UK Police chief's 'Orwellian State' fears

Police chief's 'Orwellian' fears

news.bbc.co.uk

A senior police officer has said he fears the spread of CCTV cameras is leading to "an Orwellian situation".

Deputy chief constable of Hampshire Ian Readhead said Britain could become a surveillance society with cameras on every street corner.

He told the BBC's Politics Show that CCTV was being used in small towns and villages where crime rates were low.

(visit the link for the full news article)


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[edit on 20/5/07 by stumason]

Now, I have been very vociferous in my arguing against the (mainly US) opinion that the UK is a Police State, but I read this on the BBC so I'd thought I would share it here and open up a discussion.

There are a few articles on the BBC about this subject for you to read.

If even Police fear a "Police State", then that is a good thing, no?

news.bbc.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

I don't think it's a definite and deliberate march towards a police state/the new world order (for me that might be taking paranoia a little too far). To borrow the words of the Information Commissioner (whose job is to watch over institutions to ensure they comply with data protection and freedom of information laws, giving the public access to information they have a right to see and protecting data that should be kept private - names, addresses, bank details etc.) we may be "sleep walking into a surveillance society" or words to that effect. By that I mean we're installing all this surveillance equipment with only one thing on our minds: crime/terrorism. We aren't fully thinking through the other consequences which come from having such a system.

And part of this is down to the public. They ask for these cameras to be installed in some places, they demand that crime is curtailed, they go insane when the government makes a mistake. So the government puts CCTV cameras and other assorted monitoring devices up to try to combat crime. Then it gets shouted at for attacking civil liberties. They can't win, to be honest, since they have to deal with the general public (one of the most fickle and contradictory groups of people you can find anywhere ).

Personally, this does concern me greatly. I don't want to have to have an ID card (and this would put me off voting for a party that supported the issue at the next election), I don't want to be watched wherever I go, I don't want to have my conversations listened to when I'm walking down the street. And I don't want this to happen not because I'm doing something illegal (I'm not, I assure you) but because I am a firm believer in people's right to privacy. It is a basic human right, along with free speech, freedom of/from religion, freedom of movement etc. If you're breaking the law - say you're planning a terrorist attack - then I have no qualms about the security services bugging your phone and following you around. Frankly, you deserve it, since you intend to damage the rights of others. But why treat all the public as criminals when the vast, vast majority are law abiding? There's simply no justification for it.

And don't even consider trotting out the old "If you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to fear" argument out. We have, and you're truly deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Believe it or not, people abuse their authority. Or perhaps the government's definition of 'wrong' is different to everyone else's... maybe they decide to expand this definition at will. Or perhaps it could be taken out of context - let's say I go along to a rehab centre with a friend purely as support to help them settle in. If the CCTV cameras pick that up, how could they know (without asking me why I'm there) that I myself don't have a drug problem? How do they know I'm just going there as support? How long until the police come around searching my home for drugs that aren't there? Things can be taken out of context quite easily.

CCTV is an effective way to prevent crime, and I think it's necessary in some areas. But sometimes the government, local councils and private owners simply go overboard and threaten the liberties and freedoms that brave men and women of previous generations have fought and died to protect. It would be a stain on their memory if we allowed this problem to continue unchecked.

I'm trying to look at this in a generic context - I'm sure some of our friends from across the pond will be able to apply some of my arguments to American society, but obviously it has a bias towards Britain since... hey, that's where I live!

Interesting, UK (and USA) were always regarded as most free countries, respecting free speech and not requiring ID cards and so on. Today both countries are similar to Nazi Germany or going there very fast.

Ste2652 I agree with you entirely. It is not the system that is to be feared and opposed but who has the control and how data is utilised. Not only is this a problem from the perspective of abuses of power, I also object to data being used to construct consumer profiles. It is likely that any form of identity system will involve demographic information, the more complex the data collected and stored the more valuable it will be in the free market. The outcome could be direct marketing gone mad, a bit like in the film Minority Report. There are also the illegal uses to be considered.

Orwell's vision has long been reality and has exceeded his wildest nightmares. Cameras and big brother were only ever part of the problem. Orwell was a visonary, but he is one of many, it is naive to rely on his as the only potential vision of our present and future.

Everytime big brother comes up, I wonder if it is the only science fiction that some people have ever read. Or perhaps they have only watched the film and therefore missed much of the point entirely. Now the majority may not read enough, but you can be damned sure that those in power do. Or they have lackies to do it for them, compiling reports. I know from reading how policy can effect change then I have to assume that they do too. If anyone thinks Orwell offers a bleak vision of the future should try some of the more recent science fiction writers.

John Reid has insisted that before any more laws are passed that infringe on the rights of the individual that clear guideline must be first set. I agree with him and hopefully, he will be given the clout to do this. In the transistion of power, his position in the future Brown government is speculative. As is the general direction that the next two years will take in the Brown government.

What is more worrying to me are the reasons that cameras are being used to fight crime. What happened to tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime? Anti-social and criminal behaviour are not going to be solved by cameras, these are problems that need to be tackled at base level.

Directing resources to monitoring behaviour does just that, it does nothing to change that behaviour. Only a combined approach by all groups within the Justice system will even begin to address the issues. Cameras are only delaying the need for complete change. The only thing that is going to prevent crime is a reliable, effective and just judicial policy. Change needs to be radical and it will be expensive. It only gets more expensive though the longer we delay the inevitable.

Originally posted by 64738
Interesting, UK (and USA) were always regarded as most free countries, respecting free speech and not requiring ID cards and so on.

First, what is your definition of "free", maybe that can be a starting point to a meaningful conversation. Second, the United States has and continues to, respect "free speech" in the same manner that we always have. Though I must admit the public definition of what is and is not acceptable has changed a great deal, much more so than the legal definition. Regarding ID cards however, kind of over simplifying the issue are we not?

Originally posted by 64738
Today both countries are similar to Nazi Germany or going there very fast.

Why do such ignorant statements persists? Do you currently even reside in the US? Both countries are nothing like Nazi Germany, to say so shows at best a lack of historical understating and at worst an insult towards the survivors of the era.

[edit on 20-5-2007 by WestPoint23]

I agree that the situation with the cameras is becoming an invasion of privacy, the fascination with surveillance in the name of security and safety is nothing more than the beginning of a population control.

But we as a the population of this nations are the ones that most questions the true intentions of governments that keep getting more and more into people’s businesses, when governments start to become so restrictive to the people of their nations is a clear sign that the governments is working against the people.

They have plans for the populations and is obvious that they are making sure that they have control when they enforce their plans.

Merseyside police have now just tested a new UAV capable of hovering silently above, watching your every move:

BBC - Police Drone

The UK's first police remote control helicopter has taken off.

Merseyside police are using the "spy drone", fitted with CCTV cameras, mainly for tackling anti-social behaviour and public disorder.

The machine is 1m wide, weighs less than a bag of sugar, and can record images from a height of 500m.

That looks like it may be fun to hit with a potato gun considering its light weight, it would come down easily with something as crude.

Let me tell you why what exists in the UK does not exist on such a scale in the States.Our peaople are #ing nuts. The majority of the middle school through high-school non-wealthy population literally just go around destroying things and stealing # and doing all kinds of wacky stuff. It is not limited to a certain ethnicity, race, or nationality. They go out and just break into cars for joyrides, running over mailboxes, shooting at stuff with guns real or fake, and it happens everynight by tens of thousands if not more all across America.

In many cities with CCTV's you will notice some have been shot out. Many have been shot out in my own city. It proably is not punk anarchists, or over paranoid conspiracy theorists, its just crazy ass kids doing stuff to boast about when they get together at a party or hang out whereever they hang out at.

I know because I used to do that crap, and thank God I got arrested, went through the pain of our judicial system, earned my forgiveness and have rehabilitated myself into a very law abaiding and respectful citizen.

I assure you that their is no shortfall of crazy ass kids who are forcing some municipilaties to abandon expansion their CCTV programs. Frankly I would rather deal with these jits than being watched all dayh anywhere I go. The good part is they eventually grow up.

According to the news clip at BBC there are roughly 20 CCTV cameras within yards of Orwells home... I find that quite fitting really.