Shouldn't

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Wine only comes from the vine. Darkness does not graft in with light. Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

The Father planted all the plants in the garden, even the tree of knowledge of good and evil, end even the vines.

The wine from the vine can be new and sweet or old and intoxicating, but they come from the same vine that God planted.

"Grafting" is something you do with horticulture and burn victims not light and darkness. Darkness is simply the absence of light not a controlling force over light, for the light is greater than the darkness. Even on the darkest day, there is light.

[edit on 20-5-2007 by ben91069]

Originally posted by ben91069

Originally posted by Stormrider
Well then, I am certainly glad that we have you to interpret it for us, since according to you Christianity has had it completely wrong for the last 2000 years.

The disciples and brethren had the truth when Jesus was around, but since the falling away, everyone forgot the true message.

When, precisely, did this, "falling away", take place?

originally posted by stormrider Would you kindly explain where your insight comes from? What is it that makes you think that your "take" on the bible is more valid than what has been believed by billions of, apparently misguided, Christians for millenia?

ben91069 repliedBecause it makes more sense to me than a relgion that has no power of salvation. To claim Jesus saves and then tack on conditional statements makes a mockery of Christ, his sacrifice, God and pretty much every bit of God's word. You are more than welcome to believe what you want to believe, but I will always look to what is true to me.

And there it is! Your real motivation: "Because it makes more sense to me".
At least you had the honesty to admit it.

To claim Jesus saves and not make it conditional would make a mockery of God's sacrifice of His only Begotten; and you seem not to have a clue about God's Word and what it says.

You are welcome to believe anything you want, as well, but at the very least label it for what it is: Ben's word, not God's word.

originally posted by stormrider Well, that makes perfect sense; God would never say what He really , He would instead say the complete opposite of what was really true. After all, He wouldn't want everybody to be able to understand what He really meant; that's why He made sure you ould be around to give us the "real truth"

ben91069 replied It states very clearly that JC speaks in parables to hide information from certain people. So even though you feel God would or should never speak in a cryptic manner, he does so all the time. Also, I am not on ATS to be able to give you the real truth. That is not my intention here. My life's mission is to find God. It has nothing to do currently with making sure you know what I know. If I happen to comment on ATS about a topic, it is no different than me commenting about the proper way to hone a cylinder in an automotive forum.

The people He was "hiding" information from, were the Saducees and Pharisees, the elite Jewish Rabbis and teachers of the time whose own hearts were hardened against Jesus and His claim of being the Messiah. He also explained every parable to His disciples and in turn, through the word, us.

I wish you luck in your mission to "find God", it's sadly apparent that you haven't found Him yet. Or, maybe you have and just decided that He was too demanding for your taste. Well, He is still here and He is still able to save all those who sincerely seek Him. I hope you discover the truth before it's too late.

originally posted by stormrider
But what about all of the hundreds of millions of believers, in what you call a lie? You know, the ones who don't know how to reach you here on ATS. Man, you should really write a book and go on sattelite TV, to make sure the whole world gets the "whole story".


ben91069 replied What about them? The information I speak of is freely available to anyone for the asking. You don't need me to go on a crusade for God. Besides, the whole world does not need the whole story. It is essential that most of the world does not know the whole story right now.

I was being sarcastic. Incredible that you didn't notice. Of course the only one who really needs to know the :whole story" is you, right?

My compliments on your ability to be cryptic; I won't even ask why it's so essential that the world not know the truth. I really don;t care anymore.

[originally posted by stormrider
Who are you referring to, when you say "the way you have a long time ago"?


ben91069 replied Are you not clear on which two people are in this particular dialog?

It would seem that I am not; I thought that the quote above was aimed at WiseSheep since you were replying to his post, but I could be wrong; still I have never believed what you believe in this lifetime. Maybe you mean in a past lifetime; no that wouldn't work either because I don;t believe in reincarnation, do you?

[originally posted bt ben91069 I already quoted the bible where JC explicitly and unconditionally pardons a man with sickness from all sin. Here it is again if you've lost note of it:

Mat 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Jesus, being God, had the authority to forgive individual sins, which He did more than once, but that forgiveness only extended to past sins, thus the usual rejoinder to "go and sin no more".

originally posted by ben91069 Now what part of that do you not understand?

The part where the forgiveness of one sick man from his past sins extends to all other persons who have evr lived or ever would live. For the love of God, man, think about it, if all Jesus had to do to erase all of humanities sins was to say the words, "your sins are forgiven", to one man in all of history, what was the virgin birth, crucifiction and resurrection all about? Just icing on the cake?

originally posted by stomrider
Stop preaching what isn't true and read the last paragraph of the Book of Revelation, about what happens to those who add or detract from what is taught there; Oh yeah!, let me guess, that was not really what He meant either.

ben91069 replied Have I not quoted directly from the bible the verses you've asked for that back up the claim that Jesus taught unconditional forgiveness of sins?

Not by a long shot, my friend; as far as I can see you haven't produced one quote taken in the context of the chapter/verse, etc, that has backed up that claim; but it is a fruitless search, I'm afraid, since it is not recorded anywhere in scripture.

originally posted by ben91069 Yet, you deny that he ever once made that claim and it isn't supported biblically. Organized religion is the ones twisting the bible to into an unholy meaning with connotations that God will throw you into a blazing inferno. My version is much more sympathetic to the human soul and Jesus approved.

Your version, yes well, sadly your version is not endorsed by the Trinity or corrobrated by biblical scholarship or hermaneutics. I am truly sorry that ypu are offended by the concept of a fiery punishment for those who reject God and His Gift of salvation through Christ; unfortunatly, it happens to be what God said is reserved for those people who want to make their own rules and create their own gospel.

Originally posted by ben91069
The Father planted all the plants in the garden

Matthew 13:24-30
24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Originally posted by Stormrider

As is clear to anyone who reads it, Paul is speaking about the relationship between husbands and wives in general and in the Church at Galatia, in particular. He was talking about whether those who had freshly been born again as believers were obligated to remain in a marriage with an unbelieving spouse. This certainly still relates to modern day relationships, but to arbitrarily decide that Paul was talking about Christ as the bridegroom is not backed up by the context of the chapter or anywhere else in his epistle. What you are doing is cherry picking verses you like and assigning meaning to them that was not intended in the original. That is not only poor scholarship it is dishonest and disingenuous.

Not true at all. The words are written to satisfy the majority on the surface but reveal the truth to those it is given. It is not some stretch that I came about Christ being the groom out of thin air. I got it from the NT.

Here you go:

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and th church.
Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Now it may be true that the apostles spoke publicly about topics that were wordly, but they have hidden meanings about what they were really intending to say. The above scripture alludes to this where the author admits he is really talking about the great mystery concerning Christ and the church. There is more text concerning Christ being the groom and the church being the bride, so don't let me stop you from finding it. Just don't tell me there is nothing telling us that they were talking about something else when in fact they were. Consider that your proof that 5:32 admits they were talking of something else in the context of talking about worldy things.

Originally posted by ben91069
The Father planted all the plants in the garden

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Matthew 13:24-30
24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

A fine passage WiseSheep. Notice that this all occurs while the man "sleeps". Do you recall any other things that happen in the bible while man sleeps concerning a creation of sorts, lets say in the book of Genesis? The tares will truly be refined, but that is their purpose. Whomever is wheat or tare is for God to determine. One must be set above the other at the harvest. I care not which one I am, but do care to speak of the truth of God.

Originally posted by The Winged Wombat

I was using the example that you were using! The answer remains the same, substitute any religion you wish - would you want all the religions (all of whom believe that they, and ony they, are right) all trying to convert you to their belief?

The Winged Wombat

I don't mind it at all when people try to convert me. I find it sort of comforting to know that at least somebody cares.

Originally posted by The Winged Wombat
Stormrider,

Returning to your original point. Yes, I can see the Christian view regarding conversion and your personal feeling vis a vis other members of your family.

But, please see the situation from the other side (well any side other than the person who wants to do the converting). How would you feel, personally, if, for instance, every Jew you met tried to convert you to his/her view. Take that analogy a little further and consider that every Muslim might want to convert you as well. Obviously the situation becomes totally intolerable, doesn't it.

First, let's make sure we're both on the same page as far as what witnessing for the Christian is all about. The idea of witnessing is not so much about conversion, as it is about "spreading the good news" of the Gospel. You see, for believers like me, it is good news and why would I not want to share that with family friends and neighbors?; to use an illustration that I believe was in the original post by Herman (correct me if I'm wrong) suppose you had just won the lottery for millions of dollars, wouldn't you want to tell everyone? Well, with Christians, it's a bit different; We beiieve that we have news that is so important to know that not telling everybody about it is actually a sin in God's eyes; keeping that news to ourselves and not telling anyone would be like saying we were ashamed or embarrased to be His children, blithely going about our own lives while those who might have made a decision for Christ, go on sinning and die without hope of seeing heaven. So, not telling is not an option.

What is an option is trying to strong arm people into a conversion experience. Whether anyone actually becomes a Christian is not up to me or anyone else who witnesses, that's up to God to bring about. But we are called to tell the story, to spread the word. Sorry if that infuriates you, but I'm afraid it's not going to change, this side of heaven.:

The Winged Wombat wrote Both Jews and Muslims, among others, are equally convinced that their faith is correct, while I can see your point of view, then I think you should see other people's point of view in the same way.

Oh!, I do, and so do most other Christians; that's why so few actually practice it. No one likes rejection and no one likes to feel they are intruding on someone's space. I get knocks on my door all the time form Jehovah's Witnesses but they donlt generally stay very long once I start poking holes in their theology.

The Winged Wombat wrote From a purely practical perspective, I would observe (athough I don't know why it should necessarily be so) that those people who do try to convert other (regardless of what they are trying to convert them to) become polarised within society as they end up with only people of their own view to talk to. A perfect example would be Amway!

That may or may not be true; I have friends who are believers and I have friends who are not; my non-believing friends know that I am a believer and like me anyway. Fancy that! But I see your point; all I can say is sorry for trying to save your eternal soul.: But I'm not really.

Originally posted by ben91069

Originally posted by Stormrider

As is clear to anyone who reads it, Paul is speaking about the relationship between husbands and wives in general and in the Church at Galatia, in particular. He was talking about whether those who had freshly been born again as believers were obligated to remain in a marriage with an unbelieving spouse. This certainly still relates to modern day relationships, but to arbitrarily decide that Paul was talking about Christ as the bridegroom is not backed up by the context of the chapter or anywhere else in his epistle. What you are doing is cherry picking verses you like and assigning meaning to them that was not intended in the original. That is not only poor scholarship it is dishonest and disingenuous.

Not true at all. The words are written to satisfy the majority on the surface but reveal the truth to those it is given. It is not some stretch that I came about Christ being the groom out of thin air. I got it from the NT.

Here you go:

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and th church.
Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Now it may be true that the apostles spoke publicly about topics that were wordly, but they have hidden meanings about what they were really intending to say. The above scripture alludes to this where the author admits he is really talking about the great mystery concerning Christ and the church. There is more text concerning Christ being the groom and the church being the bride, so don't let me stop you from finding it. Just don't tell me there is nothing telling us that they were talking about something else when in fact they were. Consider that your proof that 5:32 admits they were talking of something else in the context of talking about worldy things.

I was not denying that scripture refers to Christ as the bridegroom and the church as His bride; I was stating that the particular scripture you quoted in 1 Corinthians 7 did not make that connection.

Originally posted by Herman
I don't mind it at all when people try to convert me. I find it sort of comforting to know that at least somebody cares.

but they don't care enough to treat you like an equal. they put themselves in a position of claiming absolute truth and telling you that you are in absolute ignorance of that truth until you acknowledge thier doctrines and dogma.

Originally posted by Stormrider
but make no mistake, I am the one who decided to follow Jesus; I had a choice between continuing on as I had been or changing my path and accepting God's free gift of salvation through Christ. It was not the gift that changed my "destiny", rather it was my acceptance of the gift. Do you see the difference?

No, by definition it was already decided that you chose to believe in Christ. Not to get off topic here, because I want to remind myself and readers that this thread is about should we or shouldn't we try to preach the message to non-believers.

Here is why I feel destiny is dominate (italics mine):

Rom 1:10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.

Paul admits that making a future trip is not a matter of cause and effect but out of his plans even though we would just make plans to do something. Paul concedes otherwise.

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Part of the Lord's prayer showing God's will is/should be precedent.

Mat 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Jesus gives up any thought of his will

1Co 1:1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God and Sosthenes our brother,

God's will chooses us to be called.

The big kicker verse about being chosen or called to God:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Even Ephesians claims we are chosen before the current era.

I could go on and on about what I believe is true. It makes no difference to me if you want to believe in something strange for we all come to the conclusion eventually. If you feel these scriptures are in error that the authors were not convinced that destiny existed, then by all means show me anywhere where the disciples worked according to and acknowledging they followed free-will. I could not find a scripture to support it.

Originally posted by Stormrider
I was not denying that scripture refers to Christ as the bridegroom and the church as His bride; I was stating that the particular scripture you quoted in 1 Corinthians 7 did not make that connection.

Now I wasn't trying to prove everything by one passage, but whatever happened to inference? It is my hope that someday you discover that there is a new story hidden in front of your eyes. I don't mean to come off in any way in opposition to you, for no one who calls on Christ in the next moment can deny him, yet we all fall short in one way or another and we are not called to divide ourselves but to come to peace with our brothers.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by Herman
I don't mind it at all when people try to convert me. I find it sort of comforting to know that at least somebody cares.

but they don't care enough to treat you like an equal. they put themselves in a position of claiming absolute truth and telling you that you are in absolute ignorance of that truth until you acknowledge thier doctrines and dogma.

There's one way to look at it. And sure, maybe for some it's a superiority trip, but I don't believe that's the case for all or even the majority of Christians. Yes, they believe that they are right and you are wrong, but so does basically every person you ever meet with an opinion. Are there no more good intentioned people out there?