Early stages of panic gun buying

Fennec,
It has been some time since I have come back and read this thread. I like sport shooting and the dicipline which accompanys this sport.
Sports require dicipline. I also like the dicipline of learning to reload my ammunition to make it do what I require of it verses just purchasing ammunition across the counters.

I too am a nonviolent person by nature. I am just aware that there is sometimes "wildlife" out here of the two legged kind. I am the kind of person which respects the motives of the four legged wildlife much more than the two legged type. The motives of the two legged wildlife I have little respect for outside of working and earning ones living.

I dont want to hurt of kill anyone. I will do so to protect my family and property. My propertys I have earned often at great risk to myself in this occupation of shipbuilding. It is not my intention to have to re earn these propertys two and three times over in order to support such two legged wildlife.

Some years back there was a hurricane which passed through this area. Electricity was out for some 10 days in some areas. I took my gasoline generator back and forth to my parents house and then mine in the nights. My mother requires refrigerated medicines/injections. There were people in this town who had made no preperations for this type of difficulty and who were invading other peoples propertys and stealing their generators. I would have planted this kind of wildlife in the ground for threatening my mothers health in this manner. Do I want to have to resort to this kind of behavior???...no I dont. But my mothers well being is more important to me than the welfare of such two legged wild animals.
I hope this helps you understand how some of us Yanks feel about such two legged wildlife.

I am not alone in this type of thinking here. I took great time,moneys, and pains to insure my welfare and the welfare of my parents in case of such hardship.
I have since purchased another generator such that I can leave one at my parents house in case such weather happens again.

As to the "zero tolerance" policy I am in favor of this. I think it is a good idea. Drinking and driving do not mix..neither do guns/gunpowder and alcohol.

YOu know Fennec...this is not like the olde days where one got on ones horse and if you could hang on the horse could get you home....provided the horse was not drunk too. At least the horse usually had enough sense to get back to the barn. Not so with todays automobiles. I am sure that in the olde days the stories were plentiful of drunks who fell off their horses and froze to death in the weather. This is not the fault of the horse. None the less for the most part the horse could usually find thier way home. Nor is it the fault of the gun. I think you get my point.

Thanks again for your post.
By the way..your English is quite good. My compliments.

Orangetom

Originally posted by Fennec

I see very responsible gun-owning people here, but the right to have a gun don't seems to be a "freedom" to me, but the opposite (apart for hunting stuff). if the potential of killing someone else with a gun is a freedom, why the potential of killing oneself with drug is forbiden?

Because firearms have many legitimate purposes whereas the purpose of recreational drugs is to induce an altered state thereby rendering the user "out of control" and giving rise to abnormal and dangerous behavior.

I though with the recent massacre in virginia tech, US people would consider banning firearms once and for all a good think.

Quite the reverse, the Virginia Tech massacre has resulted in several states considering the introduction of concealed carry for students on campus. A little reported shooting at a Kentucky law school was terminated with extreme prejudice by a fellow student who ended the madmans rampage with a lawfully carried weapon. Utah has already enacted its college carry bill.

In fact, in Europe, it's mostly considered a big symbol of US excess with your president.

We're not interested in the approval of Europe - in fact the displeasure of Europeans is a sure sign that we are on the right track, why would we want to emulate Socialism? While we are on the subject of Europe, the plane loads of immigrants we are seeing from European countries also suggest that it is your social policies that require revision, not ours. Life is fantastic here, the people are happy and prosperous, and very well protected by our Constitutional rights to own firearms, at least for now.

But from the other side of atlantic we don't see much of the advantages of guns (appart the very good tarantino movies lol)

You certainly didn't in either of the World Wars, and no, they weren't movies.

Originally posted by BattleofBatoche
There is an Indian (Native American [aboriginal]) reserve about an hour and a half away from where i live.



I'm part NA so I'm welcomed there.

That's a good place to go check out if anyone if planning to stock up on arms.

Orangetom:

I see your point about the "two legged wildlife" and protection versus abuses/stealing in time of crisis. It's a fact for me that the civilization is just a thin layer of technology and social control, once you remove it (with, for example a natural disaster), you go back straight to middle age. Maybe then you wish to have a gun, perticulary to protect the one you love. I'm non violent, but i could go to great lenght to protect my mother, girlfriend, and future childrens like you.

As to the "zero tolerance" policy I am in favor of this. I think it is a good idea. Drinking and driving do not mix..neither do guns/gunpowder and alcohol.

I do agree with the goal, not the mean used. Of course, enforcement of laws is necessary, but it's way harder in rural area. Basically, my fear is that people would get drunk and drive once they are sure nobody will catch them. So education is as important as zero tolerance to me. By the way, i've seen on the news that a town in Netherland abolished all driving ban and symbols (don't know the name, the big picture to say max speed/highway and stuff like that) downtown. And it seems to work! For people can't blame the symbols if they drive on a biker. Of course, the Dutch are a very liberal population, with an inner sense of personnal responsability (maybe because of their "cool" protestantism background, i don't know). I'm wondering, could it work in France?

This is not the fault of the horse. None the less for the most part the horse could usually find thier way home. Nor is it the fault of the gun. I think you get my point.

O' course, sound like common sense to me.

Thanks again for your post.
By the way..your English is quite good. My compliments.

Thanks you too. I learned English while staying in California and with the US Tv shows undubbed. Plus, that's important in my job (i'm journalist)

Fennec

Retseh:

Didn't knew that utah allowed lawfully concealed weapons for their students. Interesting... But it seems to me that Utah is one of the states with the fewest homicides in USA by the way no?

Originally posted by Retseh
We're not interested in the approval of Europe - in fact the displeasure of Europeans is a sure sign that we are on the right track, why would we want to emulate Socialism? While we are on the subject of Europe, the plane loads of immigrants we are seeing from European countries also suggest that it is your social policies that require revision, not ours. Life is fantastic here, the people are happy and prosperous, and very well protected by our Constitutional rights to own firearms, at least for now.

You DON'T have to have the approval of Europe. You are a free country. In the meantime, having an opinion and sharing it on a forum is still legal i think? Don't see the point in your intervention with socialism. First it's not vey polite for the people of Vermont... Second, Europe is a mix of 20 countries, not all socialists, not all with emmigrations issues (wich of course, you don't have at all in USA?). I don't doubt at all life is fantastic in USA, with the "pursuit of happiness" as a goal. You may wonder how i know Vermont got a socialist Senator (Bernie Sander)... That's because i'm trying to be "adequate" and not out-of-topic when sharing (sharing, not fighting) with a US personn. Please try to make the same kind of efforts on your side. Thank you...
(To be continued)

But from the other side of atlantic we don't see much of the advantages of guns (appart the very good tarantino movies lol)

You certainly didn't in either of the World Wars, and no, they weren't movies.

Retseh:

No, i'm way too young to have been in either of the WW. But here is a story you may enjoy about socialism, weapons and WW1:

Once upon a time (in the 1910's) they was a french socialist political (the name is Jean Jaures) who felt the Europe was falling in war. He felt millions would fall in this war (this war gave you Americans world leadership and was the origin of ye ol' Europe decline) for useless reasons (apart from giving to Hitler's arms a brand new German democracy).

So, he had a vision. He decided to ask all Europe labours (no, not all where communists, some were christians too) and workers in weapon business to go on strike.

Without any bullets, the fighters would have to kill each others with daggers and bayonnettes (the daggers at the rifle's points). I bet war wouldn't had lasted long in this situation.

Jean Jaures was shot in a bar with a bullet in the head, a little bit like Lincoln.

The WW1 could begin, and million peoples (including americans) died.

But the story is not over. Turned out later that a French-German familly in weapon business with strong political backup had gun factorys on both country's armies. Steel becamed a VERY important matter. At the beginning of the war, Prussia (the old empire of germany for short) took over french mines. Without them, Prussians could'nt make the war effort, melting steel for guns. Any military would so consider these strategic mines very important. In fact, any re-occupation of these mines would lead Prussia to lose the war by loss of prime ingredients.

The French military received the order NOT to take back those mines from crooked politicians. Thus prolonging the war... The business was too flourishing for some... The war lasted 4 long years, killed millions and turned most Monarchy into Democraty (wich later turned to fascism), gaved Russia to the red communists, and was a direct origin of WW2 in Europe.

Millions died for a few apatrids ploutocrats going rich. This is not a conspiracy theory, but a fact.

So when i'm saying "guns are useless" about ww1, i'm wrong: Guns are very efficient to destroy whole nations, give countries to communists, and lose world leadership.

Here is a lesson for you americans to learn: The people making wars can consider profit above patriotism, and thus betray their owns. I deeply hope for you, sincerely, that you won't pay anyday this lesson in blood...

[edit on 29-5-2007 by Fennec]

[edit on 29-5-2007 by Fennec]

Fennec,
Very intresting post you have made here. I will reply in kind but must make haste off to work.

I will reply when opportunity presents itself and time is more expedient and also tie this into the premise of the original post on page1.

Not the standard bill of fare you are going into but intresting none the less.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by Retseh
Quite the reverse, the Virginia Tech massacre has resulted in several states considering the introduction of concealed carry for students on campus. A little reported shooting at a Kentucky law school was terminated with extreme prejudice by a fellow student who ended the madmans rampage with a lawfully carried weapon. Utah has already enacted its college carry bill.

In my opinion Virginia Tech should bear some of the responsibility for the shootings. Their anti-gun policies directly contributed to the shootings. Did you know that the college police were not allowed to be armed while on duty? Their weapons were locked up in their office. If something happened they had to go to the office get their weapons and then respond to the incident.

People keep forgetting one simple thing. Laws only stop law abiding citizens! Think about it! Laws are only good for tallying up the score as to how much punishment violators get after they are broken. Virginia Tech's anti-gun policies did NOTHING to stop Cho, the only thing that they did was to possibly prevent someone else from stopping him.

I carry all of the time, even when I'm attending classes. After the VT shootings more than one of my professors asked if I was carrying while I was in their class. When I replied that I was their answer was "Good."



[edit on 29-5-2007 by JIMC5499]

Fennec,

First off let me say that when I read a post like JIMC5499's above my insticts tell me to stand at the position of attention and snap out a salute accompanied with a "oorah." !!!
JIMC5499 pretty much reflects my opinion on events and the nature of wildlife.

Concerning the French Socialist you mention Jean Jaures. I am aware as a record of history that since the defeat of Napolean at Waterloo in 1815 there continued a series of wars in Europe. Some in the 1840s and again in the 1870s along with the national animus which accompanied them. It appears that these were continued wars based on olde grudges.
This continued in France with the French Plan 17 and the German Schleiflan plan..and the British had thier plans of the encirclement. War plans were continually in the making along with armament and rearmament.

THe other thing which seems to have happened as a result of Waterloo ,though you seldom read about it directly in history books, is that the French Army seems to have become the boot lacky for the British Merchants or the Crown as it is sometimes called.or the City. THe French and their La Grande Armee was to die all over the world for British invesements. THe British Navy at sea and the French on land as the Brits were never able to afford the huge manpower for a large land army.

The intresting omission from history is that when the take or spoils were divided in true British fashion the British kept the Lions share and the French got the little outposts, coaling stations, and places which were miles from no where..like Morocco or Indochina. Anything worth Anything was in British hands or more appropriately ..the hands of the merchants or the crown.

The problem which seems to have come about eventually was that by WW1 the French were tired of dying for British profits. The French Army in the trenchs under Petan actually went on strike. They would defend France..but they would not again go over the top in these mad charges against Cannon and Machine guns. THe French were through dying for the British Merchants and being thier boot lackys. I suspect that this is part of the animosity which was between Degaull and Churchill...this history going way back.

It is at this point ..1916/1917 that the Americans came into the war to replace the French. The Americans were now to die for British or Crown intrests world wide. Since that time we have replaced the French in this endevour. I suspect this very strongly because the same pattern still occurs. Someone else gets the take of the spoils of war...not us. Yet we do the bulk of the dying and material support in these wars.
YOu remember the old saying about war..."the victors get the spoils." Since we seldom get any real spoils I conclude that we have actually lost the wars and ceded the spoils to someone else.
ONly Americans can be this naturally dumb under the banner of patiotism while paying such a huge price in blood and materials in these wars and yet continue on in such ignorance. WW1 to WW2 is a continuation of the bad policys of the merchants and their investments in Japan and Germany. Korea and Vietnem are also investments for these merchants as you see that when the wars are over ...the real generals go to work in these countrys. GEneral Motors, General Electric, General Foods etc.
Vietnam however seems to be a different kind of strategy. One of how to keep the country in storage while under the guise of war ...bringing thier economys into the 20th century technology. Then it was decided that to keep the country in storage and competitors out ...a communist government would be put in place. Communism gaurantees that no competitors would enter the arena without authorization. Communism is the perfect tool in those days to put a nation in storage and the resources off the market while competitors out of this market.

Islamic fundamentalism appears to be the same tool to replace communism. Under strict Taliban type government it too gaurantees no progress takes place while competitors remain out. I suspect that in time when Iraq is rebuilt the nation will be turned over to Islamic Fundamentalists for storage while keeping competitors out. The goal here by the merchants appears to be one of how to keep the resources off the market and out of the hands of competitors....once again.
All one has to do to figure this out is go to the gasoline pump and realize that the numbers are not logically adding up to good nonsense.

By the way..I also suspect that in certain circles ...this is also the source of some of the animus between the French and the Americans..though I believe the average Frenchman and American havent a clue as to this history. 'But in high political circles it is known. In this I mean Americas taking over from the French in the world stage. It is not really the honor most Americans think it is. Many of us havent a clue as to how dishonorable it actually is.

To clarify..I am talking about a merchant class here..not the average Frenchman or British or American citizen. They are as much the dupe here in this history as anyone else..including the Germans and Japanese. THe Russians too. They havent a clue as to this History..most of them. They are just running a program with out thinking about the nature of a thing.

Dont misunderstand me Fennec. I am as patriotic as the next American and will fight for my land and family. I just know that the history is not all it appears to be...even in this " Current War."

So you see it does not surprise me that this person way back then in history ,Jean Jaures ,was killed. He became to much of a threat to the system which was scheduled to go into play. I have read accounts of WW1 of industrys working for weeks to produce enough artillery shells and bullets for the next scheduled offensive. This production was necessary for the war scheduled to happen for someone elses profits.

I agree with what you stated...but have stated it in a slightly different manner...the merchants are loyal to their profits not to any country.

Thanks for your post, It got my brain to thinking about this history. But we are getting away from the original premise of the first post.

Orangetom

[edit on 30-5-2007 by orangetom1999]

[edit on 30-5-2007 by orangetom1999]

Fennec,

First off let me say that when I read a post like JIMC5499's above my insticts tell me to stand at the position of attention and snap out a salute accompanied with a "oorah." !!!
JIMC5499 pretty much reflects my opinion on events and the nature of wildlife.

Concerning the French Socialist you mention Jean Jaures. I am aware as a record of history that since the defeat of Napolean at Waterloo in 1815 there continued a series of wars in Europe. Some in the 1840s and again in the 1870s along with the national animus which accompanied them. I appears that these were continued wars based on olde grudges.
This continued in France with the French Plan 17 and the German Schleiflan plan..and the British had thier plans of the encirclement. War plans were continually in the making along with armament and rearmament.

THe other thing which seems to have happened as a result of Waterloo ,though you seldom read about it directly in history books, is that the French Army seems to have become the boot lacky for the British Merchants or the Crown as it is sometimes called.or the City. THe French and their La Grande Armee was to die all over the world for British invesements. THe British Navy at sea and the French on land as the Brits were never able to afford the huge manpower for a large land army.

The intresting omission from history is that when the take or spoils were divided in true British fashion the British kept the Lions share and the French got the little outposts, coaling stations, and places which were miles from no where..like Morocco or Indochina. Anything worth Anything was in British hands or more appropriately ..the hands of the merchants or the crown.

The problem which seems to have come about eventually was that by WW1 the French were tired of dying for British profits. The French Army in the trenchs under Petan actually went on strike. They would defend France..but they would not again go over the top in these mad charges against Cannon and Machine guns. THe French were through dying for the British Merchants and being thier boot lackys. I suspect that this is part of the animosity which was between Degaull and Churchill...this history going way back.

It is at this point ..1916/1917 that the Americans came into the war to replace the French. The Americans were now to die for British or Crown intrests world wide. Since that time we have replaced the French in this endevour. I suspect this very strongly because the same pattern still occurs. Someone else gets the take of the spoils of war...not us. Yet we do the bulk of the dying and material support in these wars.
YOu remember the old saying about war..."the victors get the spoils." Since we seldom get any real spoils I conclude that we have actually lost the wars and ceded the spoils to someone else.
ONly Americans can be this naturally dumb under the banner of patiotism while paying such a huge price in blood and materials in these wars and yet continue on in such ignorance. WW1 to WW2 is a continuation of the bad policys of the merchants and their investments in Japan and Germany. Korea and Vietnem are also investments for these merchants as you see that when the wars are over ...the real generals go to work in these countrys. GEneral Motors, General Electric, General Foods etc.
Vietnam however seems to be a different kind of strategy. One of how to keep the country in storage while under the guise of war ...bringing thier economys into the 20th century technology. Then it was decided that to keep the country in storage and competitors out ...a communist government would be put in place. Communism gaurantees that no competitors would enter the arena without authorization. Communism is the perfect tool in those days to put a nation in storage and the resources off the market while competitors out of this market.

Islamic fundamentalism appears to be the same tool to replace communism. Under strict Taliban type government it too gaurantees no progress takes place while competitors remain out. I suspect that in time when Iraq is rebuilt the nation will be turned over to Islamic Fundamentalists for storage while keeping competitors out. The goal here by the merchants appears to be one of how to keep the resources off the market and out of the hands of competitors....once again.
All one has to do to figure this out is go to the gasoline pump and realize that the numbers are not logically adding up to good nonsense.

By the way..I also suspect that in certain circles ...this is also the source of some of the animus between the French and the Americans..though I believe the average Frenchman and American havent a clue as to this history. 'But in high political circles it is known.

By the way..to clarify..I am talking about a merchant class here..not the average Frenchman or British or American citizen. They are as much the dupe here in this history as anyone else..including the Germans and Japanese. THe Russians too. They havent a clue as to this History..most of them. They are just running a program with out thinking about the nature of a thing.

Dont misunderstand me Fennec. I am as patriotic as the next American and will fight for my land and family. I just know that the history is not all it appears to be...even in this " Current War."

So you see it does not surprise me that this person way back then in history ,Jean Jaures ,was killed. He became to much of a threat to the system which was scheduled to go into play. I have read accounts of WW1 of industrys working for weeks to produce enough artillery shells and bullets for the next scheduled offensive. This production was necessary for the war scheduled to happen for someone elses profits.

I agree with what you stated...but have stated it in a slightly different manner...the merchants are loyal to their profits not to any country.

Thanks for your post, It got my brain to thinking about this history. But we are getting away from the original premise of the first post.

Orangetom