What is the difference between our Minds and Conscioiusness?

This is a loaded question and should be viewed in conjuntion with this great thread started by "TheGreySwordsman".
The Difference Between Spirit and Soul

I'm interested in your opinions on the local concept of one's mind and one's consciousness. Are they the same thing? Are they physical and local to our bodies? And what happens when one is unconscious?




[edit on 18-5-2007 by Red_Dog_BOM]

Stuart Hameroff MD has done some excellent research on this topic.

www.quantumconsciousness.org...

My view is that the mind and consciousness are the same thing but are in no way caused by the brain. Consciousness survives physical death.

Originally posted by etshrtslr
Stuart Hameroff MD has done some excellent research on this topic.

www.quantumconsciousness.org...

Hameroff is looking at consciousness down at the quantum level. Looking locally in the brain. This is what I'm refering to when I ask the question.

The answer to this question involves a poor use of language skills for we are dealing with a linguistic term "conciousnous". It is relative to the principal subject.

I would like to believe that something survives beyond the brain and body, but I don't think it is the consciousness per se. This overlaps into the other thread dealing with Soul versus Spirit.

I'm interested in how the mind differs from the consciousness, if they are indeed different.

My view is that the mind and consciousness are the same thing but are in no way caused by the brain. Consciousness survives physical death.

Your stating that as though it is an objective fact, I would need objective proof that my consciousness survives physical death, as am sure most would.


[edit on 18-5-2007 by Red_Dog_BOM]

Originally posted by Red_Dog_BOM

Your stating that as though it is an objective fact, I would need objective proof that my consciousness survives physical death, as am sure most would.


[edit on 18-5-2007 by Red_Dog_BOM]

If you want a peer reviewed scientific study conducted at the University of Arizona on consciousness surviving death here it is.

veritas.arizona.edu...



[edit on 18-5-2007 by etshrtslr]

Wow, Thanks E. I'll download and read that now. Great find.

Hi, I have a electronic engineering technology diploma 98% honours
seven years in the field
I also have a three year soft tissue therapy diploma 96% honours and I am a Registered Medical Professional in Ontario Canada.
I have ran my own clinic with chiropractors for over ten years and I also teach to medical professionals and have taught college for six years A&P and have ten years of post graduate studies. I therefore have much experience and education in several fields and practice a form of therapy that really makes me special, I work with chronic and acute pain, orthopedic injuries, spinal subluxations, visceral manipulation, cranial sacral therapy, posture, gravity, emotions, biofields, tensegrity. Structure and Function cannot be seperated.

I am a Tensional Release Therapist.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

The brain and the fascial matrix and the sensory web form a holographic quantum computer interface for consciouness (the soul) to operate through and in the material world.
Consciousness is energy and its information.
A debate I had with Byrd.
E=M=I

You will see the same information on my post about the collegan tubuels and they have CSF (cerebral spinal fluid) in the lumen is the same idea as his on microtubuels and neurons.
They function as quantum nano computer

www.abovetopsecret.com...

here is an excert of my work.

9. Quantum Continum Communication Model: A fascial sensor field array is created by multiple layers of fascia and in varying numbers of planes in any given area. An energy field is created by any given group of sensors (sensor field array) simply due to the electrical and magnetic field vibrations created by each component. They form a collective bio – electric/magnetic field semi – conducting transmitter/receiver grid that is both local and global in sensitivity and design. The measurement of these fields has been established by the use of a SQUID imagining technology that measures via a superconducting quantum interface device. These fields extend up to three feet from the body for the heart field. The series of acupuncture meridians correspondes to the main channels of the semi conductor network. According to acupuncture theory the main meridians (jing) run vertically but many horizontal meridians (luo) run into every part of the body. These points are sensitive nodes in the system where local information is gathered and integrated with long distance communication information and with both internal and external information via newly discovered type III and type IV gravity receptors that are clustered around these nodes. The electrical evidence of these nodes have been studied by Dr. Becker during his examination of the currents of injury and the regrowth of limbs by a salamander. The nodes can be measured as focal points of charge within the energy grid that act as dipoles with either a positive or negative polarity. The average tissue current is – 5 milliampes with an injury the electrical current generated or the current of injury is around + 10 to 15 millampes. Within three days the salamander unlike you or I will reverse the polarity and create a – 10 to – 15 current that stimulates regeneration of the limb as opposed to scar tissue formation.
the current of injury

www.rifeenergymedicine.com...

The same mechanism is fundamental in bone fractures in humans if union is to occur, lack of union indicates that a positive polarity is matained at the injury. The collegen rich connective tissue matrix acts like a semi conducting electronic communication network that extends throughout the body and integrates with these varying sensory grids. The collegen fiber contains CSF and may function as a quantum computer RAM that stores and replaces information via electron spin due to the circumference of the lumen and the size of the molecules. The changes in hydration and alignment of the collegen fibers acts to magnify or inhibit amplification of the human energy field. The nodes of polarity stimulate a morphogenic field that extends into space that generates information for the blastosphere to differentiate into specific tissue via a quantum wave expression that is arranged by the energy grid as it self assembles and specializes. This semi conducting network maybe set up like what in computer systems is called a “distributed network”that manage information theory. Such a system will reroute information when a transmitter/receiver is down via a self management program that always takes the path of least resistance so that the system accomadates local downtime via systems integration of the grid as a whole. This way individual microprocessors correspond to the nodes based on the assembly of programs or algorithms systems analysis and the fascia receptors and the meridians relate the energy grid in a physical sense. The integration of the ECM and the collegen fibers to the arrangement of the cytoskeleton via microtubules and microfiliments to the clusters of gravity receptors and the arrangement of meridians theory is evidence of quantum continum communication model that self monitors and interrelates to all levels of vibratory coherency.


[edit on 18-5-2007 by junglelord]

2. Semiconductors: Semiconductors are situated somewhere between an insulator and a conductor. The position of the electrons in the valence shell have the ability to travel from atom to atom creating an electric current. All the tissue and elements that we have examined are semiconductors. Just like in an integrated circuit a semiconductor has the ability to both store and transmit energy/information. What we have is a biological means of storing and transmitting information via intrinsic currents that relay information across the global matrix to all cells of the body. Changes in gravitational stress, tension, and load cause changes in these intrinsic currents which is both conveyed and integrated as information in both a regional and global way by directing the activity from fibroblast to mitosis. Therefore we are starting to recognize that information is directed to every cell and cellular component via means other then that of the nervous or endocrine system or the hard wire and chemical means that are well accepted by the medical community.

3. Pizoelectricity: This principle of physics states that a crystal that is compressed will emit an electrical/magnetic field and current. It is a well established law of physics that the mechanical movement of iron through a coiled wire will generate electrical and magnetic fields. Also that an electric current creates a corresponding magnetic field and that a changing magnetic field will create an electric current. Another well established principle is that pressure on a liquid crystal will create an electrical/magnetic field and current. The tissue tensegrity – matrix system and it’s components are a liquid crystal that convey this electrical magnetic information into and out of each cell and throughout the matrix. Mechanical waves are therefore able to generate electric/magnetic fields and currents and vica versa. Active or passive movement will always generate a relay of information across the tissue tensegrity – matrix system. Movement from the wave of breath outwards to the cardiac pulse and harmonizing with the cranial sacral rhythm pulsates the body with information and echo pulses back encode conditions of every region as well as a global sense of integration.

4. Crystallinity: Many elements of the system have proven to have a crystalline structure. Lipids in the cell membrane, collegen, actin, myosin, and the cytoskeleton elements are all crystalline structures. The elements of the cytoskeleton assemble and disassemble in something Buckminster termed a gitterbug transformation due to the fact that they arrange themselves along lines of tension in a icoshedron formation. Pressure, temperature, magnetic fields and other forms of energy can make them fall apart and therefore erase information as they depolymerize and repolymerize which results in a gel sol transformation of the colloid through repeated cycles of reorganization. The manufacture of and subsequent breakdown of a clot is organized by information that is expressed by lines of force such as gravity and stress impose on the wound. As well the organization of a scar by a fibroblast and collagen fiber arrangement and quantity is expressed due to the lines of force imparted by active resisted exercise. The ability to disassemble and reassemble as higher levels of organization is related to the existence of sacred geometry and platonic solids as they relate to sound, waves, vibrations, resonance and crystals. At an atomic level the arrangement of the crystalline lattice is important for the idea that structure always takes a self replicating shape that has economy of mass and structure interrelated in the organized pattern. The orderly arrangement of a atomic crystal lattice is important if we are to have a understanding of the next property of physics that these crystalline structures generate, which is the ability to create, generate and transmit a monochrome light wave.

here is another post that is very important I made concerning my hypothesis and my clinical experience and some a study by dr Hunt from UCLA

A Study of Structural Integration from Neuromuscular, Energy Fields and Emotions

www.abovetopsecret.com...

© 2001 Valerie Hunt

An isolated truth is not that important. A truth is only important if you make a concept out of it. Once we make a concept we build models, and each one of us is operating on models. I’ll ask you to build some new models. The model I am after is a new model of a human being based on health, consciousness and evolution.
Here are 3 models that make up our belief system:
1) The physiological model has to do with disease: we treat symptoms of disease because we do not know what health is, and we accept the fact that health is the absence of disease.
2) The biochemical model: you’ve read that life started from a chemical soup and then progressed to protozoa. It is not so. It takes an electrical spark: you can have all the chemistry in the world, but if there is no electricity, no power and no charge there is no life. Even the DNA can be altered by the change in consciousness of a human being.
3) The behavioral model has to do with perception, experience, ego, personality, emotion, and brain hemispheres. This model only answers a very small part of human behavior and only memory of life in the current times.
These models are not incorrect, but they are incomplete. Hence the need to find a new model rather than trying to fit our behaviors into a model that does not fit: the current model cannot explain some selections we make or things we perceive. The final instructions are in the new model: the human energy field or the mind of man, a field of energy that incorporates all behaviors, even to the highest level –the level of the soul.
The soul is the apex of the energy field, which holds the memory of everything that has ever occurred to that soul, including other lifehoods. It is also the source of intuition, insight and creativity. These higher-level capacities are not found in the brain (the brain is a dandy computer with a lovely switchboard, but it is not the source of high level creation).
The human field is also the source of mystical experiences.
We have believed in the past that when we have mystical experiences the brain is in alpha or theta. Do you know how narrow alpha and theta waves are? One to two frequency cycles apart! The most creative thing the brain does in alpha or theta state is to get out of the way, so that the mind can take over. As soon as the brain gets out of the way the field of energy expands, soars, catapulting in frequencies. In the field of the brain we may have some psychic experiences, but these do not soar, and they never reach the spiritual experiences or insights. Spiritual vibrations of the field are the highest vibrations I have ever recorded in the human being: here there are no agnostic or atheist; your background may be Jewish, Christian, Muslim or Buddhist, but the spiritual experience is identical when your field advances to a profoundly divine state.
There are some real problems connected with the energy field. The ancients had similar experiences but they did not have scientific answers, so they gave answers based on intuition and referred to parts of the field calling them the emotional body, the spiritual body, the etheric body and the physical body. Scientifically fields are all inside and outside of the body. Bodies have the rigidity of material substances, and when you apply a body concept of layers, you encourage the same rigid concept. But people say: “I see the field”. While it is true that the eye has the finest perception of our five senses, it is also the most distorted: visual information tries to make sense of everything it sees by layering it. Fields do not layer: they fuse, they blend, and they have a rolling effect. I encourage you to stop the layering thinking about the field. We could not understand the field during the material age, but we can now in the atomic age, the age of consciousness.

Everything that exists in space is atomic. All the energy in the world comes from atoms, and energy becomes organized: the atom of my desk and the atom of my ring are exactly the same as my atom; they are only controlled and organized in a different way.
Lightning is organized energy.
A rock is organized energy.
The human energy is organized around emotions. When emotions become disturbed and distorted the energy field suffers, it becomes anticoherent, flighty. Also the old concept about auras, emotional bodies, etheric bodies gave the idea of something from the inside going out, while the field is both inside and outside. It comes from inside the atoms of the body, it manifests outward and transacts with the atoms of the world. Everything that exists in space has an aura, but the human aura is peripatetic: it changes, it flies around, it colors, it becomes quite stationary and rigid at times and it is the most dynamic of all, more than animals or plants because we have capacities that come from higher organization: it is living, changing and growing because we have a soul. And when the soul enters the body (somewhere around the first trimester), it does not come in neutral, it carries the experiences it has had throughout all of its lifehoods.

www.bioenergyfields.org...

This'll be my first time attempting to explain my views on this subject.

Mind= an aspect of yourself. It's the vehicle through which you percieve and engage the world. It tries to put some semblance of order to the natural chaos of reality so that you can comprehend it. The mind is what drives energy to take form.

Conciousness is a knowing. The body recieves information via the senses. The emotions via instinct. The mind via intuition. The soul via revelation. These are types of awareness, and to some, this can define conciousness. The chakras that are so famous are indeed, false, as they are commonly percieved. They each function as a level on conciousness, not a funnel, or a doorway through which energy flows. They exist as tools in this manner for us to percieve the layer of conciousness that they represent. Each level represents a knowing of a truth. The greater the level of conciousness in this area, the more powerful you are. Then, once the Kundalini rises, it dissolves away the tools for now the mind can readily percieve the truth at each level of conciousness.

The brain= is the center from which the body interacts with the mind.

To review. Mind is an aspect of yourself. Conciousness is an understanding, a level of awareness.

I hope I explained this properly.

Gosh, after reading these other posts, I feel a bit underqualified to answer! But I'll try to join in, as this is the kind of thing that keeps me awake at night, pondering like.

I like the explanation TGS gave of mind being the vehicle that sorts out ORDER. I understand this as logic, or the logos side of our personality (not sure if personality is the right word, but I mean as an individual)

And that consciousness is the knowing side, the side that is aware. The side we must also keep wide awake, not ignore. This to me is the Sophia side, that turns what we've learned through the mind, into wisdom.

And when the two are actively used at the same time and allowed the time to work together (and maybe keep us awake pondering some ideas, or alternatively, 'worrying'!) then we can gain 'peace of mind' by thinking things through. But quite often, it seems like some people only use their mind, and forget to use their wisdom.

I think at some point, aside from the obvious (ie dreaming) the subconscious (?) can sometimes kick in when I've been pondering on something particularly tricky, something at least that I find is 'enlightening' me seemingly from beyond my own consciousness, and this adds an extra element, though obviously I'm just speculating here, and it may just be another form of my own consciousness. Anyone understand what I mean, and can explain this? - I think of it as the higher consciousness but don't want to send this thread off in a direction it wasn't meant to; it would be interesting to hear a non-mystical explanation, or even an alternative explanation (on a new thread if it's going off topic here)

I also hope I've expressed this properly...as you've probably guessed from what I've written, I sometimes feel like I have an untidy mind!

Originally posted by Nebankh

I also hope I've expressed this properly...as you've probably guessed from what I've written, I sometimes feel like I have an untidy mind!

I think perhaps..rather than being "untidy", is that you are "unsure". You have ideas, but question them, and so hold back and restrict them, because they can't possibly be right, and you likely had times in your life when you tried to express these views, but were shot down or ridiculed. It may be because your mind goes faster than your ability to communicate can keep up.

But that's just my guess. I don't really know anything at all about you, so my theory there was a pretty bold statement.

double post

[edit on 21-5-2007 by TheGreySwordsman]

Thanks for being bold TGS - I think you have identified that correctly, on both counts, and I'll ponder on that one tonight

Nebankh

I always wondered that if you die, do you maintain a level of alertness even after death. Because I'm sure it takes a few for the brain to die off but even after that. I mean when you die do you spend all eternity looking at the top of your casket. Like in Johnny get your gun - where the soldier is paralyzed and just sits there and goes insane.

Originally posted by Morbo
I always wondered that if you die, do you maintain a level of alertness even after death.

This is my opinion on life after death. Not that I actually know.

If you die suddenly, the instant of death is frozen briefly in your mind, until it eventually fades away. From there, depending on who you are, you experience will vary. If you are a very concious person, your life here wll seem a dream you just woke up from. If you're not ,alot of it will seem chaotic. Eventually you'll be reborn here.

If you die with alot of emotional baggage, you will find your conciously trapped here until you can let go, and then memories will exist in this world on a replay, if the emotion was strong enough.

Each time you are reborn, you change more. For example, if I died today and was reborn tomorrow, I would be somewhat like I am in this lifetime. If I died years from them and was reborn again, I would be less like I am in this current lifetime than the previous. Eventually, I wont even be vaguely recognizable to this lifetime. Again, degrees of retention and such all depend on how conscious and aware you are.

Sorry for taking this thread off track.

Originally posted by TheGreySwordsman
This'll be my first time attempting to explain my views on this subject.

I have come to the conclusion that subjects like this defy a forum based dialog, since the concepts put forward have so many subjective and objective perspectives. Its more like an 8 hour discussion. Which though difficult, I would enjoy. Thanks for trying to be so sucinct.

Originally posted by TheGreySwordsman
Mind= an aspect of yourself. It's the vehicle through which you percieve and engage the world. It tries to put some semblance of order to the natural chaos of reality so that you can comprehend it. The mind is what drives energy to take form.

I'm leaning towards the mind being a byproduct or epiphenominon of the physical brain. Like my computers CPU. Nothing more than a complicated quantum processing algorithm which is tethered to the physical brain. The filtering gateway for lower wavelength non-lineal universal and local consciousness processing. It is what makes this reality so persistent and real to us.

Originally posted by TheGreySwordsman
Conciousness is a knowing. The body recieves information via the senses. The emotions via instinct. The mind via intuition. The soul via revelation. These are types of awareness, and to some, this can define conciousness.

I agree that consciousness is a form of knowing. I also disagree with the classical viewpoint that consciousness is an epiphenominon of the mind. It is my opinion, and appears to be yours too, that the mind is actually and epiphenominon of the local and universal consciousness. Tethered to the brain. Once you reverse the perspective, you begin to see that everthing that we have traditionally considered "real" is nothing more than a beta wave state collaspe of the wave function through our 5 senses. As we percieve the world around us only in a focused beta awake state. This is why it seems so real to our mind and then consciousness. Our perspective is from beta towards delta. Everything is being filtered from this perspective and becomes skewed, tainted, warped, rose-colored.

Originally posted by TheGreySwordsman
The greater the level of conciousness in this area, the more powerful you are. Then, once the Kundalini rises, it dissolves away the tools for now the mind can readily percieve the truth at each level of conciousness.

I know nothing of Kundalini, and my skew on this reality is based more on the objective side than the subjective. I see levels of consciousness closely linked to the actual wave state emmission of the brain itself. Like tuning a radio, of you can adjust your brain wave state from the waking high frequency state (beta) down to the lower frequency of Delta, you then filter out the 5 senses and can tune into the Universal conscioiusness/God Head where all knowledge past, present and future exists. It might be in another dimension, it might be a Zero Point Field, or some other medium which can only be accessed if we can dampen down the waking state of the human brain. Then the "truth" or epiphany, as sudden reodering of knowledge gells into this vessels brain and consciousness.

Originally posted by Nebankh
Gosh, after reading these other posts, I feel a bit underqualified to answer!

Who really is? But who better than those of us stuck in this experience? Granted much if it is subjective, yet is real for each that has the experience.

Originally posted by Nebankh
I think at some point, aside from the obvious (ie dreaming) the subconscious (?) can sometimes kick in when I've been pondering on something particularly tricky, something at least that I find is 'enlightening' me seemingly from beyond my own consciousness, and this adds an extra element, though obviously I'm just speculating here, and it may just be another form of my own consciousness. Anyone understand what I mean, and can explain this? - I think of it as the higher consciousness but don't want to send this thread off in a direction it wasn't meant to; it would be interesting to hear a non-mystical explanation, or even an alternative explanation (on a new thread if it's going off topic here)

I'll take a stab at this, since it is part for the total picture of this topic. Again their are linguistic and time limitations which make this venue flawed...
I've been in a design profession most of my life, where I unconsciously tap into this field of `enlightenment'. I had always been curious how and why this happens when I relax and focus my mind on a specific design problem. I would get these epiphanies while in this relaxed state. They aways seems to come from outside my percieved `self'. Higher consciousness is a good way to view it. There have been many scientific studies of this realm in an attempt to explain objectively, what appears to be a subjective experience.

My personal view, is that it is a combination of frequency, perspective and perception. Put another way, we cannot percieve the knowledge in the Universal consciousness, from the perspective of a beta wave frequency.
The beta awake state uses the 5 senses in a linear fashion to try to make sense of the non-linear flood of knowledge which comes down from the higher consciousness, through the other wave states. Our minds are capable of storing this chaotic flow of knowledge, and will often later reorder this knowledge in a linear fashion which our Beta state can make sense of. This is what is often called an epiphany. Where everything we have been thinking on, suddenly makes sense. I liken these moments to sledge hammer to the side of the head!

*Double Post*



[edit on 11-6-2007 by Tamahu]

*Double Post*



[edit on 11-6-2007 by Tamahu]