Two of ufology's finest attend IIIHS conference this weekend

Originally posted by schuyler

Your post above reflects an absolutely classic fallacy called "argumentum ad hominem," an argument against the person rather than the issue.

That's funny - the Greer debunkers always do the EXACT SAME THING!

Instead of dealing with the serious and urgent issues that Greer and TDP brought to our attention, like the shadow government and suppression of critical technologies and the weaponization of space - the focus is kept on Greer, on calling him a fraud, cult leader etc, and anyone who supports him is equated with a brainwashed cultist, and on and on and on....

It becomes clear after a while that things like this are done very deliberately. There are people out there that would not want dozens or hundreds or thousands of us on here putting our heads together and coming up with real ways to stand up to NWO. So instead the focus is kept on attacking Greer's credibility and keeping everybody tied up in these absolutely pointless wars over Greer.

Unfortunately, when there is a holding back, people make up what they don't know. Rather than the government holding back on a crashed saucer or a visit from 'aliens,' we now have this vast worldwide conspiracy theory involving the New World Order Masonic, crypto-fascist black ops men in black enslaving the entire world's population in poverty while making fortunes on the last drop of oil selling us out to the reptilians and laughing about it the entire time. And people KNOW for a FACT that this is all TRUE!

Piffle.

I assume you're referring to my comments here. I want to make it clear that I never said NWO was a Masonic conspiracy, and I never said anything about reptilians.

But the stuff about NWO, fascists, black operations and MIBs etc, that stuff IS TRUE. And there's plenty of evidence for it.

If you think about it, for most of our history we have been Ruled. In past centuries it was the Kings and lords and nobles and the Church.

These days we are still ruled, but the power has shifted into the hands of the Bankers and private Corporations (fascists).

There have always been Power-obsessed people conspiring in secret for More Power. So, is it really a big surprise to find that today we are Ruled by a relative handful of superwealthy, powerful people who conspire in secret? Is it really so hard to believe?

Or do you actually find it easier to believe that the people really re-choose their leaders every four years - a concept which is a complete JOKE?

And what I see on these forums are starry-eyed people wonderously following the latest guru of fashion who takes them down this road of belief to the point they will believe anything they are told! And when people like me look at this and say, "Hey, this is looking like a cult." the believers lash out angrily and say, "It's NOT a cult. You can't LEAVE a cult!!' (Who made up that rule?)

That is one of the defining characteristics that makes a Cult a Cult, the fact that once you're in it, you're not allowed to leave!

If being a Cult was just about having a spiritual leader that gathers people and teaches them things - then ALL churches and organized religions would be Cults!

People like you and tezzajw have been using that word completely incorrectly. But of course, Cult is such a loaded word, that it is an excellent way to demonize Greer and the people who support him. Tezzajw certainly knows this and does it deliberately, I don't know about you.....

Originally posted by torsion

They all have the same message - the planet is in grave danger and only the ETs have the solution - and that solution can only be learned by subscribing to their organisation belief system and purchasing their products.

The planet IS in danger, and we don't need Greer to tell us that; the evidence is everywhere.

And no, it is not only the ETs that have the solution - we humans have these technologies too, have had them for at least 100 years, but they are sitting on black-shelves in underground bases and things like that.

And no, you don't have to subscribe to Greer's beliefs or purchase his products to understand that.

Please understand this one critical idea. The shadow government, THE REAL ENEMY, actively withholds technology from the masses. Greer is ONE messenger, one out of MANY, to provide us with evidence of this.

It is not necessary for you to ally yourself with Greer in order to understand this one concept, get mad about it, as many others have, and start fighting to change it.....

We have seen posters on ATS who are directly involved with these 'spiritual' groups- Michael Horn (Billy Meier/FIGU) and Richard LaLancette (Steven Greer/CSETI) and they both proved to be aggresive, rude and supportive of cleary hoax material. Because of their attitudes they have both been banned from this free forum.

You'd be angry too if you were constantly under attack, being equated with a brainwashed cult follower, your every word questioned and ridiculed....

Originally posted by millerman
I assume you're referring to my comments here. I want to make it clear that I never said NWO was a Masonic conspiracy, and I never said anything about reptilians.

But the stuff about NWO, fascists, black operations and MIBs etc, that stuff IS TRUE. And there's plenty of evidence for it.

Uh, no, actually. I didn't have you in mind at all. You are taking what I said much too personally. I lump all that stuff together as typical conspiracy crapola, that's all. I think most of the conspiracy stuff is the product of deranged minds. If you say so on the true stuff. I have no evidence for that, but apparently you have, for one reason or another, become convinced or have secret information to the contrary...

That is one of the defining characteristics that makes a Cult a Cult, the fact that once you're in it, you're not allowed to leave!

I don't think so. I think you made that up. Look, I criticized chamby over taking apart posts, chopping them up and criticizing every few words, so I'm just going to stop right here. I think these points are all valid to discuss, but perhaps they ought to be broken out one idea at a time. After you quote, I quote, you quote, I quote the messages become so illegible that it's unclear who said what It's really not worth the trouble to wade through a fourth or fifth generation post.

Originally posted by schuyler

Originally posted by millerman

But the stuff about NWO, fascists, black operations and MIBs etc, that stuff IS TRUE. And there's plenty of evidence for it.

Uh, no, actually. I didn't have you in mind at all. You are taking what I said much too personally. I lump all that stuff together as typical conspiracy crapola, that's all. I think most of the conspiracy stuff is the product of deranged minds. If you say so on the true stuff. I have no evidence for that, but apparently you have, for one reason or another, become convinced or have secret information to the contrary...

Well, good grief! What do you think the whole point of TDP and the NPC conference was? A significant part of it was to establish that this "shadow government" exists, black covert projects exist, reverse-engineering of ET craft has been going on for at least 60 years, and the shadow government is actively withholding much technology from the public - most significantly the technologies involving vacuum or zero-point energy and anti-gravity.

Did you even watch the NPC Disclosure conference?

That is one of the defining characteristics that makes a Cult a Cult, the fact that once you're in it, you're not allowed to leave!

I don't think so. I think you made that up.

Cult:
- a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
- the members of such a religion or sect.

CSETI members all have their own lives, homes, families and jobs. They are not a cult.

Originally posted by millerman
Did you even watch the NPC Disclosure conference?

Yeah, actually I did. Wasn't that the one where Greer said that previously (i.e.: Not at the conference itself) an alien flew in the window of a room where he and several people were to thank him for all the work he was doing on the aliens' behalf. He also said the US has been regularly shooting down alien ships with particle beam weapons. He then shuddered and looked askance at the audience, and said "you haven't seen nothin' until you've seen particle beam weapons" (as if he had) and mentioned the Biblical quote: "They know not what they do" which refers to Jesus telling the Holy Father to go easy on the Jews even though they were stringing him up. I'm paraphrasing. Those weren't his EXACT words, but a pretty close approximation, I think.

Yup, I saw it. This is a perfect example of why Greer has lost the middle, and catered to extremists. It does othing to advance thecauseand only serves to alienate people who were otherwise interested. Too bad.

Cult:
- a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
- the members of such a religion or sect.

CSETI members all have their own lives, homes, families and jobs. They are not a cult.

Notice two things in your definiion: (1) the word "often" does not mean "all the time" or even "most of the time." The word basically means "many times." (2) Nothing is mentioned about the freedom to leave.

I also see that you have taken your definition out of context and quoted only two of the defintions that are favorable to your cause. (That's cheating, you know!) This is the entire thing:

The Random House Unabridged Dictionary definitions are:

1. A particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies;
2. An instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers;
3. The object of such devotion;
4. A group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc;
5. Group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols;
6. A religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader;
7. The members of such a religion or sect;
8. Any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.

Out of the eight definitions you chose two: 6&7 and conveniently left out the others. Isay: BUSTED! :-)

Originally posted by schuyler

Originally posted by millerman
Did you even watch the NPC Disclosure conference?

Yeah, actually I did. Wasn't that the one where ....

No, that was the Conscious Life Expo. I was talking about the National Press Club conference, the one with 20+ witnesses testifying.

I also see that you have taken your definition out of context and quoted only two of the defintions that are favorable to your cause. (That's cheating, you know!) This is the entire thing:

The Random House Unabridged Dictionary definitions are:

1. A particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies;
2. An instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers;
3. The object of such devotion;
4. A group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc;
5. Group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols;
6. A religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader;
7. The members of such a religion or sect;
8. Any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.

Out of the eight definitions you chose two: 6&7 and conveniently left out the others.

Yes, because by 1 - 5, any church or organized religion or spiritual practice could be considered a cult. So unless you want to say that for example the Roman Catholic Church is a cult, or Judaism or Islam is a cult.... I thought it best to make a distinction between Cults and organized religion/spirituality.

Would you say that for example, 5 or 10 people praying together in the woods, is a Cult? Do we need to take this that far?

Originally posted by millerman

No, that was the Conscious Life Expo. I was talking about the National Press Club conference, the one with 20+ witnesses testifying.

Oh, THAT one. Absolutely! (I spaced on the acronym. Sorry.) I watched every second and the extended videos as well. I've seen parts of it multiple times. Fascinating stuff, largely credible witnesses. That had me excited. National Press Club. Geez, it can't get any better than that! I really thought things were going somewhere after that. I have consistently stated and never waivered that I thought Greer did a masterful job pulling that off. I have never posted anything negative about that conference. Oh, wait. I DID question the presence of Wendelle Stevens, but I think that's the only thing even slightly negative I've ever said. It was in Spring, 2001, right? Alas....well, you know.

Cults? Eh, I like Tom Wolfe's definition. "A cult is a religion without political power." Christianity was a cult--until Constantine.

Originally posted by millerman
Cult:
- a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.

Damn, I'm off the boards for a day and I have millerman typing about me behind my back. Why would you type about me, millerman, instead of typing about the thread's topic?

Ok, Cult Greer. Yummy, something that I can sink my teeth into.

Your definition of a Cult is quoted above, millerman. Let me zero in on the important bits for you: "a religion or sect considered to be false".

Greer claims to levitate, but can't do it = false.
Greer claims to vector UFOs, but can't do it = false.
Greer claims that moths are ET = false.

On three counts Cult Greer has proven to be a Cult, as it is FALSE.

"members often living outside of conventional society" means that Cult Greerians don't have to live on a ranch in a barn. Often means that while it may be the norm for Cults to practice secular living, they don't always have to. From a different perspective though, with their guitar-playing-Mexican-soldier beliefs, the Cult Greerians could be considered to be secular from a normal, THINKING society.

Cult Greer is fake, false, however you want to define it.

Son of *****! Another Greer debate.... it will never end until either Greer organizes 'The' disclosure event or he is sued for fraud or has people comit ritual suicide (all of which I'm not sure will happen soon).

I noticed a Tom Wolf reference? Hate to go off topic yet again, but this post has derailed anyway and it's friday and I'm tipsy. I recently read Electric Kool Aid Acid test (yes, I'm a tad behind the times!) and I must say Tom Wolf is incredibly smart, observant, and sarcastic, really a great insight and book.

Regarding the levitation etc....

Not to either support or debunk greer, but..... the levitation, vectoring in UFO's etc... If you are to believe his book (which is a large step I must admit) levitation isn't something he can do on demand, which is convenient of course, but hey if you randomly reached new heights meditating on a couple of occassions, then who knows..... Vectoring in UFO's does seem like something he can do on demand, which is why he says he was able to organize the DP in the first place, but he says he has been threatend by the evil covert world we hear so much about, and that if he ever does this on say, Fox news, they control all the satellites so they would either make sure there are technical difficulties or spin it to thier favor, hence the disclosure project having 'technical' issues streaming during the first hour. This is what he says, and it is a self fullfilling prophesy of course, but if it is true, and who the hell knows, then even if he does, you would have to be there to believe it. So, someone in CSETI needs to get some kick ass video and put it on youtube. But I suspect even then there would be doubters. Posting Mothra doesn't help support this conclusion for sure. That Mothra poster of the old horror movie is great by the way. So time will hopefully tell............. but I could see this debate going on forever too.......

At the least, we all agree UFO's are real and something is going down, so we are all on common ground, we just disagree and don't know the details.

I personallly believe, based on testimony, there are UFO's, there is a covert group that works on this, and other than that, I have no idea and probably never will until disclosure happens.

Originally posted by tezzajw
Damn, I'm off the boards for a day and I have millerman typing about me behind my back.

Not behind your back, I'm well aware that you read these threads.

Ok, Cult Greer. Yummy, something that I can sink my teeth into.

Your definition of a Cult is quoted above, millerman. Let me zero in on the important bits for you: "a religion or sect considered to be false".

Greer claims to levitate, but can't do it = false.
Greer claims to vector UFOs, but can't do it = false.
Greer claims that moths are ET = false.

On three counts Cult Greer has proven to be a Cult, as it is FALSE.

My question to you is, if you have say 12 people going off to the woods, or the beach, or the desert, or the mountains, to pray or meditate together, like a spiritual retreat - should these people be persecuted and witch-hunted, accused of being a Cult, told they are "brainwashed" or "drinking the Kool-Aid"....?

Is gathering and praying in groups a crime or something to be ashamed of now?

I'm not seeing why 20 or 30 people going out to the desert to meditate together should be called a Cult and ridiculed and persecuted....? If they are not harming anyone or doing anything wrong?

Originally posted by millerman
My question to you is, if you have say 12 people going off to the woods, or the beach, or the desert, or the mountains, to pray or meditate together, like a spiritual retreat - should these people be persecuted and witch-hunted, accused of being a Cult, told they are "brainwashed" or "drinking the Kool-Aid"....?

If you go down to the woods today, be sure for a big surprise. Coz everywhere, where ever there was, the Greerians are having a picnic.

millerman, I never persecuted any Cult Greerians. Greer's Cult members follow him by choice and they are allowed to do that. I'm not trying to deprogram them! Let them go, I say! Follow the mothra and the anchored beams of energy!

Leader Greer is the problem, he makes claims that he can't support which smells of someone FAKE. He takes money from people based on fake photographs.

Originally posted by tezzajw

Originally posted by millerman
My question to you is, if you have say 12 people going off to the woods, or the beach, or the desert, or the mountains, to pray or meditate together, like a spiritual retreat - should these people be persecuted and witch-hunted, accused of being a Cult, told they are "brainwashed" or "drinking the Kool-Aid"....?

If you go down to the woods today, be sure for a big surprise. Coz everywhere, where ever there was, the Greerians are having a picnic.

millerman, I never persecuted any Cult Greerians. Greer's Cult members follow him by choice and they are allowed to do that. I'm not trying to deprogram them! Let them go, I say! Follow the mothra and the anchored beams of energy!

Your contempt for any and all things spiritual speaks for itself. I didn't even say Greer or CSETI, I just said "12 people praying together in the woods", and you respond with your ridicule and contempt.

Since when is gathering in groups to pray a crime or something to be ashamed of? If 12 people get together in the woods to pray together, are they doing something wrong? Should we maybe start burning them at the stake too....?

[edit on 12-5-2007 by millerman]