Shouldn't

Before reading this, keep in mind that it isn't coming from some evangelical who is trying to tell you what to do. This is merely a thought I've had, and I figured I'd share it with you guys and see what you think.

I hear a lot of Christians these days taking the "You're free to believe what you believe, and I won't try to convert you or shove my religion down your throat" stance. I hate that analogy, but it's fitting in this situation. Anyway, on the surface this sounds great. Everyone believes what they want and lets other do the same. But if a person truly believes the word of the bible and believes in Heaven and Hell, shouldn't they feel obligated to convert as many people to their religion as possible so as to reduce the number of souls that will be tortured in the afterlife? People always get mad at Christians who preach to strangers or try to get their friends to believe, but isn't it more frightening to think that your friend who believes you will go to Hell is perfectly fine just letting you believe what you want and perish after you die? If I knew that my friend was about to go on a skiing trip, and that for a fact, on this skiing trip he's going to hit a tree and die, you better believe I'm going to do all I can to get him to not go on this skiing trip. I wouldn't just sit there going "Well he's free to do what he wants. I don't want to force anything down his throat." Instead of getting angry at "door to door preachers," shouldn't we be thankful that at least they care enough to try to save us? It must be a scary thought to believe that people you care about are going to burn in Hell someday. Why shouldn't a Christian do all they can to convert people to their religion, even if it seems like a burden at the moment?

This post was not meant to offend or provoke anyone. It's merely something I often think about and want to discuss with more people.

Herman, excellent post. I agree. Atheism is like a child telling his or her parents that they do not exist and never existed.

I believe that most preachers preach not for power but to truly help others.

I believe that a person never goes wrong when he or she preaches The Word with all of his or her heart, soul, mind, and strength.

God Bless.

Originally posted by Herman
If I knew that my friend was about to go on a skiing trip, and that for a fact, on this skiing trip he's going to hit a tree and die, you better believe I'm going to do all I can to get him to not go on this skiing trip.

(bold is my emphasis)

If you knew "for a fact" that your friend was about to die you could show him evidence. A fact is data that can be tested and found to be true.

I'm not mocking your faith, merely pointing out that i personally disaprove of anyone forcing their beliefs down anyone elses throat, particularly faith based beliefs as these can not be proven to the person you are attempting to convert. Yes you can convince them of your sincerity but you will be unable to supply "facts" to prove it.

mojo.

well thats not the way I feel
I let God do his thing.
I just love God and my neigbour
the rest is up to God
no biblethumping needed


besides thats just banging your head against the wall


God will bring forth those he has chosen
Real faith and a real relationship with God is personal...not preached


[edit on 19-5-2007 by junglelord]

Originally posted by GreatTech
Atheism is like a child telling his or her parents that they do not exist and never existed.

Really poor analogy.

Originally posted by junglelord
besides thats just banging your head against the wall

I've been a fine example of head banging at it's finest here too.

Those lessons learned the hard way tend to stick though.

Originally posted by junglelord

God will bring forth those he has chosen
Real faith and a real relationship with God is personal...not preached


[edit on 19-5-2007 by junglelord]

Did you ever stop to consider that God may intend you as an agent to "bring forth those He has chosen"? If God didn't use those that aleady knew Him to spred the "good news", how is He supposed to "bring them forth", exactly? Don't get me wrong, I understand how intimidating and frustrating it can be to witness to non-believers, especially those who are confessed enemies of the Word, but if we don't do it, who will.

In fact, I will go a step further and say that if you are not, at the very least, defending your faith and ready to explain why you believe, when asked, you are doing a great disservice to those who are unsaved, and Christ, as well. We are commanded to spread the good news of the gospel and if we who know the truth do not, who will? Please, understand that I am not trying to sound judgemental here, The Lord knows that I of all people have stumbled and fallen many times in my walk with Chris,t but this is important.

Most believers, who were not brought up in the church, learn about God and His plan for Salvation from other believers and those brought up in the church learn about it from their parents and pastor and other Christian friends. If we just confine our relationship with God to Church on Sunday and a few prayers during the week, hiw will anyone know that we are Christians? I believe that Christ not only saved us "from" our sins but also saved us to pass on the good news to others; if we feel that others either don't deserve to know or that it's not our job to tell them, how many will never find out?

I think that Herman brings up a very valid point. I, for one, have never been comfortable going door to door but if I am talking with a friend or new acquaintance I shouldn't feel strange about asking them if they ever think about "spiritual things" and then briefly telling them what I beleive. If that person's heart is ready to hear the word then God will take care of the saving part, it's just our job, as believers, to at the very least let them know that salvation is available to them.

Think about this for a moment: we, as followers of Jesus Christ, know first-hand what a great and loving God we serve and what He has done for us through Jesus Christ; shouln't we give everyone we know the same chance to know Him? I for one will never be at peace with the fact that several members of my family will never see heaven because I was too weak and lacking in faith to tell them what I knew to be the truth. Do you, any of you, want to spend eternity in paradise knowing that people you love are spending eternity "somewhere else" because they didn't know they had a choice in the matter?

"Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

Nathanael said to him, "Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, "Come and see." John 1:45-46

Here's an amazing little clip I ran up on the other day. Shows what one man can do.

Story about an old man in Sydney Australia....... well listen.

Thank you, so much, WiseSheep. That was maybe the most powerful testimony I have ever heard regarding the saving power of God's word and what can be accomplished by one person with the faith of a child. I am so humbled to think of how many I might have reached for Christ, if I had been more like Mr. Genor. I hope that I have the priveledge of meeting him in the life to come. He truly was one of God's special saints and an inspiration to me, personally.

Blessings,

SR

P.S. Would you mind posting the link to the video? I would like to share it with some friends of mine. Thanks.

[edit on 5/19/2007 by Stormrider]

StormRider...

The Lord brings about many circumtances - to bring forth from ones spirit - actions that we may or may not WANT in our lifetime.

Situations - good or bad - are sometimes thrust upon us.

HOW we deal with these confrontations, determines the 'education' of ones's soul.

Determines the education of our existance.

Sometimes I get angry (like a lot of people) when I have my 'back to the wall', with descissons that I HAVE to make.

The outcome of these descisions 'make my world'.

And so will the outcome of yours - predetermine your mind-set and outer surroundings.

Do I really want every Christain I meet to ask me "Have you found god?" "Do you go to church?"

You know what I: really don't mind. Is it their moral obligation to do so, are they genuinly driven by a higher purpose to try and convert you. No I would think not.

I have the utmost respect for everyones believes and religions. It's all good baby. That's the way I truely try to be. I currently belong to the church of NFR (No Fixed Religon).

I have said to many poeple "If your God wants me, he knows where I am."

But feel free to keep trying if that is the way you feel you should be spending your time, but can we chat about it over a couple of glasses of wine.

herman, i'd completely agree with you if you were talking about FACTS here, but you're talking about something that you take ON FAITH.

Those who preach to convert you are fooled themselves because they do not understand the truth. Christ came and told us all sins are forgiven, yet Christianity at large does not "really" believe that. Every church I have seen and heard always throws in their conditions of salvation. In them, no one is actually saved, lest they quit doing their wicked deeds, according to the church.

This is parallel to the teaching of free will that we choose Jesus to save us, when in fact the Father chooses us. If the church understood that the free will teaching is a device of Satan, then they would not feel so lofty about the fact that they are saved by grace through faith, and not because they came up with the idea to believe in Jesus.

Furthermore, when you truly believe in God running the show and destiny, then you understand that there is no eternal damnation. Only the wicked believe in hell. But, I feel sorrow for some, because I too once believed that people burned for evil deeds. That was my own self-righteous behavior at work, until the Father knocked me down some.

I think you are misinterpreting me. I thought I explained it well enough, but apparently I haven't. I can be bad at that at times. I didn't make this post to justify my actions or to tell anyone to convert their friends. In fact, and although it still pains me to say it, I've lost most of my faith over the past couple of years. I'd be more inclined to call myself an agnostic. I don't want this to be the focus of the discussion, but let's just say I don't believe that a God like the God described in Christianity would even allow a place like Hell to exist, let alone have so many souls that he loves suffering there. I posted this thought because it's something I hear a lot. "I can't stand those Christians who always try to convert me." or "I'm a Christian, but I don't try to convert anyone to my faith."

madnessinmysoul

herman, i'd completely agree with you if you were talking about FACTS here, but you're talking about something that you take ON FAITH.

My point was that to a Christian, these things are things that they believe to be true. True as in non-fictional. To someone who truly and 100% believes in Heaven and Hell, I completely understand why they would want to convert other people to their faith. In fact, I would wonder why anyone wouldn't do all they can to save someone from a fate so terrible. Whether or not that fate is real or not to the "convertee" isn't a part of it.

Ok... I'm not the preaching type. I do believe in god. I don't believe in orgnized religion. As far as i'm concerned Churches are money making schemes.. telling you that if you don't give them enough money, then you will go to hell. God doesn't need money.. HE'S GOD!!! Churches do to exist, and provide charity, and if that is what they use the money for, and you have it to give... by all means do so.

AS for going to hell. This is how i have been explained God and his mercy. God sends no one to hell, they send themselves. During the great battle of heaven (getting into some dogma here), Satan and his followers choose to try to overthrow God, and after the battle was lost cast out of heaven. They created their own place, that most call hell. They could easily go back to god and tell him that they were sorry, but they are to proud to admit the mistake. That is why they stay in hell. The same with people... God doesn't put you in hell, you do. God is forgiving, and i'm sure that those who don't believe in him in this life, will see him in the next and only will be judged on the merits of their life. (Just to stress this is how it was explained to me and what i personally believe)

It's not our place to tell those who don't believe to do so, we were given faith in god... they were given faith in something else. That is how God would owanted it. No one is "better" or "more destin for heaven"... we all are on the equal playing field.

Originally posted by TheDuckster
StormRider...

The Lord brings about many circumtances - to bring forth from ones spirit - actions that we may or may not WANT in our lifetime.

Situations - good or bad - are sometimes thrust upon us.

HOW we deal with these confrontations, determines the 'education' of ones's soul.

Determines the education of our existance.

Sometimes I get angry (like a lot of people) when I have my 'back to the wall', with descissons that I HAVE to make.

The outcome of these descisions 'make my world'.

And so will the outcome of yours - predetermine your mind-set and outer surroundings.

Duckster -

O.K., I'll ask: What does the above have to do with what I wrote in my previous posts? What decisions of mine are you referring to? I don't have any problem with my "mind-set", thank you, very much. How's yours? Which Lord are you talking about? I have come across no scripture or other teachings on the "education" of my soul; where did you hear that decision making skills or soul educaton have anything to do with telling others about Christ? Please explain.

Originally posted by ben91069
Only the wicked believe in hell. But, I feel sorrow for some, because I too once believed that people burned for evil deeds. That was my own self-righteous behavior at work, until the Father knocked me down some.

Could you please interpret this for us?

Revelation 20:11-15
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Originally posted by ben91069
Those who preach to convert you are fooled themselves because they do not understand the truth. Christ came and told us all sins are forgiven, yet Christianity at large does not "really" believe that. Every church I have seen and heard always throws in their conditions of salvation. In them, no one is actually saved, lest they quit doing their wicked deeds, according to the church.

Ben, would you be kind enough to give chapter and verse references for your contention that everyone's sins are forgiven, unconditionally? You see, from what I read in the Bible, it appears that there are certain conditions to that salvation, which you even mention a little further down in your post. It's called Grace combined with faith; obviously God does not grant that Grace and faith to everyone or else we wouldn't be having this discussion with so many who still don't believe. How is it, in your theology, that those who reject Christ still end up having their sins forgiven and getitng a free pass to eternal glory?

This is parallel to the teaching of free will that we choose Jesus to save us, when in fact the Father chooses us. If the church understood that the free will teaching is a device of Satan, then they would not feel so lofty about the fact that they are saved by grace through faith, and not because they came up with the idea to believe in Jesus.

If there is no free will then we are nothing but robots and God's grace and Christ's death mean nothing. Calling free will a "device of Satan" does not align with your other statement here, the one about grace through faith; how exactly are we to place our faith in Christ if we do not choose to do so? Many people have heard the gospel preached and have either rejected the word altogether or have taken it with a grain of salt, in neither case causing any change in their life. So, if there is no free will, we have no choice in the matter, is that what your saying? That God will send everyone to Heaven whether they want to go or not? As far as the believer coming up with the idea to believe in Jesus, I believe you are way off the mark; it is the work of the Holy Spirit to both bring about conviction of sin and belief; that is where your faith comes from, as well the Grace to believe.

Furthermore, when you truly believe in God running the show and destiny, then you understand that there is no eternal damnation. Only the wicked believe in hell. But, I feel sorrow for some, because I too once believed that people burned for evil deeds. That was my own self-righteous behavior at work, until the Father knocked me down some.

No eternal damnation. No matter how bad you have been in life or how many lives you have destroyed you go to heaven with the man or woman who spent all of their lives doing good for their fellow man, and not because they were necessarily a "good person", per se, but because they were serving Jesus. How does that compute in your brain, Ben? Because, I gotta tell ya, it makes no sense to me, whatever. All of the New Testament scripture goes contrary to that way of thinking. Jesus, Himself said that there was a hell and people would most certainly go there, whether they wanted to or not. He also said that it was a very narrow path that led to Heaven and very few people find it, taking the "wider"path to destruction, instead.

Might I suggest that you go back and re-read your bible on these points and see if, maybe, you are misinformed?

Originally posted by Herman
Why shouldn't a Christian do all they can to convert people to their religion, even if it seems like a burden at the moment?

Well Herman,

I think it is a matter of courtesy, really. Certainly answer people's questions on the matter, but if Christians assume (as in take on) the right to convert, then why not Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Hari Krishnas, Taoists, Buddhists, etc, etc. One would not be able to hear one's self think for all the people of different faiths attempting to convert you to their 'one true religion'.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by converting 'people', but GreatTech seems to think you mean converting just athiests. I assume that you mean converting anybody and everybody who is not of the Christian faith.

I think to answer your question, you must ask yourself how you would feel about being barraged endlessly by conversion attempts on behalf of all the other religions of the world, all of which believe that only their faith is 'correct'

The Winged Wombat

[edit on 20/5/07 by The Winged Wombat]

Originally posted by Herman
My point was that to a Christian, these things are things that they believe to be true.

and my point is that it is BELIEVED, faith-based.

True as in non-fictional.

yet not supported by facts, faith based truth.

To someone who truly and 100% believes in Heaven and Hell, I completely understand why they would want to convert other people to their faith.

but again, they still just believe. if they had facts to back it up it would make complete sense to convert, but they don't.

In fact, I would wonder why anyone wouldn't do all they can to save someone from a fate so terrible.

but who says that going to hell is so terrible? why would the devil punish people for god? hell, why would the devil punish his own kind?

and who says that only christians get to heaven? look at scripture:
jesus said that the only way to heaven is through him
god is love
jesus = god
therefore, the only way to heaven is through love.

Whether or not that fate is real or not to the "convertee" isn't a part of it.

i'm not talking about whether or not its real to the convertee, i'm talking about whether or not that truth is OBJECTIVE