Early stages of panic gun buying

What I really don't get is the common mindset encountered here at ATS.

Don't get me wrong, ATSers are great, and some of the most open minded people I have ever dealt with. But I have noticed that while the overall theme is to Deny Ignorance, and learn for yourself rather than believe what you are told by the Government, News Media, or Entertainment Industry, this philosophy seems to stop at firearms for most people here.

How is it that so many people on this site can be so intelligent, and have an open mind towards so many unpopular beliefs and theories, and go to such lengths to find the truth for themselves, and yet so many on ATS seem to be unable to grasp the concept that maybe, JUST MAYBE the truth about firearms might not be exactly what the Government/Media say it is?


I have been trying to help fight Ignorance on this subject for quite a while now, and have even offered to take members out shooting with me so that they can see for themselves what responsible firearms ownership is, and yet I have seen no progress at all. Comments like the one made by Planeman seem to be "close enough" to trying to understand for most people. I do not mean to attack anyone personally, but Planeman's comments are such a perfect example of the type of closed-minded hostility that I encounter that I will use it as an example.

Deny Ignorance is more than a nifty little slogan to put on your Avatar, it is the POINT of Above Top Secret. Insults and confrontational comments do not deny ignorance, but rather promote it.

Nicotine 1982

Planeman and I have had a go at this topic previously in other threads. No problem here as stated with Planeman's position of choosing not to own. That is thier buisness and choice.

The difference is whether one chooses to live in fear of what one does not understand or what one has been preconditioned to believe. How one chooses to break the conditioning which has so often and unknowingly been foisted on us as the new paradim in what is normal and acceptable...is up to the individual.

Choice=liberty and freedom.

Included in this is the choice to own or not own private propertys.

Emphasis here is on private...propertys..private..not public.

THe technique of various governments of high morality and ethics is to remove the privateness of the property by some rule, law , or regulation and then dispose of the property as they see fit.

This topic like so many in education and the media is a way of getting people emotionally on the string behind the topic or momentum without thinking...only emotionally being on the strings like a puppet. IT is for votes for the political partys..not for the benifit of the public.

By they way..this clearly indicates to those capable of thinking outside the box that the media, hollywood, public education, and politics are all on the same puppet strings running the same program. Do not be deceived by them. It is not difficult to connect the dots.

Since when have hollywood people...ever had yours or my intrests in mind outside of ticket sales?? What makes these people more acute in understanding or dealing with political issues than you or I???
Get the point??

I dont put much stock in Hollywood or the media which shills for both them and the body politic to handle anything. THese three "Usual Suspects" are to me one and the same. When you come to understand this it will make your view of the system in operation much different than they are wont to allow.

Public Education has become mostly a "television education" today. Majoring in emotional release...no matter how stupid.

Fear is a great motivator to many as long as there is a system in place to take care of ones fears without work and without risk. This is the slot or default politics is wont to "appear" to fulfill in the minds of the public. It is a con job..for votes.

Gotta shove off to work now,
Fuel rods to handle tonight.

Thanks,
Orangetom

I've definitely noticed the impact as well, 223 ammo simply cannot stay on the shelf at the local Gander Mountain, and what does stay on the shelf tends to be high end varmint loads and not suitable for weekend plinking. As for reasons to own an AR15 its simple, its far cheaper than most other rifles to shoot, save for a .22. It would cost me and arm, two legs and a shoulder to shoot as many rounds in my Remington 710 (chambered in 30-06) as it would my High Standard, thus I prefer the smaller and cheaper caliber.

They can take our freedom of speech, our freedom of religion, and our freedom to live a life of solitude. Just let them try to pry the guns from the hands of the willing.

Shattered OUT...

Originally, this thread was about an upsurge in gun purchases, because people are afraid of another AR ban.

"People" may well be afraid of this. Personally, I have my needs fulfilled, and have since 1993, when the first ban went into effect. Not that I mind the scare tactics; My guns have appreciated as much as most stocks.

I doubt that a new AR ban will go into effect. Don't get me wrong, the american left is definitely refocusing on outlawing guns, and in doing so incrementally. They have high hopes for this congress, and for the '08 elections.

But that's because they are naive, and out of touch. The "third rail of democrat politics" is gun control. Even before Clinton's healthcare plan ran aground, he was taking fire for his support of an AR ban. In fact, his 1993 legislation probably helped create a republican congress for the next dozen years. Not all by itself; but it helped mobilize the grass roots, and kept the NRA so well funded for another decade.

This congress can't get together on ANYTHING so far, and I'd be surprised if they could get a ban through. And every congress is a reaction to its immediate predecessor. So once they try to pass it, they'd basically better get it right, because ALL of the gun club's power will be focused on overturning any bans in the next congress.

Now that I think about it, the democrats stand to lose a lot in '08. The Republicans have literally nothing left to lose, while the democrats have raised great expectations for their leadership---which will make it hard not to dissapoint somewhat.

.

Left ``americans`` need to understand that guns are a MUST especially in this day and age. The second amendment was written for people defense against government tyranny. Just try to tell me that we're not heading this way, JUST TRY.

I was once against guns, as I was brainwashed by Michael Moore Bowling for columbine and my canadian culture... I've denied ignorance and now I know why is it important and that the number of responsable gun owners is far higher than irresponsable gun owners. Deny ignorance please... for your own protection and your family/country/constitution protection.

If the jews in Germany would have had guns, they would have at least resist the deportations... in poland they resisted, they were armed. Soviets after the 30s ban of firearms weren't able to resist Stalin dictatorship... China ban also contributed to the massacres and slavery... Many exemples in history. DENY IGNORANCE.

I do hope you realize that everyone on the left is'nt pro gun bans.

I'm one of the most far left people there are, but I believe in gun rights, though to be
honest I suppose I seem contradictory sometimes, since on one hand I believe in
allowing people to have anything short of nuclear/chemical/biological weapons,
but on the other I do believe in licensing and some regulation.

Point is it's not good to group everyone in the same category.

Iori, I appreciate your post, since I do have a tendency to forget that people don't always fit neatly into little "Liberal" or "Conservative" typecasts.

I guess that's my Ignorance to Deny...


I have been against the panic buying from the beginning. It seemed that right away people were saying "Buy now before its too late". My philosophy is "Donate now and put in work educating and fighting, and it won't BE to late". Some people actually seem to WANT another ban so that the value of their own rifles will go up.

What people fail to realise is that this isn't a ban like the previous Clinton ban, H.R. 1022 is an all encompassing, back-door to complete registration, NO SUNSET DATE ban on ALL rifles based on military weapons.
(Just so you know, most bolt action hunting rifles are based on old military rifles.)

Iori, your beliefs seem to echo my own. I believe the second refers to ARMS and not GUNS, and therefore extends to many other forms of weaponry. But I also feel that SOME things need to be registered and available only to registered private militias.

Orange, thanks. I think you really got the point of my last post.

Originally posted by Nicotine1982

. . . since I do have a tendency to forget that Some people actually seem to WANT another ban so that the value of their own rifles will go up.

Don't get me wrong, any gun ban is an unadulterated VERY BAD THING.

I would prefer that my guns would go down in value, and that I could be confident of passing them on to my kids, who could own them the way they own any tool or piece of machinery---as private property.

But, if things go wrong, I can do my part by arming other 2nd amendmenters. And if I have to make a buck to do so, well, that's the american way.

But don't get me wrong. I'd rather be free than filthy rich.



But could I please be both?

.

I think a gun ban is a great thing. I also hope to see centralised motor vehicle registration with front and rear number plates mandatory and national driving licenses, no turn on red, 75mph speed limits on interstates, fewer adverts on TV, better quality adverts on TV, no ATM charges, drinking age down to 18, alcohol sold on Sundays and many more things that would bring US closer to the civilised world.

It's not about some silly constitution written several hundred years ago before automatic rifles were invented, it's about common sense.

And you can stop exporting Starbucks while you're about it, it sucks.

[edit on 20-5-2007 by planeman]

It has everything to do with a document written hundreds of years ago because the documents were written with what was called the elastic clause. They are meant to be changed and so shall the documents change with the time.

It would be UnAmerican to throw down our arms and submit to documents written now instead of a document written hundreds of years ago. Otherwise, why would so many have died?

Lest we forget what was fought for and all that had been lost and all that had been gained.

Shattered OUT...

I agree with ShatteredSkys. It is precisely about a document written hundreds of years ago. There are still those of us here who know what it means and implys in spite of public education trying to emotionally brainwash us into the opposite (continental ) direction. Also we "non continentals" dont find it silly at all.

It is a very sad testimony to the greatness of "Humanity" that the very epitome of greatness and civilization is to lower the drinking age to 18 and then to compound this greatness we sell alcohol on Sundays. This tells me that the epitome of human achievement is alcohol consumption??? Public education at work!!!?? You have to be kidding me...this is the best that "Civilized" nations can do?? Reality check!!!??

Personally I dont care if they sell alcohol on Sundays or not...they won't get much of my moneys. I dont tell people to drink or not to drink.
That is their buisness. I just dont think people should have alcohol as a integral part of their religious beliefs that access to alcohol becomes the standard for "Civilization" and "Civilized Nations." LOL LOL talk about scrapping the bottom of the barrel. How dumb does one have to be not to understand this concept??
To sell alcohol on Sundays is a State and or Local issue..not a Federal issue. This used to be called States Rights before public education dumbed people down.
ONe of the standards to tell civilized nations from uncivilized nations is the abilityt to get alcohol on Sundays??? And at 18 years olde too!!
LOL LOL..astonishing!!!
Are we thinking yet!!!! LOL LOL LOL!!


I dont care two hoots for Starbucks..I never go there. If they are able to export or ply thier buisness on a international level...more power to them. They just wont be getting my moneys.
However...I dont pat myself on the back and expect others to conform to my expectations....I do the "Civilized " type of conduct. I vote with my dollars...not expect others to let me default through and get my way by entitlement. I dont believe that I deserve this or that or to play through by having others back up and let me play through...under the default of "Civilization." Nor do I look down on others because they go to Starbucks. I just dont go myself.
Are some of you catching on yet??

I am not impressed with the rest of the Civilized world. Ive been out there. Very little to appeal to me. Some very intresting places to visit but not to stay.. thanks.

As to turning on red...this was fuel saving measure instituted years ago to help with fuel consumption. I believe more of this is coming to save fuel.

THese are the types of people who label us "uncivilized". I suggest some people out here cant think outside of the box that passes for thinking now days. THe epitome of civilized conduct today is better television and alcohol consumption at a lower age?? No turn on red?? This is progress??This is what makes Europeans great?? YOur kidding me???
This is the kind of drivel a politician uses to con you long enough to get your vote. Wake up folks!!! Anyone catching on yet??

Some of us Yanks need to think further than the LA Lakers and American Idol. Is there any thinking going on out here??

THese are the types of people who are going to lecture us about our guns and gun ownership??
Any of you remember a slaughterhouse called Yugoalavia?? On the continent of Europe. A whole generation of young and olde people wiped out.. Do you remember how fast the European nations stepped in to stop it..right on their doorstop?? It went on for years before America stepped in and forced the hand of NATO and the UN. Any of you remember how effective the UN was in this European War? Not very effective at all. Nor the other Continental Nations. Nor the UK. This is the group who knows what is best for this country...the UN?? Anyone catching on yet...including gun control??

THese are the people trying to lecture us on gun control??

Like I said...many of you folks need to think further than the LA Lakers and American Idol. Im not impressed with the so called "Civilized World."
Most of it is full of flatulence. Especially when they have to put their moneys and blood on the line.
Dont let anyone fool you with this kind of tactic people. Try thinking some time.

Anyone catching on yet??

THanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 20-5-2007 by orangetom1999]

Planeman, what the hell?

Are you being serious or are you just trying to provoke an argument? I honestly can't tell. First you come right out and Insult gun owners and then that last post of your was purely nonsense.

I'll put the Firearms issue aside since it is already obvious that you and I don't see eye2eye on it, and examine some of the other "contributions" to this thread from your last post.

I also hope to see centralised motor vehicle registration with front and rear number plates mandatory and national driving licenses...

Vehicle registration is already mandatory, and any Law Enforcement Agency can access your information from your plates or licence, regardless of what state it was issued in. So what point could this possibly serve other than to make getting a licence harder and to put more power in the hands of the Federal Govt. rather than the State Govt.? Since there is already debate over what is being called the "National ID", and the new form of ID is VERY unpopular with those concerned about privacy or freedom, I can only assume that this was brought up to intentionally ruffle some feathers.

no turn on red, 75mph speed limits on interstates...

again, pointless. The limit is already 70mph most places, what good can the extra 5mph do anyone? As for the Right on Red thing, Orange said it best in his above post. I suggest you read it.

fewer adverts on TV, better quality adverts on TV, no ATM charges, drinking age down to 18, alcohol sold on Sundays...

None of these things are beneficial to society. Only convenient to YOU.
Who decides whether a commercial is of high enough quality to be broadcast? You? This is nothing more than a backdoor to political censorship. Fewer adds on TV? So only the really elite companies will be able to advertise?

Grow up, and wait until you reach the appropriate age to drink.

It's not about some silly constitution written several hundred years ago before automatic rifles were invented, it's about common sense.

You sir, are treading a very fine line as far as any future credibility you might have is concerned. The above quote from your post is not only immature, poorly thought out, and irresponsible, but it demonstrates your lack of education, intelligence, and/or understanding of our nation.



[edit on 21-5-2007 by Nicotine1982]

[edit on 21-5-2007 by Nicotine1982]

Good grief Nicotine1982....Wow!!

I thought I was the rabid one...I cede the floor to you!!!

Ease down olde man...take a deep breath. Breath in ...breath out Danielsan!!! Wax on , Wax off.

However I do also cede the point that Planeman may just enjoy enflaming the topic...ie getting a rise out of us.

Also cede the point that none of these things which are of the so called Civilized Nations are of great benifit to a society. I am not against drinking or many of the other things...Just in moderation. Television ...I dont hold much hope for it considering the programming is pretty bad.
I know it is bad for television when the commercial appeal and technique is more original than the programming. In like manner of voting with my dollars ,I also choose to vote with my tv remote controller and often do precisely that.

THe very shameful thing to me is that there are so many people out here who define themselves by the things they consume...conveniences and such ...not what they know or are capable of thinking for themselves.
We have seen here a clear fingerprint of that very thing and the tendency to label this "civilized." No thanks. I'm not intrested.

YOU hit the nail on the head. In the X-ring so to speak.
Thanks for your post.
Orangetom

Originally posted by planeman
I think a gun ban is a great thing. I also hope to see centralised motor vehicle registration with front and rear number plates mandatory and national driving licenses, no turn on red, 75mph speed limits on interstates, fewer adverts on TV, better quality adverts on TV, no ATM charges, drinking age down to 18, alcohol sold on Sundays and many more things that would bring US closer to the civilised world.

It's not about some silly constitution written several hundred years ago before automatic rifles were invented, it's about common sense.

And you can stop exporting Starbucks while you're about it, it sucks.

[edit on 20-5-2007 by planeman]

PLaneman, you should come to europe then, lol...

I see very responsible gun-owning people here, but the right to have a gun don't seems to be a "freedom" to me, but the opposite (apart for hunting stuff). if the potential of killing someone else with a gun is a freedom, why the potential of killing oneself with drug is forbiden?

I though with the recent massacre in virginia tech, US people would consider banning firearms once and for all a good think. In fact, in Europe, it's mostly considered a big symbol of US excess with your president.

It's something i don't truly understand . Maybe it's such a big business, like bomb making, that it appears a necessary evil to some??? But from the other side of atlantic we don't see much of the advantages of guns (appart the very good tarantino movies lol)

Fennec,

The greatest number of annual deaths in this country occurs from misuse of the automobile. Any look at statistics shows this clearly. A large number of these misuses also involve alcohol. Yet some would consider the lowering of the alcohol consumption age to 18. Astonishing.

Anyone here talking about banning automobiles??? Remember this is a government controlled enterprise. You see how effective they are at stopping this slaughter!!?? Operating a automobile is not even a right here..it is a privelege...regulated by government.
Anyone here getting a clue yet???

I also know that this occurs in Europe. ON their very high speed highways automobiles and people are often strewn over a hundred yards or so. HOw many of these involve alcohol in some form. This is not a statistic often made public here in the states about the UK or the continent.

I do not see the proposal to ban automobiles. I am wondering if the eventual high price of gasoline will solve much of this slaughter..what government cannot themselves seem to solve. A clear indication of the value of individual life.
I have been to England and seen what happens on thier highways. Im not impressed.

As to Virginia TEch....notice how effective the campus police were in this incident. As predicted..this angle is being allowed to die off in the news media and you hardly hear anything about this angle as if it dropped off the map. I believe the law suits coming out of this will be severely downplayed too.
The mistakes of the campus police in this incident are obvious. They were not able to protect the students. Nor were the local constabulary. This was already a gun free zone. Any gun ban would make no difference here. In nations with gun bans ...many already have guns. YOu just dont hear much about it..it is severely downplayed in the media to give the appearence of quiteness and stability.

It is obvious but never brought up publically that the most effective deterent to indicents like you bring to light ..is an armed knowlegable citizen. It is also obvious that the local constabulary only use these incidents to gather statistics and informations to justify more constabulary which themselves turn out to be ineffective except to gather more data.
THe most effective person/persons to protect their private propertys or persons is the armed knowlegable citizen..not the local constabulary.
THsi too is severely downplayed in the media and politics. As if politicians were somehow capable of doing this.

We are getting off the topic of the OP. I think that more people are becoming aware of this ..the ineffectiveness of the governments and institutions to protect and defend them including thier propertys. Hence the increase in the purchase of firearms.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 22-5-2007 by orangetom1999]

Well, it seems to me that they are much more police officers in US than in Europe (don't know exactly the statistics but i'm pretty sure i'm right)...

So more law enforcement officers means more money paid by you US citizens for your safety by taxes (and i'm only on inside-us violence, not about international security and army, wich is another topic). In the meantime, they are much more homicides in US per inahbitant than in france, my country (they are roughly as much killed in France in one year (60 millions people) as in Detroit city (something like 1.5 million no?). So the big question is -according to your declaration- "why pay so much for so less" if law enforcement is so useless? American taxpayers are not well-knowned for their tendency to useless expenses... Not at all to me, they seem to care much more to where and why their money go.

France (under our new president influence, Nicolas Sarkozy wich can be labeled "neo conservative") had exactly the opposite attitude to yours concerning car accidents... And it worked! 3000 lives were saved last year trough severe controls and a "zero tolerance" policy in driving. It worked, but will it last once people have realised they can still drink and drive whatever efforts the governement make? The fear of prison can hold someone, but not forever....

Here is a BIG difference between our two continents: In USA people don't wait much from their governement, Europe people are maybe more naive on this topic.

So we agree in this point: Better results are achieved with responsible citizens instead of pure enforcement, law blabering or political posture. But is it posible to make a crazy guy like the virginia tech killer (or a high on meth drug addict) a responsible citizen?????

While in US, some told me a .25 acp saturday night special (in black market or with legal means) is very easy to get at something like 100 bucks. Maybe it's naive again, but the big deal is avoiding looneys to get their hands on weapon in a gun-tolerant country. 99% percent people are okay with guns, and won't shoot anybody under normal circonstances.

The threat is the lasting 1%.

[edit on 22-5-2007 by Fennec]

Fennec,

Early morning here and I just got off work and read your post.

Am I to understand by your post that there is a substantial drinking and driving problem in 'France?? We dont often hear about it in the States.

I know for sure that there is one here and a great number of the automobile accidents are under the influence of alcohol. This weekend is a three day weekend as the Monday is a holiday. I am always reluctant to get on the roads around the holidays. I would rather be at work on the holiday weekends than out on the public roads. I prefer to take my time off during the weekdays while most must work.

The difference here Fennec verses France and much of Europe is that the public being armed is a fundamental Right of our government charter. It is not so in most nations. IN most nations it is a privelege granted by the government or the Soverign. IN most nation the governments choose to revoke the firearms privelege to the pubic.

You are correct...most folks who own guns here dont go around shooting people. It is pretty much that less than 1% and they get all the news and publicity for politicians looking for easy votes on public ignorance.
The places around most towns where you see alot of shootings here in the states have to do with drugs and also alcohol and undiciplined peoples who have access to guns and over hormonal emotions. In otherwords nightclubs.
I avoid this type of place. I have never liked this type of enviornment. What little drinking I do takes place here at my home and I dont mix alcohol and guns. NOr do I mix alcohol and gunpowder by reloading when I have been drinking. This is taboo here to me.

I am not much into hunting. I would rather go fishing. I do like to target shoot..or what is often called sport shooting. Also I have taught myself to reload my own ammunition.

More police do not necessarily make the public a safe place. It does however tend to keep politicians in office and justify bigger budgets and taxes to support bigger budgets. You are correct here.

Thanks for your post,
Orangetom

Originally posted by PaddyInf

Originally posted by iori_komei

Originally posted by C0le
...Guns don't kill anyone...

A malfunctioning one does/can.

Sorry, have to be the devils advocate.

So does a malfunctioning toaster if it is plugged in. I suppose that means that we're all gonna have to create some anti-toaster committees and design some draconian and unrealistic laws concerning the dangers of plugged in electrical goods. Naturally this would require the licencing of said goods to "protect" us all, with a 14 day wait upon purchasing if it is small enough to conceal, combined with a limit to numbers of electrical goods registered to a household in order to avoid the possibility of aggressive hoarding of electrical can openers.

Please

[edit on 19-5-2007 by PaddyInf]

LMAO I'll start one for the hell of it.
Hey, you gotta be carefull with the can opener you know.

On a more serious note: ok so they'll limit guns...now what stops the psychopaths and mentaly deranged from grabbing an ax or a chainsaw? It's not gonna cut down on murders and such.

Regards,
Maestro

Orangetom:

If by a "substancial problem" with drinking and driving in France you says that our country was 3 years ago the worst in number of death by driving in Europe, yes their was a substancial problem. Now it's belgium turn.

It's not just about alcohol (i mean, not much than in any country, let's says 50% percent of the accidents involves alcohol like anywhere else in Europe). It's too about lack of civism, people not stoping at stop signs for example. Considering alcohol, you must understand that its' VERY cultural in France and around (maybe not north europe), nobody cares if a 16 years old teen drink beer, most of time, even the parents.

Alcohol, and perticulary wine, is a big industry here with very powerfull lobbys, pretty much i think like the guns and NRA in USA.

So a zero tolerance policy was some kind of shock. I know of a friend parent (wich is alcoholic, but never had any accident) who escaped from very few serving jailtime (he got community service). It's very new here (you are no more allowed to drive high on illegal drugs since only 5 years, too), but the results are here.

I'd like to try sport shooting somedays. But i'm affraid to like it. I'm non violent, but sometimes i think i would have killed people ("deserving it" for sure, like self defense!) if i had a gun at arm's reach a some moments of my life. Call me a victim if you want, but i think i would have troubles living with it, even with the law on my side.

By the way, the reaction when someone is killed by guns in France, is something like that "the guy must have been a mobster in mob business to be killed that way".

Thank you too Orangetom, for this interesting cultural exchange.

On a more serious note: ok so they'll limit guns...now what stops the psychopaths and mentaly deranged from grabbing an ax or a chainsaw? It's not gonna cut down on murders and such.

Regards,
Maestro

Yes it would be still possible to kill people without guns (history is a pretty good proof). But it would be much more exhausting. Ever trying running with a chainsaw or an axe in the woods (for the texas chainsaw massacre touch lol)? Think it's more dangerous for you than your prey. Appart of course, if she is a blonde hippy girl falling everytime (private joke).