Can science and the Bible prove dragons existed?

Time to debunk a few things. For everyone who doubts that the leviathan is a dragon, look at EVERY detail of the leviathan, not just what you can try to prove me wrong with. I told you, I exist in two worlds, and both have confirmed my reasons for dragons' existence. And the Bible can be backed up by science on some occasions. Does anyone else want to try to prove me wrong. Especially when I am not wrong. Keep in mind that I am backed up by the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by bobbyboy
Time to debunk a few things. For everyone who doubts that the leviathan is a dragon, look at EVERY detail of the leviathan, not just what you can try to prove me wrong with. I told you, I exist in two worlds, and both have confirmed my reasons for dragons' existence. And the Bible can be backed up by science on some occasions. Does anyone else want to try to prove me wrong. Especially when I am not wrong. Keep in mind that I am backed up by the Holy Spirit.

I did look and Leviathan has seven heads just like its Canaanite counterpart Lotan and the Dragon/Beast in the Apocalypse of John. Its either symbolic or the heads are tentacles. Symbol or Giant Cephalopod your choice.

Two worlds? Reality and not reality? Some facts and figures related to History can be verified from the Bible but you'll have to show me what in science can verified.

Prove you wrong? How about you prove your right first. Keep in mind I'm backed up by Hebrew, the Tanakh, various Jewish legends, Canaanite myths, and other Jewish writings.

I personally would not of picked Leviathan to make your case about Dragons. Do some research on the Seraphim. Look into Indo-European langauges, and you might find they have abit in common with Tien Lung.

The Python and the Boa contrictor are unique among the species of snakes. The Boa and the Python both have two lungs, whereas the other species of snakes only have one. The Boa is different from all of them because it has live births. The most significant detail these two types of snake have is that they both have vestigal bones of the pelvis. They appear as anal spurs on the surface of the snake. These spurs have been observed to be in pairs on either side of the snake and they can look like talons. The spurs are tied to muscles and the snake has the ability to control them.


Python Vertebrae
www.amnh.org...

en.wikipedia.org...


The anatomy of the Boa and the Python either prove Evolution correct or the Bible book of Genesis correct.

Genesis 3:14 states this:

"And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Becaue thou has done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life."

Revelation 12:9 says that the geat dragon was hurled down, the ancient serpent, the one called Devil and Satan was cast down with his angels.

The dragon and the serpent are one in the same. With limbs it is known as a dragon, without limbs it is known as a serpent or snake.

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

The Python and the Boa Constrictor are unique among the species of snakes. The Boa and the Python both have two lungs, whereas the other species of snakes only have one. The Boa is different from all of them because it has live births. The most significant detail these two types of snake have is that they both have vestigal bones of the pelvis. They appear as anal spurs on the surface of the snake. These spurs have been observed to be in pairs on either side of the snake and they can look like talons. The spurs are tied to muscles and the snake has the ability to control them.


Python Vertebrae
www.amnh.org...



Anal Spurs on an Albino Burmese Python
en.wikipedia.org...


The anatomy of the Boa and the Python either prove Evolution correct or the Bible book of Genesis correct.

Genesis 3:14 states this:

"And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Becaue thou has done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life."

Revelation 12:9 says that the geat dragon was hurled down, the ancient serpent, the one called Devil and Satan was cast down with his angels.

The dragon and the serpent are one in the same. With limbs it is known as a dragon, without limbs it is known as a serpent or snake.

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

I've had a hard time finding photos online of fully developed spurs on these snakes. Can someone direct me to a good link? My first exerience of seeing dual spurs on a Python was in Baseside, Miami. A guy was allowing people to hold his snake and then have pictures taken with them holding the snake. His snake was yellow and it may have been a Burmese Python. Its dual spurs sure looked like lizard talons.

[edit on 20-5-2007 by lostinspace]

Originally posted by lostinspace
The Python and the Boa Constrictor are unique among the species of snakes. The Boa and the Python both have two lungs, whereas the other species of snakes only have one. The Boa is different from all of them because it has live births. The most significant detail these two types of snake have is that they both have vestigal bones of the pelvis. They appear as anal spurs on the surface of the snake. These spurs have been observed to be in pairs on either side of the snake and they can look like talons. The spurs are tied to muscles and the snake has the ability to control them.

Python Vertebrae
www.amnh.org...

Anal Spurs on an Albino Burmese Python
en.wikipedia.org...


The anatomy of the Boa and the Python either prove Evolution correct or the Bible book of Genesis correct.

Genesis 3:14 states this:

"And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Becaue thou has done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life."

Revelation 12:9 says that the geat dragon was hurled down, the ancient serpent, the one called Devil and Satan was cast down with his angels.

The dragon and the serpent are one in the same. With limbs it is known as a dragon, without limbs it is known as a serpent or snake.

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

I've had a hard time finding photos online of fully developed spurs on these snakes. Can someone direct me to a good link? My first exerience of seeing dual spurs on a Python was in Baseside, Miami. A guy was allowing people to hold his snake and then have pictures taken with them holding the snake. His snake was yellow and it may have been a Burmese Python. Its dual spurs sure looked like lizard talons.

[edit on 20-5-2007 by lostinspace]

This is all very interesting but it pertains to the Nahashim and not the Leviathan.

The Nahash is the Serpent in Eden, which I would argue is a creature in the Garden since it says explicitly it is creature of the garden in Genesis. In Jewish legend it is portrayed as a humanoid creature that lived in Eden. The Nahash are comparable to the Naga of Hindu lore.

Drakon which is the greek word used in revelations would actually be limbless. Greek dragons were giant serpents like the dragon Python at Delphi or Ladon in the Garden of Hesperides.

This is all very interesting but it pertains to the Nahashim and not the Leviathan.

The Nahash is the Serpent in Eden, which I would argue is a creature in the Garden since it says explicitly it is creature of the garden in Genesis. In Jewish legend it is portrayed as a humanoid creature that lived in Eden. The Nahash are comparable to the Naga of Hindu lore.

Drakon which is the greek word used in revelations would actually be limbless. Greek dragons were giant serpents like the dragon Python at Delphi or Ladon in the Garden of Hesperides.

Are you talking about the red dragon, Satan in Revelations? And where do you get all this information about past and present creatures? I am honestly not cynical about this, I would like to learn more from different cultures about these creaures and how different cultures, past and present, view these. Researching these creatures has been my life work, and I exist in both the physical and the spiritual world to answer your question. And really there's no way to prove I am right. That's where faith steps in. You have earned my respect as a fellow denier. Sorry if I am never her. My schedule, even though I designed it, is confusing and full of crap and chaos.

Originally posted by bobbyboy
Are you talking about the red dragon, Satan in Revelations? And where do you get all this information about past and present creatures? I am honestly not cynical about this, I would like to learn more from different cultures about these creaures and how different cultures, past and present, view these. Researching these creatures has been my life work, and I exist in both the physical and the spiritual world to answer your question. And really there's no way to prove I am right. That's where faith steps in. You have earned my respect as a fellow denier. Sorry if I am never her. My schedule, even though I designed it, is confusing and full of crap and chaos.

I have a small library of books that I'm continually adding to and I use the internet for research. Like with the word Drakon, I know already that the New Testament was written in Greek. I know already the Greek word Drakon is the word used in Revelations for what is translated as Dragon. So then I'll research the usage of the word and dragons in Greek myth. From there Ill find that Drakon means a massive serpentine creature, sometimes with multiple heads. I'll then look for examples from Greek myth like Python of Dephi and Ladon of Hesperides.

I am the same as you I have been researching these things since I was a small child. I might even call my research an obsession.

Many of these ideas I dont deny but I try to keep people on the right path. Like for instance, Serpent "people" and dragons are a fairly universal myth around the world. Leviathan is just one small piece of the puzzle. Focusing on just one part can mislead and misinform someone. The Bible itself is filled with Serpentine creatures: Leviathan, Tannin, Rahab, the Seraphim, and the Nahash.

One thing I have noticed among these various cultures is that Serpentine beings seem to be guardians who watch over important objects and sites.

Another strange correlation are apocalyptic battles between a deity and a great dragon. Often the deity is a storm deity.
In Hittite myth there is great dragon Illuyanka, who is like Lotan of Canaanite myth, that is either a guardian of heaven or guardian of the gods. He was slain by the Hittite version of Ba'al. Ba'al slayed Lotan in Canaanite myth. There are correlations with Zeus' battle with Typhon, Thor's battle with Jörmungandr, Marduk's battle with Tiamat and Indra's battle with Vritra. In the Bible G-d is prophesied to kill Leviathan in the Last Days. In Atenism Aten slays Apep. Note all of these dragons are Cthonic/Sea dragons.

There are other dragons of the Celestial/Heavenly variety considered to benevolent. The Seraphim of the Bible, the Tien Lung of Chinese myth, Quetzcouatl and Kulkulcan of Mesoamerican myth.

There are lots of fascinating bits to learn from all over the world.

clicky clickclick here to read an interesting, short explanation for the occurrence of dragons in the bible.

for those of you who can't be bothered, here's a very short version: the hebrew word tanniym, was subject to an awful lot of creative license during the various rewrites of the bible. around the time of the king james rewrite, dragons were just about the nastiest things the people could thing of, and so in it went!
as to why people at that time believed in dragons, it's already been proposed by other posters - big bones and alot of imagination. ironically, they were pretty good guesses for mediaeval folk!

Originally posted by bobbyboy
I see what you guys mean with it being a huge exaggeration, but keep in mind that most of the Bible is the words of people. In this instance, God is speaking. When God speaks in the Bible, it is not exaggerated. It says in the Bible that it rained for 40 days and 40 nights. It also says in the Bible that the flood covered the mountains to over 138 meters. That means every mountain, including Everest. Plus, the verse before that mentions that all the high mountains were covered and the Earth was flooded for 150 days. See Genesis 7:12, 7:17-20, and 7:24.

Actually I would say that all the Bible, that is the Old testament (which actually is "Old" testament for Christians only) and the New testament is the words of people. True, God may have influenced them when they wrote it, but the writings are all done by human hands, wouldnt you agree?

// ka

Originally posted by kick
Actually I would say that all the Bible, that is the Old testament (which actually is "Old" testament for Christians only) and the New testament is the words of people. True, God may have influenced them when they wrote it, but the writings are all done by human hands, wouldnt you agree?

// ka

Yes, I would agree. In fact, that's something I know is true. However, I would like to refer you to 2 Timothy chapter 3 verse 16.

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

You see, God breathed the words into the people who wrote the books of the Bible. And I am truly sorry if this faith talk of mine offends you, but I am a person who tends to defend their faith almost every day. But I don't see what you're getting at with that post. It has nothing to do with my thread, which is what people are here for.

Originally posted by bobbyboy

Originally posted by kick
Actually I would say that all the Bible, that is the Old testament (which actually is "Old" testament for Christians only) and the New testament is the words of people. True, God may have influenced them when they wrote it, but the writings are all done by human hands, wouldnt you agree?

// ka

Yes, I would agree. In fact, that's something I know is true. However, I would like to refer you to 2 Timothy chapter 3 verse 16.

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

You see, God breathed the words into the people who wrote the books of the Bible. And I am truly sorry if this faith talk of mine offends you, but I am a person who tends to defend their faith almost every day. But I don't see what you're getting at with that post. It has nothing to do with my thread, which is what people are here for.

Nah, I am not easily offended and why should I have been offended by your post?

Actually, my comment was on *your* comment to other guys/girls in this thread where you said:

"...I see what you guys mean with it being a huge exaggeration, but keep in mind that most of the Bible is the words of people. In this instance, God is speaking. When God speaks in the Bible, it is not exaggerated. It says in the Bible that it rained for 40 days and 40 nights. It also says in the Bible that the flood covered the mountains to over 138 meters. That means every mountain, including Everest. Plus, the verse before that mentions that all the high mountains were covered and the Earth was flooded for 150 days. See Genesis 7:12, 7:17-20, and 7:24..."

which did the impression that you believe that most of the Bible is written and thought up by people, but *some* of it is Gods words.

I thought that sounded strange, that´s all.

Btw, the 2 Timothy isnt really written by Paul, but a later Paul-follower, but you already knew that right?

// ka

Originally posted by kick
Nah, I am not easily offended and why should I have been offended by your post?

Actually, my comment was on *your* comment to other guys/girls in this thread where you said:

"...I see what you guys mean with it being a huge exaggeration, but keep in mind that most of the Bible is the words of people. In this instance, God is speaking. When God speaks in the Bible, it is not exaggerated. It says in the Bible that it rained for 40 days and 40 nights. It also says in the Bible that the flood covered the mountains to over 138 meters. That means every mountain, including Everest. Plus, the verse before that mentions that all the high mountains were covered and the Earth was flooded for 150 days. See Genesis 7:12, 7:17-20, and 7:24..."

which did the impression that you believe that most of the Bible is written and thought up by people, but *some* of it is Gods words.

I thought that sounded strange, that´s all.

Btw, the 2 Timothy isnt really written by Paul, but a later Paul-follower, but you already knew that right?

// ka

oh... no, that's not what I was trying to get through at all. I was trying to say that though people wrote all of the Bible, God breathed it and it was recorded that some of the text was where people spoke, and some of it was where God spoke. And 2 Timothy was written by paul, it says so in the first and second verse.

1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus,

2To Timothy, my dear son:
Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

It was from Paul to Timothy, and plus he also mentions help from the LORD in Ephesus. Who else would have wrote this that had also been in Ephesus? And who else could speak in the same way that Paul did? Check the whole book for it, especially in chapter 3. Paul was a great man and a great preacher of the Gospel, too. Where did you find this information? I would like to see who came up with this.

Originally posted by bobbyboy

Originally posted by kick
Nah, I am not easily offended and why should I have been offended by your post?

Actually, my comment was on *your* comment to other guys/girls in this thread where you said:

"...I see what you guys mean with it being a huge exaggeration, but keep in mind that most of the Bible is the words of people. In this instance, God is speaking. When God speaks in the Bible, it is not exaggerated. It says in the Bible that it rained for 40 days and 40 nights. It also says in the Bible that the flood covered the mountains to over 138 meters. That means every mountain, including Everest. Plus, the verse before that mentions that all the high mountains were covered and the Earth was flooded for 150 days. See Genesis 7:12, 7:17-20, and 7:24..."

which did the impression that you believe that most of the Bible is written and thought up by people, but *some* of it is Gods words.

I thought that sounded strange, that´s all.

Btw, the 2 Timothy isnt really written by Paul, but a later Paul-follower, but you already knew that right?

// ka

oh... no, that's not what I was trying to get through at all. I was trying to say that though people wrote all of the Bible, God breathed it and it was recorded that some of the text was where people spoke, and some of it was where God spoke. And 2 Timothy was written by paul, it says so in the first and second verse.

1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus,

2To Timothy, my dear son:
Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

It was from Paul to Timothy, and plus he also mentions help from the LORD in Ephesus. Who else would have wrote this that had also been in Ephesus? And who else could speak in the same way that Paul did? Check the whole book for it, especially in chapter 3. Paul was a great man and a great preacher of the Gospel, too. Where did you find this information? I would like to see who came up with this.

Just because it says so in the first verse doesnt necessarily make it true.

I have had an interest in the Biblical historical writings for a long time and read a lot of the history behind the writings and have found this piece of (quite well-known, but apparently not to you) info in several sources, among them

The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings by Bart D. Ehrman,

Publisher: Oxford University Press, USA; 3 edition (July 23, 2003)
ISBN-10: 0195154622
ISBN-13: 978-0195154627

You can find it here:
www.amazon.com...=pd_bbs_sr_2/103-4533722-6183800?ie=UTF8&s=books&q id=1180031366&sr=1-2

// ka

[edit on 24-5-2007 by kickass]

And lo the Lord said to JackofBlades "My son, I give you these words as clarification. Just because a heathen may say I am in communion with him, it need not be true".

Okay did you get that?

God just told me to tell you that just because someone writes 'God said' its not necessarily what God said. And if you have trouble believing that God just spoke to me, why is it easier for you to believe the words of people who've been dead for centuries and had their words interpreted in different ways and translated umpteen times, when I've given you the message from the horses mouth!

just bringing this religious tangent back full circle here... back to the subject of dragons. *ahem*

as far as i know, nobody's found any evidence for dragons as a species of their own existing now, or at any point in history. it's entirely possible that the term dragon was applied to many different types of reptile throughout the ages - and even documented in the bible - but science itself has yet to find any explanation other than misidentification and dinosaurs.

Originally posted by Batty
just bringing this religious tangent back full circle here... back to the subject of dragons. *ahem*

as far as i know, nobody's found any evidence for dragons as a species of their own existing now, or at any point in history. it's entirely possible that the term dragon was applied to many different types of reptile throughout the ages - and even documented in the bible - but science itself has yet to find any explanation other than misidentification and dinosaurs.

Thanks for that batty, i think we all got distracted there for a few posts.

On the subject of dragons (again, thankfully) you say the term dragon is applied to various reptiles over the years, but I would like for you to answer this one question: why is it that so many cultures, almost every single one, in fact, had paintings and records of some fearsome creature that they all called a dragon?

And JackofBlades, who says God was talking about the writers of the Bible? You said that He said just because a heathen says that He said something doesn't mean He actually said it. And how are you so sure that it was even God speaking to you and not Satan?

[edit on 25-5-2007 by bobbyboy]