The Stop Snitchin' Movement

Originally posted by truthseeka
you want to get into a "you're a 'n-word'" rant?

Pure interjection. That wasn't said.

Originally posted by truthseeka
I know of people who have killed other people and not spent a DAY in jail for it. .... she once got a guy busted by planting drugs on him.

Lovely people that you ALLEGEDLY know.

Originally posted by truthseeka
I know of people who have killed other people and not spent a DAY in jail for it.

I'm sorry, but I have to acknowledge this and call you out. Several months ago, you were nowhere to be heard on these issues. Then over the last few weeks and months, you've had a little "coming out party" and you've become extremely vocal on these issues. That's fine, I respect that, and I've even Applauded it. I enjoy that we have a passionate member who is sitting on the other side of the fence, and engages other members on these issues.

However, lately I am noticing a lot of stories on your end of thing, that have never came up in the past. And something tells me that if these were true, they would of came up in the past.

It's like the dude who gets hit by lightning, and tells you about it ten years into your relationship. You know, yah think you would of mentioned that when I met you. Just one of those things.

So recently I've read how you've had cops pull weapons on you and have guns pointed right in your face. Now I read how you "know" plenty of murderers and none of them have been held accountable for their actions.

At this point, I would like to point our direction to the following...

Terms And Conditions Of Use

1). Posting: You will not post any material that is knowingly false, misleading, or inaccurate.

Honestly truthseeka, I think you are fabricating stories to further your agenda here. I, nor anyone else, can prove that. But keep it in the back of your mind that it is against the T&C to post false information. If these accounts are true, my apologies and I retract everything that I've said here.

But in all the "race discussions" we've had over the last few months, something tells me that these "stories" would of came up in the past.

----

Either way, this whole "Stop Snitchen" is a complete fiasco. I agree with intrepid on a level, but disagree as well. Depending on the specifics, sometimes it is best to keep it to yourself. However, if your "keeping it to yourself" leaves someone at risk, you are just as guilty. If you see someone jaywalking, illegal parking, etc., yeah a "rat" runs to the cop for this. I hate that word though, "rat".

But if any one knew of a murder, rape, assault, etc., and did not report it, in my opinion, they are just as guilty. It's like the school yard bully who has ten kids watching him pick on the little guy. Those ten kids, in my opinion, are just as guilty as the bully for not reporting it. We as a society have finally come to understand what these behaviours can do to the psyche and self-perception of an individual. To stand by and watch that happen, you might as well be the one with the blood on your hands.

To be a member of any society, it comes with inherited responsibilities. Accept these responsibilities or get out.



[edit on 5-5-2007 by chissler]

Originally posted by truthseeka
Again, so what?

Whether you realize it or not, this social problem has its effects on us all. Some of us may not be AS affected others, but it's a sickness, a scourge that spreads. It's a social problem that has consequences to a wide variety of people. It's not just your immediate circle or the 'hood that's affected by this.

I seriously doubt this movement is in your neighborhood.

Crime is everywhere. Serious crime is taking place on my street. I'm dealing with a serious problem right now that involves people who are not willing to 'snitch' on someone and I and my family are suffering from it. No, it's not crack. And no, no black people are involved. But this thing is bigger than you know. So regardless what you "seriously doubt", I have a personal interest in this subject. I am involved. That's all I'm going to say about it here.

One snitch I know of was able to smoke crack in the middle of the street without cops arresting her. All because she ratted out people to them. Hell, she once got a guy busted by planting drugs on him, then calling the cops on him. And you wonder why this is a movement?

You're making this about something entirely different than what it is.

What you're talking about is not just snitching. That's criminal activity. I definitely see a problem with this, but an innocent person cooperating with the law to help them do their job is a different scenario than someone blatantly disobeying the law and getting away with it because of their "agreements" with law enforcement.

Harassment, thanks for your input. I'd like to highlight the above difference, though. All "snitches" aren't criminals. And this movement does not differentiate. It just punishes ANYONE who cooperates with the police, whether they're a criminal or innocent. A "snitch" isn't necessarily a criminal. That difference has to be acknowledged.

As Chissler pointed out, it's one thing to run to the authorities every time someone doesn't wear their seatbelt or some other "victimless" crime, but quite another to WITNESS a murder and keep your mouth shut because of some personal hatred for authority, so they can be free to murder again.

And I can't stress enough that I'm talking about innocent people here, not criminals who trade (especially false) information in exchange for protection from prosecution of their own crimes. And I don't think that's what the movement is about for the most part. It's about convincing EVERYONE to STOP cooperating with the law. It's basically encouraging lawlessness... Hence a societal problem.

Stop Snitchin' Won't Stop Crime

Turning your back on the system ensures one thing: The system will continue to not work for you. Expecting change to happen when you look away is precisely the kind of mentality that rarely accomplishes anything and draws more heat than if you were just working positively to affect your community.

Instead of rapping about not snitchin’ on real criminals, if the conditions are as deplorable as suggested, why not rap about not committing crimes? Why not rap about improving the systems of inequality through positive action? Why not do anything except for the movement that these rappers are participating in?

The reality is all of these questions are left unanswered with Stop Snitchin’, and even though the movement defies the logic of self-preservation, it will continue in the meantime because nobody has the gall to stand up and say what really happened.

[edit on 5-5-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Well, Chissler, quite frankly, I don't care if you don't believe me.

I've seen things that you wouldn't believe, but that doesn't change what I've seen. Like if I told you that someone was hit in the head with a bottle (40 ouncer, not the bar fight type bottle) while they were LITERALLY standing right next to me, then was hit directly in the face. You wouldn't believe that, I'm sure, but that doesn't mean it's not true.

But, whatever. This is precisely why I've been hesitant to put personal experiences on here. And I don't appreciate you calling me a liar, ESPECIALLY when you can't prove I'm making this up.

Why don't you give me a warning the next time I tell a story? That would say a lot to me.

I've lost some respect I had for you, chiss...:shk:

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Pure interjection. That wasn't said.

Funny, I thought that WAS part of what Michael Richards said. I thought that Kacen DID say he felt like going Michael Richards. It's really quite simple...

Lovely people that you ALLEGEDLY know.

Broad range of life experiences. Which is why it's SO funny to hear people go on about the hood and movements within with no IDEA of what it's really like there.

This topic is truly depressing, in part because I think many of you have missed the forest for the trees…

What this reality demonstrates is a much deeper issue. It might be that when one believes fundamental fairness is lacking or unachievable through normal means, the consequence is a devaluation of the life of others…a sort of hopelessness.

This isn’t just a “gangster” thing. Evidence of this behavior can be found elsewhere. Take for example this article:

U.S. Marines unlikely to report civilian abuse: study

Only 40 percent of Marines and 55 percent of U.S. Army soldiers deployed in Iraq say they would report a fellow serviceman for killing or injuring an innocent Iraqi, a Pentagon report released on Friday shows.

The Army survey, which showed increasing rates of mental health problems for troops on extended or multiple deployments, also said well over one-third of soldiers and Marines believe torture should be allowed to elicit information that could save the lives of American troops or gain knowledge about Iraqi insurgents.

Overall, about 10 percent of the 1,320 soldiers and 447 Marines covered in the survey said they had mistreated civilians, either through physical violence or damage to their personal property. The survey was conducted by U.S. Army medical experts between August 28 and October 3, 2006.
More…

I am no way saying this behavior is justified. But as a society, if we have any chance of mitigating this phenomenon, we had better get real about why this behavior appears in the first place.

Condemnation without investigation into causation and potential solutions is a meaningless exercise, imo.

Food for thought…



[edit on 5-5-2007 by loam]

Originally posted by truthseeka
I know of people who have killed other people and not spent a DAY in jail for it.

Wouldn't you feel terrible if the person you knew killed another person killed again? What if it was somebody you knew?

Even if the police didn't catch him, it would be better to try and tell them, then to just let the killer go free. There is no chance of them being caught if you don't say anything.

And this neighborhood you live in; if it is so bad, why don't you try to get out of there? Why stay? Don't you fear for your life?



[edit on 5/5/2007 by enjoies05]

Originally posted by loam
What this reality demonstrates is a much deeper issue.

I totally agree with you, loam (hi, by the way). As I said, this is in response to the actions of police who do the very same thing. We see this everywhere, I just never had a name for it before.

It might be that when one believes fundamental fairness is lacking or unachievable through normal means, the consequence is a devaluation of the life of others…a sort of hopelessness.

Yes. Again, I agree. However, I think it's dangerous to have the attitude that because life isn't fair (Duh!) it's somehow acceptable to break the rules. Life IS NOT fair! It's not fair to ANY of us. Life has certainly not been fair to me. But that's no excuse for me to take the law into my hands or feel justified in breaking social rules and laws that are our only way of even getting close to living in a civil society. (I know you said it's not justified, but it sounds dangerously close to it to me.)

This isn’t just a “gangster” thing. Evidence of this behavior can be found elsewhere.

Absolutely. It's clearly evident in even the political discussions on this board. Depending on which "team" one is on, it's OK and justified for one person to be jailed or impeached or whatever, but it's NOT OK for it to happen the other way around, because that guy is on my "team"!

But no one made it a "movement" until rappers started making songs about it. An irresponsible action meant to influence other people to behave lawlessly.

we had better get real about why this behavior appears in the first place.

Why is it happening?

Geoffrey Canada has been working with Harlem kids for over 20 years.

"So this slogan, this 'stop snitchin'.' It now extends to rape, robbery, murder, really any crime?" Cooper asks.

"Any crime," Canada says. "It's like we're saying to the criminals, 'You can have our community. Just have our community. Do anything you want, and we will either deal with it ourselves, or we'll simply ignore it.'"

Canada could no longer ignore it on Feb. 5, 2006, when Israel Ramirez, a student he had mentored and loved like a son, was shot to death outside a soundstage in Brooklyn.

I'm not condemning this thing without thinking about it. I'm concerned. I'm concerned about these people handing their lives and their futures over to criminals. I'm concerned about the mindset that if life isn't fair, it's OK to do whatever it takes to "get back" at those who treat you unfairly. This thread isn't about condemning gangstas or hip hop or the 'hood or blacks. It's about asking what this movement is about, where it came from and what should be done about it.

Originally posted by enjoies05
Wouldn't you feel terrible if the person you knew killed another person killed again? What if it was somebody you knew?

The people I know are smart enough to avoid starting mess with killers.

Even if the police didn't catch him, it would be better to try and tell them, then to just let the killer go free. There is no chance of them being caught if you don't say anything.

Remember, I said more than one instance of this. If the cops didn't come investigate the first couple of times this happened, why do you expect people to keep calling them?

And this neighborhood you live in; if it is so bad, why don't you try to get out of there? Why stay? Don't you fear for your life?

I know how to handle myself there, so no, I'm not afraid for my life. And I don't live there now, I visit.

has been around as long as the USA has had a modern police-force on patrol.

Basically, the local power elites within a subculture resurrect this meme whenever they are threatened by "their people" slipping away into middle-class / mainstream existence.

The power elites are labelled "organized crime" by the dominant society; their power largely stems from their coercive control over their own people. When you hear about this kind of movement, you're watching the community's self-definition begin to fragment.

In the early 1900's in New York, the elites of the Italian-American community made "omerta" into the definition of Italian identity.

The Irish gangs during Reconstruction had the same experience, and used Irish nationalism as a way of keeping their own neighborhoods firmly in the grip of varios "bosses."

Hispanics, particularly recent arrivals are under the same sorts of pressures.


Basically, the subculture gets told that "the cops are against us," and the only protection that is real "comes from your own people."

The antidote to this whole movement comes when members of the communities begin to find careers in law enforcement and politics.

This happened to the Irish community, to the extent the stereotype for NYPD was the cop with an Irish accent. About the same time that this image developed, the Irish community became mainstreamed into american culture.

Similar trends can be seen in immigrant communities nationwide. When they become stake-holders in local law enforcement, the "stop-snitch movement" or its correlate goes by the boards. Cities like Dallas and Atlanta, where the majority of police are African-American, seem to have a lot fewer police brutality complaints. When they do, it's not usually a question of race.

So yeah, this is a sign that people in the 'hood are snitching, because they don't feel like the powers in their hood really serve them. And the "powers-that-be" are trying to keep them quiet.

.

Originally posted by truthseeka
If the cops didn't come investigate the first couple of times this happened, why do you expect people to keep calling them?

And when yahoos go around saying that they wouldn't help a cop catch a serial killer, or others say that they wouldn't even help a cop 'catch a cold', why should the cops bother? It's a waste of time.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Remember, I said more than one instance of this. If the cops didn't come investigate the first couple of times this happened, why do you expect people to keep calling them?

Why would the police want to go and protect the people who wouldn't help them out and keep info from them? Why should they help them after they make songs about killing police?

You talk bad about police and how they don't do their job's but then you get angry when they don't help.

It's a disgusting circle and it should stop for the safety of everyone. So why do you continue it?

Originally posted by truthseeka
I know how to handle myself there

With all those murderers around I'd be kind of nervous myself.







[edit on 5-5-2007 by chissler]

Originally posted by intrepid
I work in Corrections and we also have this code. You dime a fellow worker out, you're a Rat. You can either take their # or deal with it yourself. Snitch and you poison your own work environment. It's better to pound the asshole into the ground and if he "snitches" you're clear and he's on the outside. Does it make sense? Nope. It's just the way it is. Arbitration would be better but sometimes it's not the way things are.

I would say that you and your fellow corrections employees are as bad as the gangsters. When you sign on to do a job, the rules are laid out. You do not make your own rules. That is lawlessness.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
And when yahoos go around saying that they wouldn't help a cop catch a serial killer, or others say that they wouldn't even help a cop 'catch a cold', why should the cops bother? It's a waste of time.

You're always good for a great laugh.

I thought this was their JOB. It's like asking why do doctors bother saving people who keep smoking and coming back for heart surgery. Or why fire fighters keep spraying water on buildings made of flammable materials.

Do me a favor; save your next comment for tomorrow. I like to wake up to humor.

Originally posted by enjoies05
Why would the police want to go and protect the people who wouldn't help them out and keep info from them? Why should they help them after they make songs about killing police?

This post is full of fallacious points. For one, the cops started this whole thing. Decades ago, they weren't protecting black people from terrorists; more often than not, they were aiding the terrorists. After the terrorism was no longer TOTALLY tolerated, the police continued their inaction, as well as the terrorist-style tactics. Therefore, these areas have a history of bad blood with police.

2, the police were doing this DECADES before gangsta rap was first created. Therefore, your linkage of this genre of rap with police inaction is not logical.

3, nearly all people in the areas are not gangsta rappers. So, your point that the cops shouldn't help them because the people make songs about killing cops is illogical.

You talk bad about police and how they don't do their job's but then you get angry when they don't help.

Now you're making stuff up. I recall saying that I would NOT seek the help of police.

It's a disgusting circle and it should stop for the safety of everyone. So why do you continue it?

I'm not a part of the movement. Therefore, I'm continuing nothing, as you say.

With all those murderers around I'd be kind of nervous myself.

We can't all be courageous, tis true.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I totally agree with you, loam (hi, by the way).

Nice to cross threads with you again…It’s been a while.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Yes. Again, I agree. However, I think it's dangerous to have the attitude that because life isn't fair (Duh!) it's somehow acceptable to break the rules. Life IS NOT fair! It's not fair to ANY of us. Life has certainly not been fair to me. But that's no excuse for me to take the law into my hands or feel justified in breaking social rules and laws that are our only way of even getting close to living in a civil society. (I know you said it's not justified, but it sounds dangerously close to it to me.)

We agree completely- except on your last point. It’s my view that to avoid stating the obvious is a far more dangerous thing. Something is obviously seriously broken. We need to explore that and tackle it head-on. Agreeing on the outrageousness of the symptoms is the easy part. The rest is where the real work comes in.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Why is it happening?

I have some theories…

In fact, I think there are several issues at play.

Disenfranchisement…

Fear…

Opportunism...

And, plain old depravity…

:shk:

We have our work cut out for us.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I'm concerned.

If enough people are, then there is hope.

Hi FlyersFan.

Within the last 9 months or so, my understanding about what really goes on in the world has changed a lot.

That's different from turning a blind eye to people who are out murdering, raping, and stealing from innocent citizens.

Please try to understand this. In those neighbourhoods, a blind or uncaring eye is being turned by the cops on murderers, rapist, drug dealers, thieves, who are abusing innocent people because they are now snitches. They are getting major boons, and that is why this movement in those places are taking off. The innocent are getting hurt, by the cops letting snitches run wild.

I really wish you were reading the articles. I felt the same way you did, but over the last 9-10 months the world is not what we were taught. I hope you never find out the way I did. Maybe it still is sometimes, but I get why this movement is taking off and I get why some people feel this way.

I personally think if I see a crime, I would still do the right thing, but I really would have to weigh in all the details, because the right thing might be different than what was previously thought.

I understand why you feel the way you do, but I also now understand why others feel a certain way. The snitching movement from the bottom to the top is corrupting and ruining society and causing more problems, than what these kids and this movement is doing.

This is the first strong movement that tried to draw attention to that in part, and the whole movement has been painted as really negative. Everyone who sees value in this movement is painted as a thug, trying to intimidate witnesses, and that's just not the reason this movement is doing so strongly, it because some of these communities have been ruined by snitches.

That's the painful truth that those who refuse to help their neighborhoods and communities can't face.

I again disagree. I think you can be a good neighbour do the right thing, but you don't have to be a snitch. I I think that's the problem with society, too many in society now think that snitching is a good thing, well it's not. Being a witness is a good thing, if you see a crime and you feel it's the right thing to do to report it, then report it. I see snitches as something quite different however, and I really don't approve of the practice. Maybe however that's because I work up to the nightmare before snitches 9 months ago. My views might just be tainted or jaded.


Hi Chissler.


Since I don't want to over quote, I will just say well said. See if you see like a murder and you are not just reporting it to get out of jail then you are doing the right thing. If you see a bully take down some kid then do the right thing.

If you are just ratting people out cause you know you can then don't. I think there is a middle ground.

I say stop snitching. Start witnessing. A snitch or informant I see as something bad. A witness or whistle-blower I see as something good. That's the way I would summarize it.


Hi Benevolent Heretic.

And this movement does not differentiate.

I agree there. It does not differentiate, and that is one of the things that I would like to see change. I think kids have to understand that sometimes it's ok to speak out. There are times when you should tell on people, like pedophiles, rapist, murders, and other people like that.

However I don't know much about the street codes, but I now understand why they are in place and that there are reasons for them. I think the people that are serious about the stop snitching message need to get that across to the kids, that there is a time for every purpose.

From my point of view. I would like to go after the police and the snitching system, that is ruining society. This is why our courts are getting corrupted, this movement has merits because it's causing everyone to see how reliant the cops and prosecutors have become on snitches. Many just don't do the real leg work anymore. It's all about the snitches.

Apparently it's the snitches that will inherit the earth, and not the meek, well I would like to see this changed for the better. This stop snitching movement is the first to help highlight what is happening from the bottom to the top, it's just there does need to be a balanced message, and from some good leaders, who can reach these kids, and all communities.

It's about convincing EVERYONE to STOP cooperating with the law. It's basically encouraging lawlessness... Hence a societal problem.

From the articles I read that is not the case, but that is the only portion of the side that we are seeing, if you go and read all the articles, you will see this.



Hi dr_strangecraft


Even though the overall stop snitching might have been around for awhile, this new one started a couple of years ago when these rappers did this joke video in their hood, it was called stop f-ing snitching, and the video did really well. The video did well cause it had this basket ball guy Carmelo Anthony, who is apparently kindda popular, or was at the time of the video was made.

Denver Nuggets star Carmelo Anthony is featured in an underground DVD that is circulating in his home town of Baltimore, Md.


Carmelo Anthony appears in a DVD called "Stop Snitching" with a self-confessed drug dealer.


The DVD is called "Stop Snitching" and shows alleged drug dealers talking about what happens to people who cooperate with the police, and Anthony is standing next to one of them.

Then the t-shirts stated. Apparently that's how this caught fire. However the snitches had been causing hell and devastating many of these communities, long before the video.

Originally posted by truthseeka

You're always good for a great laugh.

Grow up.

I thought this was their JOB.

It's YOUR JOB as a citizen to help the police to do their job.
It's YOUR JOB as a good neighbor. It's YOUR JOB as a civilized person
to help the neighborhood by informing the police of any knowledge you
have of crimes committed - such as murder, rape, burglery, larceny, arson...

Originally posted by truthseeka

Originally posted by enjoies05
You talk bad about police and how they don't do their job's but then you get angry when they don't help.

I recall saying that I would NOT seek the help of police.

No. You said that you wouldn't even help them catch a cold.
You make their job more difficult and you get great satisfaction from it.
Your own bias gets in the way of helping your neighbors live safer lives.

You should be very proud.

Originally posted by Harassment101
too many in society now think that snitching is a good thing, well it's not. Being a witness is a good thing,

Harassment .... you are saying that snitching and being a witness are two different things .... so where is the line drawn? Truthseeka has boldly said that he would not ever help a cop with anything. Harassment, I am convinced that most people do not differentiate between the two.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
It's YOUR JOB as a citizen to help the police to do their job.
It's YOUR JOB as a good neighbor. It's YOUR JOB as a civilized person
to help the neighborhood by informing the police of any knowledge you
have of crimes committed - such as murder, rape, burglery, larceny, arson...

I'm not paid to do any of the things you've listed. Cops are paid to "serve and protect;" it is often unclear who they are doing this for.

No. You said that you wouldn't even help them catch a cold.
You make their job more difficult and you get great satisfaction from it.
Your own bias gets in the way of helping your neighbors live safer lives.

Crime is not a problem where I live. Cops don't have a hard time catching criminals; tips from snitches, er, "confidential informants" give them most of their info. Their bias makes people in certain areas mistrust them, which leads to not helping them.

You should be very proud.

Grow up.

Originally posted by truthseeka
I'm not paid to do any of the things you've listed.

Thats a bit selfish, no? You will not help out fellow citizens because you don't get paid?

I'm not a part of the movement. Therefore, I'm continuing nothing, as you say.

But it is a "Stop Snitching" movement. And you've been saying that you would never snitch...isn't that helping the movement? Seems like you are continuing it.

We can't all be courageous, tis true.

Easy for anybody to say that when they're sitting on the computer.



[edit on 6/5/2007 by enjoies05]