief, then i will explain how some people see it as myths. Right now, I think that most of it is just stories for them to listen to, being their to young to know there isn't a real talking train or a real santa clause.

All will happen in good time though. No worries.

No really, Deskartes could not prove that he exists.
He started the book by saying how do we know that reality is when we are awake and not when we are asllep.
then he proved that all senses are short of giving proof.
Finally he could prove that God does exist but he could not prove that he exists, after a long thinking he said that may be because I am thinking about this topic (if he exists or not) then he probably exists. He did not prove it, but it gave him some closure.
Now the question remains what worth a proof if few years the premise of the that proof becomes null and wrong. and what is the use of a proof if you can not prove you exist.
The only way to accept God is by trusting a prophet ( you can believe the prophet or not, that is all the choice you have which is a good choice still because you still have a choice.
But then why should we not believe in prophets? what if they were right the prophets. all prophets from Enoch to Moah to Abraham and many others said the same thing, how can they all be liars???
what did they get??

hmm, may be some proof:


god is all knowing, all that you know from inside yourself is because of Him.

still, another instance.


if there would be performed miracles in front of you, would you say it is because of God?

In answer to your first post, that is not proof, that is a belief.

In answer to your second, one person's miracle is another person's as-yet-unexplained scientifically describable event.

So, no, you haven't proven god exists.

laughing out loud, this can't be rejected!!
hah, I don't know, I found the first statement ot be quite correct and true.

what is your perspective on God, If i don't know yours I can't give proof to you. What do you think that is God?

how can one give proof if god himself is uncomprehensible, yet understandable in his ways.

this discussion seems to be endless? not!

[edit on 27-5-2007 by etherical waterwave]

My take on god? There is none.

The universe is wonderful enough without having some guy in the sky responsible for it.

If the universe is too complex to have created itself so that it needs a creator, then who created the creator?

If god has always been there, why not just accept that the universe has always been there? Why add an extra level of complexity?

IMO, there is nothing anyone can say that will prove god exists. Because it's all just word play.

What is wrong with just accepting what DOES exist and can be seen/touched/felt with our physical bodies? Why add supernatural, unverifiable nonsense on top of it?

Why add supernatural, unverifiable nonsense on top of it?


because there is, but I do not like to see it as nonsense.. this supernatural, this untouchable!

A rational response to the supernatural is to see it as nonsense. It is unverifiable, and therefore not scientific.

It cannot be proven except through verbal sleight of hand. Therefore, in my own opinion, it is nonsense.

I don't believe in Santa Claus, the Eostre Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy, either, but hundreds of thousands of children do, and for the same reasons others believe in god. It makes them feel better. But it doesn't make them, or god, real.

I''m glad you find comfort in a god concept. For me, it's just cluttering up an already wonderfully mysterious universe with unnecessary dross.

well, that is not stupid at all.

but rest assured this nonsense is the impact on us.

adding a supernatural level to the world is... well, superfulous. it's doesn't add to our understanding of the universe, in fact it takes it away by saying that there are some things which we just can't understand.

Madness, so you're implying that we all will be able to know everything there is at one point right? Because did you not say this:

in fact it takes it away by saying that there are some things which we just can't understand.

Originally posted by followerofchrist
Madness, so you're implying that we all will be able to know everything there is at one point right? Because did you not say this:

in fact it takes it away by saying that there are some things which we just can't understand.

i meant that in theory we can understand ANYTHING. i never said we WILL understand everything, i just said we can understand ANYTHING.

there is quite a difference between being able to understand anything and understanding everything.

Proof of God in 3 sentences:

1. Design of the Universe and its organisms;
2. Divine Revelation that shows us the attributes of God;
3. Prime mover - in our cause and effect Universe, God was the cause of our existence.

Is that clear enough?