China's death toll on the world: 176,000,000++ to start

Since the USA is seen as the biggest bad guy. I thought China's record should be brought up. I bet this will not get more than a few posts, as it does not fit the needs of showing the USA is bad bad bad. China has a long long history of killiing, and it will take the USA many centuries to catch of the murder of China. But at least we have a template to aspire to.

Deaths Incidents
40,000,000 Three Kingdoms War of China (184–280)
36,000,000 An Shi Rebellion (China 756-763)
25,000,000 Manchu conquest of Ming China (1616–1644)
20,000,000 Taiping Rebellion (China 1851-1864) **low estimate
1,500,000 Korean War (1950-1953) **split the difference on the average, even though they should be blamed for more.
3,700,000 Chinese Civil War (1928–1949) note that this figure excludes World War II casualties ***Average
50,000,000 People's Republic of China (1949-1975) under Mao Zedong **Great Leap forward & Cultural Revolution etc.*** took an average
200,000 Darfur Genocide in Sudan. (2003-present) blocking UN because of oil interests. **took half of the 400,000

176,400,000 Grand Total
And this is just the start.

Here are some links to China's Death Toll.



[edit on 16-5-2007 by Imogen]

I don't think it's fair to ascribe that whole number to modern day China, seeing as China has had many "changes of management" over the millenia. Furthermore, whether or not anyone's life could be saved by intervention in Darfur is entirely speculative and in my opinion wrong. I believe that an armed intervention in Darfur would cost more lives than it would save.

Furthermore, the bulk of that total is casualties from either invasions or civil wars. This data is interesting from a historical perspective, but to merely add these numbers together and lay all the blame at Modern China's feet is a gross oversimplification.

While your maths may be accurate, can you be sure of the veracity of accounts of casualties from over 1000 years ago? To include such is totally erronous if you're wanting to make a comparison to the US, as the Chinese nation has stood for almost 10 times as long as the US

Originally posted by Imogen
Since the USA is seen as the biggest bad guy. I thought China's record should be brought up.

Deaths Incidents

1,500,000 Korean War (1950-1953) **split the difference on the
200,000 Darfur Genocide in Sudan. (2003-present) blocking UN because of oil interests. **took half of the 400,000

176,400,000 Grand Total

Wow, another "look what someone else did so we're not so bad thread".

Well, I edited out the ones that didn't matter(internal matters), and looky what we have here, not a grand total of 176,400,000 but 1,700,000. Google can be a wonderful tool, you can use it to make anything fit your agenda if you don't take the time to think about the info. BTW, how many countries did you go through before you got to one that you thought fit the bill?

I thought that the first post of USA Deathtool was pretty pathetic since it blames the ENTIRE conflict on the united states...

Well that is really neat but when you stop and think about it for *counts* 1-second.... You realize. "Hey! It takes 2! To have a war..."

The basic concept of going through history to find out which military took out more and which one is worse really does not make it relavent.

Why don't people also look at who the bad-guys really WERE in these conflicts and from there I bet you will find that many more people would have died if they where left uncontested in some regions. For either country.

It seems that most people missed the point of the recent "American death toll" Post by IIB. The point wasnt to simply highlight the cost of human lives through US intervention, it was to highlight the fact that US leaders and policy makers use IMPERIALISTIC tactics to create such a toll.

That the purpose of many, if not all, of those interventions in the middle east, central and south america, and globally has not been for the well intentioned reasons listed by pundits and policy makers.

Everyone knows that most if not all countries have persued policies of war and attrition, but its the reasons behind those policies that need to be explored in more detail, not just the outcome.

Originally posted by AbitTweaked
Why don't people also look at who the bad-guys really WERE in these conflicts and from there I bet you will find that many more people would have died if they where left uncontested in some regions. For either country.

I think you sould take your own advice here and look into conflicts where superpowers have preformed mass interventions.

And for the love of pete, be critical and do not leave out the biggest question of all, who benefits and at whos expense? Class analysis, if applied correctly will reveal a very painful truth about most interventions abroad.

EDIT: BTW Intrepid, good critique of the OP.

[edit on 16-5-2007 by InSpiteOf]

I think even a casual analysis will reveal that ALL major powers have killed millions. There's a huge logical fallacy in both of the threads, which is, "killing is always bad!". You want to make an omelet, you're going to have to break some eggs. Unless a nation wishes to be enslaved, they will have to fight. Fighting and killing is as natural as living.

I do not encourage war, but these threads are not very intelligent.

Originally posted by Imogen
Since the USA is seen as the biggest bad guy. I thought China's record should be brought up. I bet this will not get more than a few posts, as it does not fit the needs of showing the USA is bad bad bad. China has a long long history of killiing, and it will take the USA many centuries to catch of the murder of China. But at least we have a template to aspire to.

Deaths Incidents
40,000,000 Three Kingdoms War of China (184–280)
36,000,000 An Shi Rebellion (China 756-763)
25,000,000 Manchu conquest of Ming China (1616–1644)
20,000,000 Taiping Rebellion (China 1851-1864) **low estimate
1,500,000 Korean War (1950-1953) **split the difference on the average, even though they should be blamed for more.
3,700,000 Chinese Civil War (1928–1949) note that this figure excludes World War II casualties ***Average
50,000,000 People's Republic of China (1949-1975) under Mao Zedong **Great Leap forward & Cultural Revolution etc.*** took an average
200,000 Darfur Genocide in Sudan. (2003-present) blocking UN because of oil interests. **took half of the 400,000

176,400,000 Grand Total
And this is just the start.

Here are some links to China's Death Toll.



[edit on 16-5-2007 by Imogen]

You're also forgeting that china is killing it's own people at a fast paste, probaly to do with over population.
Besides a ilegality that would bring you a fine almost anything that would get you a sentence in jail is punisheble by death sentence.
Tax evasion, rape are seen as a sure way to get exexuted in china.
I also want to state that if this thread is a result of that other thread you are not making a very good point.
You are not making a very good point because unlike china people expect alot more from united states than china.
China is covered in a black shade but we don't expect anything from china because we know what china is.
On the other hand united states has declared it's self the kindom of freedom and morality promoting those values ...you know.
People would expect more from united states than china, but if you want to compare your country with china be my guest, it would seem that you are saying your self that china is just like united states, bad call....by doing this.
Really people are upset because of those expectations, when the good guy does it then it's bad image for the people that back up united states,.....no one backs china up ....no one thinks china is the good guy.
If this thread is VS the other thread then this thread is a joke, if it's independent then okay....but I don't beilive it's independent, the tittle sounds just like the other thread.

You're really draging your country in dirt by comparing it to china, it;s like saying hey we are just like them.


[edit on 16-5-2007 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by uberarcanist
I think even a casual analysis will reveal that ALL major powers have killed millions. There's a huge logical fallacy in both of the threads, which is, "killing is always bad!". You want to make an omelet, you're going to have to break some eggs. Unless a nation wishes to be enslaved, they will have to fight. Fighting and killing is as natural as living.

I do not encourage war, but these threads are not very intelligent.

Well true but i think you missed my point. When attempting to understand an intervention and why it is occuring, many people leave out the important issue of class analysis, who benefits and at who's expense. Many have been trained to completely ignore class consciousness and assume common cause with policy makers and world leaders, when very little (if any) actually exists.

I have found that Class analysis of interventions, wars, and foreign policy in general has been the most helpful tool in revealing the hidden motives behind such things. Thats all i was trying to say.

And as for this :

"killing is always bad!". You want to make an omelet, you're going to have to break some eggs.

Killing for defense is one thing. But killing to expand capital penetration and accumulation is another. It may be our nature to expand, but its our intellegence and compassion that must prevail in order to stop such ruthless expansionism.

Given China's population control policies (one child per family), I am willing to bet that China has killed untold millions of it's citizens while they are still foetuses.

Abortion enforced by the state is still slaughter of the population, whatever you think of abortion.

I did this thread as a not a "We" aren't bad thread, as to expose the first thread for what it is. Discounting the millions of lives that were liquidated and hidden away need voices too. If you want to deny the 100 million-ish death toll of China and Russia in the 20th century then so be it.

China killed so many of its own citizens in 40 years it is scary. The same government is in control that did the Tiananmen Square massacre on there own population. It kind of reminds me of the video of Chinese border guards shooting unarmed people

Then there is the arugement of people killed by there own rulers is ok. Ahh, so it is ok to kill someone in your own family and it is not murder? Murder is murder.


I'm not going to write a long view of the world. But wars and deaths from even thousands of years ago mean something.

Is a death in a murder in a village 3000 years ago have equal value of a life killed 20 years ago in Afganistan or youror my death in a war 20 years in the future?

We have been on Earth but a blink of an eye.

Originally posted by Imogen
200,000 Darfur Genocide in Sudan. (2003-present) blocking UN because of oil interests. **took half of the 400,000

So then your total of those outside their own borders is only 200,000, or did I misinterpret some of those?

How about this: I'll give you the entire 400,000.

I must state however, they do repress their ow people and it's a tragedy. The other tragedy is that "we" support said tragedies. I don't see how the US Establishment would have it any other way, as their making major dough by all of that slave labor (like verywhere else in the world).

Since the US is out to save the world from repression, shouldn't we have bombed and invaded China decades ago?

[edit on 23-5-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]