Jewish Holocaust?

I would apprieciate any insight into why there is debate over whether or not the holocost happened.

I do not understand what anyone would have to gain from lying about this, and have never heard any evidence to support the fact that it is a lie. However, I have never really heard any evidence to support that it happened eigther, except my public school education, and I tend to get very suspicious when laws are made to forbid voicing an opinion on something.

Please keep this civil. I am not a rascist, just someone with an open mind. If you feel like you are going to be offended because of the subject matter or if you are afraid of discussion about racial issues, or if your opinion is motivated by race alone then you need not respond. Lets keep the motto "Deny Ignorance" in mind here. I'm just trying to learn something.

Staff Edit of Title for Spelling

[edit on 5/14/2007 by Djarums]

i'd like to point out that jews weren't the only victims. there were another 4 MILLION people on top of the 6 million jewish victims. we need to remember all the victims of the most horrible act of humanity.

Not to rain on your parade...

But there are loads of threads and discussions right here, including some of mine explaining exactly why some people doubt the Holocaust.

I am one of those people and if you read this thread you will understand why.

T4H

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i'd like to point out that jews weren't the only victims. there were another 4 MILLION people on top of the 6 million jewish victims. we need to remember all the victims of the most horrible act of humanity.

so the nazi's mass exterminated 10 million people? and 6 million were jewish?.... i think you might want to check out the other threads on the holocaust as well.

Originally posted by Nicotine1982
I would apprieciate any insight into why there is debate over whether or not the holocost happened

I dont think there a serious debate into whether or not the holocaust happened. Its more about the details that have been made public then retracted. I found an interesting article that goes over the main points of what they are now calling Holocaust Revisionist Theory. I have no doubt that most people after reading the article will take to attacking the author rather than the arguments.

Holocaust Myth 101

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i'd like to point out that jews weren't the only victims. there were another 4 MILLION people on top of the 6 million jewish victims. we need to remember all the victims of the most horrible act of humanity.

What about the 20 million exterminated by Stalin. twice as many killed yet no museums or laws againts denying it.

[edit on 13/5/2007 by Conspiracy Theorist]

thank you all very much. I will look into the links you posted after work.

There have been a couple Jewish survivors of the Holocoust that have came to my school that was like 6+ years ago (how long i have been out of school). It was very traumitizing like, it would have been for survivors of our nations Civil War. the fact that (even though the Jews were not the only ones killed in it) they were persecuted. There were consentration camps like there were over here for the Japanese.

The fact that Ahmidinajhad wants to throw that away and say it never happened is funny.

The Germans (the ones who is blamed for the halocaust ) i believe made it that if you believe the Holocaust NEVER happened then you can face up to three years in prison.

The fact that Ahmidinajhad wants to throw that away and say it never happened is funny.

That is the kind of racists nonsense I was trying to avoid.

Lots of good info guys, thank you very much.

That was not racist. He really wants to say the Holocaust never happened. I know, you would have liked me to say there are those who want to say it never happened right?

You said about having a reason to lie, well they pull the sympathy card to much which makes me think they could of lied just to get pity.
As for the death count, you will find that over 40 million civilians died, out of that only 6 million were Jewish.

Also, it kind of sickens me that the Jewish refused to fight and gave themselves up, if they had got up guns and helped fight then the war would of been over much sooner and many more lives would have been saved.

Keep in mind things like the Christian Crusades and historic wars claimed many more than 6 million.

There is also the fact that how could the Jewish people have known there were 6 million? There were no records, so that could be a lie.

And as for evidence, you will find that most of it comes from the Jewish, since there are no official records of the holocaust, there is not really any official evidence that it did happen.

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist
What about the 20 million exterminated by Stalin. twice as many killed yet no museums or laws againts denying it.

well, stalin's purges were political, hitler's were genocide. there's a difference. and the nazi party is illegal in europe because it started a world war.

stalin didn't organize the systematic destruction of entire peoples, he organized the destruction of his enemies. it also didn't take WAR to end communism in russia, yet it took the end of a massive world war (that hitler started) to end nazism.

Originally posted by HazesEmail
Also, it kind of sickens me that the Jewish refused to fight and gave themselves up, if they had got up guns and helped fight then the war would of been over much sooner and many more lives would have been saved.

they were an underwhelming minority in germany, they would've just been wiped out then and there. and by the time the polish jews were given the choice of fighting back or giving up they were faced with TANKS and an ARMY.

Keep in mind things like the Christian Crusades and historic wars claimed many more than 6 million.

there's a difference between a WAR and a GENOCIDE.

There is also the fact that how could the Jewish people have known there were 6 million? There were no records, so that could be a lie.

no, there WERE records.

And as for evidence, you will find that most of it comes from the Jewish, since there are no official records of the holocaust, there is not really any official evidence that it did happen.

yes, there is evidence that it happened. like the DEATH CAMPS and the official records of the nazis.

^

after reading through all the sources that WIKI posts, i cant help but wonder, why are there no official government documents to refer to.

everything that is posted as source, is from private publishers and authors. sure a museum, but wouldn't that fall under private?

why are there no military documents posted as reference.

most of the references come from very few witnesses from what i can tell, but the story is retold over and over by literally 100's of people with no solid connection to the events to ever have witnessed it.

Where are these German records that say:

John doe------we stole all his goods------then we burned him alive with no fuel.

where are these documents?

Dunno about documents. but there's enough recorded film of skin & bones dead victims that I've had the trouble just watching, to tell me something unnatural killed them. Also seen the apparent Nazi Guards and their Wives pick-up and carry the bodies to a mass grave after surrender to the west.
I can't say what I'd seen on film was an imaginary thing.

Dallas

Originally posted by Dallas
Dunno about documents. but there's enough recorded film of skin & bones dead victims that I've had the trouble just watching, to tell me something unnatural killed them. Also seen the apparent Nazi Guards and their Wives pick-up and carry the bodies to a mass grave after surrender to the west.
I can't say what I'd seen on film was an imaginary thing.

Dallas

oh people died. food was scarce, the allies had germany totaly blocked off. there was typhus, zyclone b was used to delouse prisoners.

Ive seen pictures of pits of bodies, but ive never seen pictures of people in gas chambers or in ovens.


and to answer my own question about the nuremberge trials and where is this so called documentation. apparently the documents have been locked into storaga in a small German town, all efforts thus far to obtain access from any country has failed, only recently has Germany anounced that it will co-operate in allowing access to these documents, i found the page earlier but lost it.

this is nice little tidbit though

The trials were conducted under their own rules of evidence; the indictments were created ex post facto and were not based on any nation's law; the tu quoque defense was removed; and some claim the entire spirit of the assembly was "victor's justice". Article 19 of the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal Charter reads as follows:

"The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence. It shall adopt and apply to the greatest possible extent expeditious and nontechnical procedure, and shall admit any evidence which it deems to be of probative value."

en.wikipedia.org...

that will never get old for me. gotta love justice. and to ad to that they make it a law to question the outcome of the trial.

this world is MAD

Sorry tom goose, I didn't realize your talking about the trials of suspected nazi death camp killers of woman, children and men.

Thought this thread was trying to imperialize no such deaths occured. But in all honesty the trials were conducted in, from Ive read, a fair and impartial way .. and most death sentenced were deferred, were they not?

The Jewish were prosecuted by their task masters and sentenced to all kinds of torment. filling removals and host ungodly stuff and for why?, liberal denial, I think.

So yes, I'd gladly take on the deniers as a principal that these people and the children may quite possibly been denied life under the Nazi thumb.

Dallas

the blatent b.s about questioning wether the holocaust happened is an attempt to associate stupidity and ridiculousness with questioning anything about the holocaust in general

the fact is that many people think the holocaust resulted in primarily jewish deaths

when in fact many other catholics and other nationalities as well were targeted.

the reason the jewish peole are highlighted in paticular is to hide the zionist involvement because the zionists posed as jews and thus by shining the light on primarily the jewish deaths in the holocaust it would seem a good way for the zionists to hide and also label anyone who questions the holocaust an anti-semite

which also happens to be the death of your reputation

Originally posted by HazesEmail
You said about having a reason to lie, well they pull the sympathy card to much which makes me think they could of lied just to get pity.
As for the death count, you will find that over 40 million civilians died, out of that only 6 million were Jewish.

Only? ONLY!?!
First off the 6 million Jewish deaths, and approximately 4 million gays/political dissidents/gypsies/mentally and physically disable etc were PLANNED by the German Government.
They wanted them dead! They wanted to wipe Jews, gypsies etc off the face of the Earth.
Also 6 million amounts to around 1/6 of those deaths so it is actually quite a lot.

Originally posted by HazesEmail
Also, it kind of sickens me that the Jewish refused to fight and gave themselves up, if they had got up guns and helped fight then the war would of been over much sooner and many more lives would have been saved.

Imagine if, after five years of governmental persecution, Muslims in the U.S decided to begin an uprising.
Yes, it may seem like they have a chance, however we must remember that:
Hitler insituted gun control laws.
Explosive materials would be hard to get a-hold of etc etc
Generally it would have been completely hopeless, as the 6 million were originally scattered across Continental Europe.
They were then either sent to concentration camps, or moved to ghettoes in cities.
Also you might want to check here, and see the futility of a Jewish uprising.
[link]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising[/link]

Originally posted by HazesEmail
Keep in mind things like the Christian Crusades and historic wars claimed many more than 6 million.

Yes but that was a war, not a genocide (though in some lights it could be misconstrued as such). Also that was in the past, and accurate records would be hard to get ahold of.

Originally posted by HazesEmail
There is also the fact that how could the Jewish people have known there were 6 million? There were no records, so that could be a lie.

This is the funniest anti-Holocaust existance argument.
The Nazi government held itinerant records from every concentration camp and ghetto in Europe.
Also you seem to completely ignore all the documentation, pics etc.

Originally posted by HazesEmail
And as for evidence, you will find that most of it comes from the Jewish, since there are no official records of the holocaust, there is not really any official evidence that it did happen.

See above.
Also most of the remaining records were found when Allied forces liberated Germany, and concentration camps.
Also, as I believe the Nazi's had at least average intelligence/cunning, wouldn't they of started burning records (which they did) to stop others from prosecuting them?

Originally posted by tom goose
oh people died. food was scarce, the allies had germany totaly blocked off. there was typhus, zyclone b was used to delouse prisoners.

No, it wasn't.
You seem to hold a massive misconception about the toxicity of Zyklon B.
Also wasn't the delousing idea told to certain Jews before being sent to the gas chambers?

Originally posted by tom goose
Ive seen pictures of pits of bodies, but ive never seen pictures of people in gas chambers or in ovens.

'Now Heinrich I want you to stand inside the gas chamber to take photos of the dying Rats. What's that? Nah, the gas is harmless to us ubermensch'
Come on.
First off there were no frickin' windows on the gas chambers! How the hell, unless they sent a guard in, would they take photos safely?
Ditto for the oven argument.
Also U.S soldiers could only take photos of the body pits as the gas chambers were clear, and the bodies had been destroyed in the ovens

this is about the dumbest topic

Just ask the Germans if it happened
what about all the testimonials at Nuremberg



they admit it, they write about it and they pass laws and erect memorials
to the victims, thousand eye witness accounts by GI's

not to mention my dad who was in the army in 1945 in Germany
and saw it

20 million others were killed, too and its Just important too remember that
but put the pipe down and wade on out of the river denial

unless you want to believe the ranting of and antisemitic authors

Sad, sad, sad

After spending literally weeks and weeks of reading revisionist material, and reporting back about it on ATS, noone seems to care or bother to even read the threads on the Holocaust, but rather make the same old biased and ignorant remarks over and over again.

What is the point I´m still posting at all? Who am I trying to convince or inform? Helloooooo?

If there is one place to start your journey it is here. (While it is still there for all to see)

Read all materials you can find with an open mind, and then come back here and say the Holocaust happened as it is written in history books. Are you deaf? Blind? Manipulated? All of the above? Open your eyes and look at events objectively and with an open mind if you wish to achieve progress and insight.

But no, that would be too much to ask to think for yourselves for a change... I give up.