Question about US kids and firearms.

I have'nt seen this mentioned here on ATS yet, quite suprised actualy even from a discussion point of view.

He can barely walk or talk, but 11-month-old "Bubba" Ludwig is already a fully paid up member of America's firearms fraternity, with a 12-gauge Beretta shotgun and a gun permit to his name.

The shotgun was a gift from his grandfather who bought it as an heirloom for his grandson when the infant was just two-weeks-old.

The gun permit came courtesy of the Illinois state authorities last month.

Even in a country with fervent gun advocates, news of an infant owning a gun has made headlines in US newspapers.

The toddler's father, also named Howard Ludwig, applied for a Firearm Owner's Identification Card (FOID) for his son, never imagining that he would actually get one.
Source:11 month old baby granted firearms permit

Although i have some concerns about the firearms issue in the US, i won't make a huge issue out of this one as it may well be just that, a non issue.

I do have a couple of questions though as it is still a bit of an eye opener, i mean even the kids dad thought it surprising when he got a permit granted and he's from the US!

Ok, the article says that anyone under the age of 21 has to get thier parents permission to own a firearm. This appears to be the case in this situation as the babys father applied for the permit himself for his kid.

So am i right in saying that this baby is legally a gun owner now?

Do you think it is responsible giving a child this age a gun permit? Does that do anything to help the bad image that the US already has when it comes to firearms?

Why could'nt the law have stated that it has to go on the dad's permit until the kid was old enough to have it himself. Or does the fact that the kid is under 21 and has his dad's permission make him old enough already?

Again, this is'nt a stab at the US gun laws, although you could call me intrigued as to the thinking behind this one.

CX.

My kid has been shooting for quite some time now. For her it's a sport and a way to relax. Her uncle gave her a .22 rifle and she shoots all of his guns. Matter of fact she out shoots most adult men. It's good that she is comfortable with firearms and knows how to handle them safely as we've always had guns in the house; some loaded some not. She knows from being at the range to handle all guns as if they are loaded. People get into trouble when they don't know how to handle them safely and how they operate. Guns are a tool; nothing more.

I do however, find it odd that an infant has a gun permit starting kinda early but then I started shooting at a NRA range when I was five.

Yeah fair one i guess, i have to admit that i think shooting is a great sport for kids when it it done properly.

I think it's the age thing that shocked me. I know that realistically this baby is not about to go pick up a 12 guage and start blatting away, but the law sure does make it sound like that would be perfectly exceptable if he could!

CX.

[edit on 18/5/07 by CX]

It seems the reason the permit was issued was because all the requirements were met. If it were denied, it would be an issue of age discrimination. With no minimum age specified as long as a parent approves ownership, a child can be issued the permit regardless of if they're 2 days, 2 months, 2 years, or 12 years of age.

If a permit is required, why not get it early if you've got a firearm that requires such being handed down? It might not be long before he's out shooting with dad. My dad taught me to shoot at around 4 or 5 with small bore rifles, and as a kid i got to shoot a lot of different guns. It's not that unusual for rural kids to know how to shoot by the age of 5.

I'm not a fan of bureaucracy and permits, but i'd think it's a "good" thing in the "big brother wants to watch us to keep us all safe" kinda way, i mean isn't it a bit more "responsible" than the parent who just gives their kid a gun without registering it? Still, I feel that the fact that the parent applied for and recieved the permit is a good thing, a parent that registers firearms properly would probably be more apt to do other things properly, like teach gun safety.

I didn't read much of the original topic on the issue, but i think it's silly that anyone is even talking about this.

It is very common here in the US for guns to be handed down for generations. They are also taught respect for the weapon and are instructed to understand the importance of adult supervision and never to "play" with a gun. My Mom always hated guns but my Dad had one in every room in the house. None of the kids ever blew it. I think it is ok for this child to be a leagal owner of his gun that his grandpa gave him. What a legacy this one will be for generations. On the other hand if guncontroll ever happens they will know of gun to confiscate.

Ok i understand the handing down of guns thing. Again i guess it comes down to a different cultures.

Yet i still find myself saying to myself, "A gun permit.....issued to a baby?"

Does it really sound that natural to you guys?

Oh well. Different worlds and all that.

CX.

Hold on a sec! Having a "Gun Permit" and a CCW or "Concealed Carry Permit" are two entirely different things. ANYONE, under the U.S. Constitution is permited to own a gun, age notwithstanding. Minors MUST have parental consent to own a firearm. ALL people owning firearms are generally required to have a permit for said firearm - however, this can vary by state and even municipality. Many states require "Registration" as a form of permit while others may require either a state, county or municiple permit to be physically administered. In any event, so long as the requirements for gun ownership are met by those governing laws - they MSUT isse the permit or register the weapon or both.

In this case, the requirements were fully met. The gun was registered and a permit issued as the request was submitted by the child's legal guardian. Having said permit, however, doesn't mean that this child can go walking around with his weapon.

There are laws governing the carry and transport of such weapons. There are laws regarding the discharging of such weapon. Heck, there are even laws about purchasing ammunition for such weapons. Whereas this "infant" has a gun registered to his name, it is his legal guardian's responsibility (In this case his father) to ensure that it is secured and used in compliance with all governing laws in his area.

So, you see... simply having a gun registered in a youth's name is not immediate cause for alarm or concern. Minors cannot legally obtain, register, carry, conceal or operate a firearm without their legal guardian. So, no big deal in my opinion.

This "FOID" is an Illinois thing. Maybe in some other states but not in the Great State of Oklahoma!

Roper

Its really not as big of a deal as it seems. He could legally own a car if his parents bought him one. Doesn't mean he can legally drive it until he's 16. Its the same thing here. With the parents permission, he can legally own a firearm. That doesn't mean he can legally use it, at least not without direct parental supervision, until he's at least 18 (it may be 21; I know you can't BUY a firearm until 21, but not sure about usage/ownership in the case of inheritance, etc).

I knew how to shoot a gun by the time I was probably 5 and knew it wasn't a toy as well. And this was in the 1980s, mind you. My experience was hardly uncommon in this area, either. I guess it just depends on where you were raised, but the whole anti-gun thing just seems pretty strange to me.

18 to buy a rifle or shotgun, 21 to buy a handgun or NFA.

This is really a non-issue. all it means is that the family got the paperwork out of the way early on, it DOES NOT mean that babies across the nation are going to start sleeping with Glocks under their pillows.

Seriously, people need to relax.

Thanks for the replies on this thread, it's always good to hear US members reactions to things like this in order for us foriegners to get a better understanding.

For something that really is a non-issue, it was obviously weird enough for many major news networks to report it, even the US ones where it really is a non-issue apparently.

I only posted this for discussion purposes, and discussion we got. Those who claim that it's not worth talking about, thanks for posting too.

Just call me a curious Brit!

CX.

Like someone said earlier, I doubt the baby is going to crawl around shooting up other babies in the daycare.

But I think it is going to do good. The earlier a child understands that a gun is not a toy, and something that is dangerous and needs respect, the better off they would be once they get older.

Much better than a 13 year old finding one and saying "Hey whats this do? BAM".

So hopefully the kid will learn about gun safety and respect and once he gets older enjoy using the gun in sport. Nothing wrong with that.

Just out of interest, who teaches these kids about gun safety?

Are they required to go to a gun club, or is this safety training done at home by family members or friends?

CX.

Well some states require the buyer to go through a safety course to buy handguns, like California and Connecticuit. Other states like New York and Texas do not require the courses. But since a child could not go to the store and buy the gun, I think the parent would go and either take the child, or teach the child the things they learn in the course. (Not to sure about it, the only guns I've shot were my uncles a long time ago)

But if they are not required that doesn't mean they can't go to them, I've seen courses around here. Or the family members can teach each other, which would be the responsible thing to do.

One has to be 18 years old to legally poses a firearm, 21 to "purchase" a handgun, from a dealer, Minors can posses a firearm under the"direct" supervision of an adult legally able to posses a firearm, Meaning he cant do anything with it unless an adult is with him/her, In some states, Minors "Mid teens", Can "hunt" without supervision with a shotgun or rifle, But he must have proper training ie, safety course ect.

Just because he "owns" it, doesn't mean he can do anything with it on his own for quite sometime, With that said, I think theres more to this story then we are being told in this article.

Originally posted by CX
Just out of interest, who teaches these kids about gun safety

CX.

Here in Washington kids are required to go through a certified gun safety course taught by certified instructors. At the pen we put one on as a public service called Hunter Safety which kids must pass before being able to obtain a hunting license. I attended a class through the NRA as a kid. I also taught my daughter gun safety. There are a wide variety of ways to learn gun safety.

It is my view that this case involves some political grandstanding on the part of the parent, just to prove a point.

There's no reason someone wouldn't give a gun to an infant as a gift, just as someone might buy any long term investment for the benefit of a child that he would not be able to use until he reached a certain age.

Some of the rigmarole could have been avoid by simply giving the firearm to the child's parent who could have safeguarded it until the child reaches the appropriate age, but I think rigmarole is what they were looking for.

Both sides of the issue can use this to make a point about gun control, either that it is not stringent enough, because an 11 month old might go out and shoot up the neighborhood, or that gun control is silly because it makes a parent have to acquire a gun permit for an infant who couldn't possibly go out and shoot up the neighborhood.

[edit on 2007/5/19 by GradyPhilpott]

The shotgun was a gift from his grandfather who bought it as an heirloom for his grandson when the infant was just two-weeks-old.

A thought comes to mind - the tax on estates upon death. I'm not familiar with the laws of the state this story originates from but it could be possible the weapon was registered directly do the child via gift so that it couldn't be counted in his grandfather's estate upon death and thus possibly be required to be sold. When I got my last hunting rifle as a birthday gift I made sure it was registered in my name rather than my grandfather's so that when he passes away the state or my uncle won't come around expecting it to be turned over.

On the topic of gun safety here in VA it used to be standard practice for high schoolers to take a hunter safety course but then a shift in politics removed the course, now its just a requirement if you are a first time hunter in the state. If your planning on getting a CCW in the state you must pass either a hunter safety course, or a class approved by either the DCJS ( I think thats the right acronym ) or NRA to get the permit.

The media circus around guns is a fairly recent thing. Many of us were raised with guns in the house. We saw them all the time. They rode behind our heads in the truck. We went hunting with our fathers and learned early the seriousness of gun safety. We even had free access to them (although we would never touch them without specific permission) It was just the way things were in many homes.

I think Grady has it here. This was a publicity stunt.

We have already been discussing this.
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

(cant get hyper link to work)




[edit on 20-5-2007 by Samhain]