America's death toll on the world: 27,000,000++

Originally posted by semperfortis
etc

So do you actually have an argument or dispute about any of the actual numbers, you will you just try to disrepresent my post and my logic and hope to divert peoples attention away from any posts that you don't agree with?

Be sure to go for the easy ones that were already covered...

[edit on 14-5-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by AllSeeingI
27 MILLION and people get mad when they say the Jewish holocaust of ww2 didnt exist when in fact we are denying a much great holocaust perpetrated by our own nation...

As far as I know I'm the first to start using the term "American Imperialism Denier", right at this very website, in print. It wouldn't surprise me if others have pointed it out first, in fact, it would be a disappointment to the idea of rational thought if others haven't first.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
As far as I know I'm the first to start using the term "American Imperialism Denier", right at this very website

Well it just means many other things like sheeple for example.

You can easily spot 'those' who understands that (the government doesn't represent the people) on this website.

[edit on 14-5-2007 by selfless]

Originally posted by Vitchilo
On this thread and in the US, there are 3 type of people.

Objective people who just state the facts without patriotic sentiment.
Blind people who deny reality to save themselves from anger against their god that is their government.
Blind people who just deny everything because they say it's only US bashing.
[edit on 14-5-2007 by Vitchilo]

From an objective standpoint, I am not any of those three people, so your statement is already false. I could never simplify people like you just have because it is never correct. How can you possibly group an entire country, or the incredible and vastly different members of this site, into three basic categories?

I am objective and not patriotic, but I don't fit the third description. I am not here to state facts, i was here to post an opinion, and that opinion had no bearing on where i live.

I do everything in my power to not deny reality. I don't see anything, let alone the government of all things, as being a god. Let me make it very clear that I do not see gathering up a bunch of people and going to yell at the White House about all the people the country has killed as being necessary to seeing reality clearly.

I absolutely am not defending the United States or saying this thread is 'US bashing'. If I was born in any other country and was reading about how many people that country had killed, it still wouldn't cause me to start formulating a plan to stop the killing.

I know people say individuals can make a difference, and they most certainly can. However, those individuals are not the ones reading this thread. Even if 1,000 people reading this packed up, headed off to Washington DC right now and were picketing by the morning, it wouldn't change anything. People would pass and wonder what the fuss was about and carry on with their day. It might get a mention on the news, but probably not nation wide.

That isn't to say someone, or everyone, who is reading this couldn't end up being a person who really makes a difference, but I highly doubt this thread would have been the catalyst . It seems that the type of person who would be serious about getting the gears in motion to change something so significant would already know this information , and that it wouldn't be vital to their plan. Letting the government know what they already knew isn't going to change anything, and letting the public know isn't going to cause enough of an uproar to tackle the government.

Believe it or not, I don't think these numbers would surprise a large proportion of the United States. Almost everyone here reads news about all the "awful" things other countries do, and I feel a large portion of those people instinctively understand that our country does exactly the same. I am in complete agreement with the statement that the people of the United States don't care enough about it to actually do anything, but if you aim your focus at any other country, you'll find the same.



[edit on 5/14/2007 by Ack]

Be sure to go for the easy ones that were already covered...

YES!!!!

The effective argument ALWAYS elicits the Personal Attack...

Thank you for proving my points


Semper

So using your line of thinking anyone killed by gun or bomb would be the fault of the chinese..as they invented gun powder?????

Right?

And of course any deaths by rocket or missiles would be the fault of the germans.

[edit on 5/14/2007 by Prove_it]

When countries clash sadly people die. As humans we kill our own species. Why is that? War is the curse of the Earth. Instead of bickering about how many people died because of America. I think we should focus on the more series issues thats going to affect our entire future. I do believe that is more important instead all this bickering we're doing.

What about the NAU? If they come in power their maybe lots more dead then 27 million.

I appreciate the OP's attempt to make a point about our bloodlust as a nation. It's true to an extent. We meddle around too much in other peoples' affairs and take other peoples' lives rarely into account. When I say "we" I mean our government though, because I am sitting here with no control over any of those killings.

That being said ... there's lies, damn lies, and statistics.

www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov...

There have been 506,138 deaths due to automobile accidents in the U.S. from 1994 to 2005 alone. Now using your logic, the whole world is to blame. Kias, blame South Korea. Toyotas, blame Japan. And what about Canadian switches? Mexican assembly? After all these countries supplied parts and/or labor of the vehicles involved in these fatal accidents.

Obviously these claims are ludicrous.

My point is death is all around. Here are some global stats for you:

www.who.int...

I chose this site because, honestly, it was an easy hit in google.

In 1997, there were a total of 52.2 million deaths globally alone.

17.3 million were due to infectious and parasitic diseases, 15.3 million due to circulatory diseases and 6.2 million due to cancer. Now, again, I see your point and basically agree with your principles. But 27 million over our country's history is about half of worldwide deaths in any given year. That number doesn't seem so large now, does it?


EDIT: I'm grammatically challenged

[edit on 5/14/2007 by Fiverz]

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
CIA essentially puts Saddam hussein into power
www.google.com...
US arms Hussein
en.wikipedia.org...
Hussein goes to war with Iran in 1980: 875,000+ dead

Well, if you want to put it that way then the U.S. is nothing more than an extension of the British, who in turn were established and brought together by the Romans. Imperialist for sure but Ceaser is to blame for this whole mess. That is if "guilty by association" is allowed when citing death tolls.

It has become apparent that there is a fine line between being a conspiracy theorist and Anti-American. I often wonder if this trend of resentment occured right before the fall of the Roman Empire. With so much luxury and yet you stand here and bitch about your own counrty. Like has been stated, if you don't like the US, then denounce your citizenship and leave.

I'm not even going to start with the ad hominems against this... well, we'll just refer to him as the "poster". But we have witnessed folks is a straw man and a red herring.

First of all, there was NO U.S. when this land was colonized and the natives were killed or diseased. These were English, Spanish, French, Portugese among other settlers. So, as a result, it is beyond preposterous to attribute ANY of those deaths to the United States.

Additionally, the "poster" proposes another fallacious argument to begin blaming U.S. "Imperialism" for the deaths of innocent civilians at the hands of their dictators - such as Saddam Hussein. If this "poster" had even a teeny-tiny inkling of a clue (or a brain) they would understand that EVERY COUNTRY in the world pursues foreign polciy that is in it's own best interest. The dichotomy presented here is a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't argument" - as is presented with putting Saddam in power and then toppling his regime.

If we really want to understand this thread, we need to examine the motivation fo the poster - pure anti-Americanism! Such hatred for a nation that affords his freedom to be blissfully ignorant and spout off while demonstrating his profound lack of understanding for history is hypocrisy at it's finest. My only suggestion to the "poster" is to go ahead and pack up your things and move to one of those better countries that you hinting toward. They would be happy to have you - while the rest of us would be happy to be rid of you.

Right can we get some things straight instead of posting things like "he invented the gun, hes responsible for millions of deaths" posts, this isn't what Ignorance is talking about. The U.S.A carried out terrorist attacks to overthrow a democratic elected leader just because he was selling oil to the Russians, this resulted in Iran turning into a facist islamic state. Its the same story over and over for each country Bay of Pigs, Angola, Chile the list goes on and on. This isn't simply "selling weapons" to another country they are basically misleading people into warfare for there own greed, having no regard to life.

You can't just say "oh well what can we do about it now", because as history shows it repeats its self over and over again until people relise and learn from history what is going on and put a stop to it. Yes its easy to say but other countries kill not just Americans, but IIB is on about his own country. If you were going by my country in the last 500 years the total would be shocking. The only way to put a stop to this is to learn from history and past events, not live in ignorance and say everything will be ok, power corrupts the mind and goverments have way to much power. A lot of people have no idea of war, the people that do don't want it. It's easy for people to say make a great big carpark out of Iran because it doesn't effect them. Maybe there is hope for America if Ron Paul gets elected and gets rid of the CIA.

So, IgnoranceIsntBlisss, what are you doing to stop American imperialism?

There is no point to this thread other than for you to exercise your right to bite the hand that feeds you, and provides you with the right to do so.

Originally posted by Inannamute
Take out the UK, france and russia..

Then tell me how the outcome would have been..

My point was that it was an allied victory.. My country, my family bore losses just as grievous as those to the US, with a far lower capacity to tolerate them.. (higher percentage of the population).. Did they somehow not fight as hard?.. How about the Soviet Union?.. they did nothing either, right? The US has NO standing upon which to claim being the saviors of the world, unless you acknowledge the others that fought and died WITH them, in most cases for years longer..

I know you have a deep emotional attachment to your family fighting and dying in WWII. I'm not going to insult that. But the US was, and still is, the only country in the world to (at the time) develop (and still today) to detonate an atomic weapon. And we used it on Japan and forced their withdraw, which ended the pacific run by the axis powers.

We saved the world. Not only did we single handedly stop the second largest naval force in the world (Japan) we caused the complete surrender of that country. Given enough time, I'm confident the United States would have won the war ourselves had the UK and France been taken out.

As a matter of fact, had it not been for US Bombing raids on German scientific research centers, and sending re-inforcements to you brits, your days were numbered. I'm just talking war here - but lets move to intel - contrary to popular belief - british intelligence was horrible. If it were not for US Forces capturing the enigma (amoung other intel ops) - a SIGNIFICANT advantage for all the allied forces during WWII - we all may have continued to take severe losses from the axis powers.

Sorry, but you need to do some more research before you go around trying to steal America's earned RIGHT to state that we saved the world during WWII.

Originally posted by semperfortis
Why is my postulations any more "Off the deep end" than yours?

I fail to see how my connections, and they are all connected, are any more fanciful than what you fantasized about in the OP..

Of course you do. You can't even argueany of the points, instead you must disrepresent my overall jist in hopes of some sort of 'victory'. Show how it's a "fantasy", otherwise you're being immature / irrational.

But to paraphrase a common quote on here, "One should never argue with a singular minded individual, it serves no purpose and only upsets the "Individual."

Semper

Maybe you're right, perhaps I shouldn't have responded to you as you were offended from the start, and you're incapable of seeing any other view, for now. It's because the mind is resistant to change, in fact your experience here won't even have much of an effect on the established physical networks of neurons in your brain -that are used to only seeing the one side- until you sleep tonight. Night by night, network by network, attitutde by attitude there is some hope for you. It took even me a long time to be able to see the truth as full as I 'm now able to.

Originally posted by jsobecky
So, IgnoranceIsntBlisss, what are you doing to stop American imperialism?

Everything I can think of. Got any ideas? It all begins with understand what the problem is. It goes like this:
You have cancer.
Not only do you not realize it, you don't even know cancer exists.
Good luck curing your cancer.

Do you choose to understand the nature of 'your' problem, or do you choose to those who try to show you?

I'm beginning to gain some grasp of what it must be like for the doctors who have to tell the spouse that their better half isn't going to make it.

Has America killed anybody, or Communism? I don't believe so.

Those that have committed these various atrocities were humans, people, motivated by abstract ideas given names like 'democracy' or 'nationalism' given names that somehow help us distance ourselves from the brutal realities they encompass.

Each one of those 27,000,000 deaths, and the 93 million or whatever attributed to Communism, and all the other statistics of mortality being bandied about in this thread, was ultimately the result of one person's decision to act in the manner prescribed by the establishment under which they lived.

The evils aren't in the big intangible ideas, they are in the ways individual humans choose to live their lives. Blaming a nation or an ideology for the f___ed-up state of human nature won't solve anything at all.

Originally posted by estar
Right can we get some things straight instead of posting things like "he invented the gun, hes responsible for millions of deaths" posts, this isn't what Ignorance is talking about. The U.S.A carried out terrorist attacks to overthrow a democratic elected leader just because he was selling oil to the Russians, this resulted in Iran turning into a facist islamic state. Its the same story over and over for each country Bay of Pigs, Angola, Chile the list goes on and on. This isn't simply "selling weapons" to another country they are basically misleading people into warfare for there own greed, having no regard to life.

...

It's nice to see some people in here who actually understand what I'm talking about before making knee-jerk (conditioned reflex) posts to attack me.

If people would actually follow up on some of the links it's right in there.

Originally posted by The Parallelogram
Blaming a nation or an ideology for the f___ed-up state of human nature won't solve anything at all.

I blame the leaders who drive US first, but then when people go to extremes supporting the atrocities (mass killings and genocides) and attacking me for telling them about their 'disease' it starts becoming a challenge to not shift some of that blame towards them. However, I understand better than most that we've been indoctrinated -with imperialist / violence / warrior / irrational behavior pattern inducing propaganda- our entire lives.

Originally posted by semperfortis

Be sure to go for the easy ones that were already covered...

YES!!!!
The effective argument ALWAYS elicits the Personal Attack...
Thank you for proving my points

Semper

I didn't feel like recapping the "indians" and Filipinos. I'd like to be challenged on some other things I posted up, which are the ones that really make or break your generalized attacks on me (all you're really going after here). I could use the 'excercize', some of those listed were new to me that day. Practice makes Perfect; remember what I said about the mind being resistent to change: it works both ways.

[edit on 14-5-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]