Watching the Big Bang

Originally posted by TheRenegade
Your point makes sense, and as I said before, due to E=MC squared we could not have witnessed the Big Bang. I don't think you can make anything out of nothing, even on this one case. What about Newtons somethingth law which says that energy cannot be created or destroyed? (I think it was Newton...) If energy cannot be created or destroyed then how did the Big Bang start? Where did the energy come from to create it? It must have been somewhere in some form.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed in our observations. The only thing is that if the universe is infinite, every possibility must occur. So energy MUST be created from nothing. (if the universe is infinite)

The thing is you've kind of just contradicted yourself. If the universe was infinite it would have no reason to create the energy - it has no beginning. Energy, like the universe would just be. Therefore if the universe is infinite then there is no need for the creation of energy, but if it is finite then it contradicts the laws of physics.

never thought of it that way before. This is another thing that leads me to believe that the Universe is Infinite. I was thinking about that earlier this year at school... If enery cannot be created nor destroyed then there could not be a beginning or end, because energy will always be there... Unless there is some way to create or destroy energy... which if there is such a way, probably won't be acheived by the human race.

If it were possible to create energy that would be extremely hard to find, but extremely useful. It might even enable travel at the speed of light. I think that a lot of the signs point at the universe being infinite, but also a lot point at it being finite (like scientists claiming that the universe is expanding...). I doubt energy could be created though. It seems highly unlikely and it would have no form or place to be before the universe.

I understand exactly what you are saying. I dont agree though. If the universe is infinite, then every concievable possibility has to occur. If not, then the universe isnt infinite. It makes sense to think...energy was always here... It is actually a relief to think of it that way. Still, infinity as humans created the term, means everything. If you can think of it. It must happen somewhere, or the universe isn't infinite. If the universe adheres the the Law of Conservation Of Energy, then it has finite physical boundries. I don't see how that could be possible. The word infinte holds a lot of weight. Maybe the universe is infinite in time and size only. I dont know, kind of like, half infinte.....

again back to the other post... I don't think that there is a time... I think we invented time so maybe the Universe is only infinite in SPACE

what about red shift? isn't that a problem for an infinate universe? also i read in one of the post something to the effect that if there was a big bang that would throw a monkey wrench in religion, that is not true at all imop. i don't understand why i ask questions when i know i will never find the answers, no one will ever find the answers to any of this imop.

I see what you're saying, but is that possible? I guess another flaw in the idea of an infinite universe is that all the possibilites exist - which means that in some part one of the possibilities could be that it is finite...but then the idea of an infinite universe doesn't make sense because it contradicts itself.

Originally posted by TheRenegade
I see what you're saying, but is that possible? I guess another flaw in the idea of an infinite universe is that all the possibilites exist - which means that in some part one of the possibilities could be that it is finite...but then the idea of an infinite universe doesn't make sense because it contradicts itself.

Infinity contradicts it self in every possible way. Thats just what infinity is. It is contradicting, and not contradicting at the same time.

Think of it this way. There is one thing in our lives that we commonly think we understand. In reality we don't. We use it all the time though, so its easier for us to let it slide by. The number Zero. We can concieve eating all of the oranges on your table, and having zero left. When zero is applied in other areas, it creates problems. Absolute nothing. Zero and infinity have alot in common. They are the only two numbers that you can put in a multiplication equasion and get themself as a result. No matter how complicated. Put zero in, you will get the answer zero. Put infinity in you will get the answer infinity.

Now why I am bringing this up is to support the contradictions in infinity. It the universe is infinite in space and size, then everything in it must be zero. Everything in it must be infinitly small. No size can be allowed. If you hold your hand out, you can see how big it is. That is size. Everything we observe has size. That contradicts infinity. So basically, everything in infinity is a contradiction. Its just the nature of the concept.

I see. So everything in the universe (considering it is infinite) is also nothing. It is infintite and yet finite at the same time...confusing...

You can see the light from the big bang. Since it wasn't exactly a explosion, but much much warmer. So warm even that in the beginning protons and neutrons couldn't even be formed. From about that time there is the CMBR, cosmic microwave background radiation. This proves that the universe was once in a very hot isothermal state.

Frequently Asked Questions in Cosmology
Some wrong claims about cosmology and relativity debunked

You can't see the big bang becuase it was SPACE that was banging, not something IN space.

And we do see the effects the bang had on thing within it, its called cosmic background radiation.

You see stars explode because that is light IN space.

It is like being inside of a bomb. When it explodes you see a fire ball, fire all around (background radiation) and even though you might see pieces of the bomb like bits of metal further explode nearby (matter/stars) you can not see the explosion itself because you are in it.

I have a theory about the universe being infinite / finite. So far (unless I missed one) all the theories about the universe being in/finite has only been about the present one. I remember hearing or reading some where that the universe is slowing down, and things only slow down if there is a friction or �pull� of some kind. The pull is all the gravity of the planets acting as one. So there will be a point where this universe stops expanding and begins to contract back in on it�s self, crushing everything back into the centre of this universe. This will cause ANOTHER �Big Bang� creating another universe with new elements, new laws of physics, new�.everything.

So if this universe is slowing down and will eventually contract on in itself, to explode again, that means that our universe was created in the same way, as were infinite before us, and infinite more after us.

(first post BTW)

That is a real theory: the cyclic universe theory. It's certainly possible, although the mass in our universe is almost equal to the critical mass, above which the universe will contract. It would take a long time for the universe to contract again, but it might be possible.

Yeah, I think this theory is known as 'The Big Crunch'. It is one of three theoretical outcomes for the end of a finite universe:

1) The Big Crunch - The universe contracts in on itslef and is destroyed.

2) The Big Freeze - The universe continues to expand so much that it tears the fabric of space.

3) The Big Freeze (Delayed) - The universe slows to a halt of expanding and all is well for a while, although it will end in The Big Freeze anyway.

Originally posted by TheRenegade
2) The Big Freeze - The universe continues to expand so much that it tears the fabric of space.

The outcomes you gave were right, but I don't agree with the choice of words here. In the 'Big Freeze' the particles get so far away from eachother that they will almost never interact.

Yeah, I guess that would make more sense - all of space would be torn into a kind of big universal gas.

"On a related note" if we could get a giant mirror to travel light years away, keep it aimed at earth, then look at it though a huge resolution telescope we could literally see into the past. Besides all plausibility, what am I missing here? Now it seems like it wouldn't work just to spite me. x_X

And on your topic itself, we are still watching the effects of the big bang from the past depending on how far away what it is we're watching is, it's just too slow to notice. Like when we see the sun, it's really, what, 8 minutes ago? I don't even remember what this topic is about or why I decided to reply, so I'll shut up now.

Yeah, DarkHelmet, you answered your own question with the infinity thing. Yes, scientists do kind of jump the gun when it comes to findings, especially atheist ones...

-wD

Originally posted by SmileyMan34
"On a related note" if we could get a giant mirror to travel light years away, keep it aimed at earth, then look at it though a huge resolution telescope we could literally see into the past. Besides all plausibility, what am I missing here? Now it seems like it wouldn't work just to spite me. x_X

Theoretically it would work. The light from the earth would be way to faint to discern from that distance, but theoretically we would see our past.

BTW, scientists don't have any theories for what triggered the big-bang, because any theory that is about that subject would be a bad theory. Those theory's are not falsifiable and are therefore useless to put forth.