Bush scolds China, Russia, others on press freedoms

PS the Chinese government is far more oppressive then you make it out to be.

I didint say they were not opresive.

Have you ever heard of Chinas execution vans? They are specifically designed to kill human beings right there on the spot. No court warning.. You can be outside playing with your kids and they just pull right on up and take you away and kill you. Then they take out your organs and sell them half a world away.. If you think that the US judicial system is bad, just wait till you hear about chinas...

From 4 rakings to acceptable to bad I gave them a number 3 ranking, I don't beilive they are worst than north corea.
I don't think that what they are doing is good in any way, but I don't think they will execute you for crossing a red light, but it's deplorable any way even if some one comited murderer to execute him on spot, I'm against capital punishment all over the world.

there is no such thing as freedom in china. The chinese constantly have to walk on egg shells just to appease there government which is ruled by an elite few... It shouldnt be that way. Thats all bush is saying. And hes right.

I agree that things need to change in china and I'm not defending it's sistem, but I just hate people that take credit for what they don't deserve.
What I don't agree on is on the fact that you don't see the good things, china was worst in the past, they did improve to a level.
There is freedom in china but to a limit.

img.aujourdhuilachine.com...

www.jackiechankids.com...

www.dropshots.com...

Chinas execution buses.

Well since that loyer was able to speak free about his case and those chinese were able to speak about their case in china on a foreight tv station then there is got to be some rights, tho it looks disturbing, but compared to north corea I was right in my asesment tho I did not know about this one with the bus.

.......
Regarding other things.
Boy you are wrong?, wrong on what? that a person must look at more than one source, more than one voice, because this is what you just have quotet.

Safe to say china is a lot worse then you make it out to be. You want to see a dictatorship? You just defended one..

I'm not deffending anything, and how did I make china look better, can you explain that?
From out of 4 I gave it a number 3 rank, what was a wrong in? all I said that people can do pretty much what they want, listen to what music they want, browse the internet, go out dancing, eat out and have fun, that is what I ment, breaking the law is another thing, but the punishment is deplorable, still from out of 4 I give them a rank of number 3, they are not worse than north corea is.




[edit on 8-5-2007 by pepsi78]

Here is what I think, if I made a small ranking on based on my opinion why not make a complete ranking on freedom.

WHo is the best and who is the worst?
1 all countrys from EU and the rest of western europe,australia(continent), canada.
2 japan and south corea.
3 united states.
6 mexic, russia,israel,pakistan, india, turkey.
7 siria, leabanon, saudy arabia.
8 iran, venesuela.
9 cuba
10 vietnam
11 china
12 afganistan,iraq
13 north corea

I didint list all the countrys in the world, just the ones that had media atention or that are more biger or important regarding human rights.


main stream news stations
1 bbc
2 msnbc , cnn, euronews
3 fox news.


[edit on 8-5-2007 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78
From out of 4 I gave it a number 3 rank, what was a wrong in? all I said that people can do pretty much what they want, listen to what music they want, browse the internet, go out dancing, eat out and have fun, that is what I ment, breaking the law is another thing, but the punishment is deplorable, still from out of 4 I give them a rank of number 3, they are not worse than north corea is.

Brush up on your english bud. That lawyer was taken away from his family because of that interview, he was being watched by the chinese government. The reporters had been tipped off that the police were coming as they were in the middle of that interview with the lawyer. As soon as they left the police were waiting for them. At the end of the video they say that the lawyers family has yet to hear or see from him to this day. And remember, this was all done in confidence with the lawyer, so it did not have the blessing from the chinese government.

North Korea is just a poor mans china.

[edit on 023131p://1705am by semperfoo]

Originally posted by pepsi78

Comunism in the world is not that spread out anymore, even china has taken a more lighter form compared to what was.

Riiight....and I guess Senator Boxer was right when she claimed Communism was dead in Cuba too about two years ago......

Originally posted by pepsi78
As for terrorism I do not worry about it too much, probaly I stand a better chance to get hit by a car than to die in a terror plot, what are the chance of an aiplane crashing in my house with 5 terrorists on board? under 0,1%?

Good for you...but it is not for you to say what should or shouldn't be done, more so because you obviously think you are immune to terrorism and just because you say so governments shouldn't try to stop terrorists...

Originally posted by pepsi78
You don't feel it because you are probaly used to it, but wait a few years.

...already have....for over 10 years i have heard claims that the U.S. is a dictatorship because there are people who think "anarchy" is "freedom"....

Originally posted by pepsi78
No, that is not true,tapping cell phones of jurnalists and reporters, tapping people that called out of the country because bush wanted to find out what they are talking about, he's worst than my grandma

she usualy likes to know what others talk about and puts a glass on the wall to hear what others say.

Do you have any idea how many people would have to be working for the government to do what you claim it is doing?.... You obviously don't know...

As it stands it would take months to be able to put a tap on a few thousand people, and despite the claims of some people the wiretaps have been done to maybe one or two thousand people...

Perhaps you don't know it or don't care but even in the U.S. there are several extremist Muslim groups that only want to see the destruction of America.

There are roughly 3 million Arabs living in the U.S., and about 6-10 million Muslims. Not all are bad people, probably a mayority are good, or as they are also called Moderate Muslims, but among them, which includes people from other races and not only of Arab descent, there is a percentage that are up to no good.

Arab Americans now number more than 3 million, Muslims roughly 6 million (though estimates range from 3 million to 10 million).

www.brookings.edu...

Here is a list of Islamic extremist groups in the U.S.

www.unitedstatesaction.com...

Knowing that there are Islamic extremists and other extremists who want nothing more than cause chaos in the U.S. wiretapping 2,000 people is a very low number...

So again, your claim is bogus...

Originally posted by pepsi78
That is not true either.

We have seen those before.... Again, those soldiers who were part of that sort of torture are already paying what they have done....

Originally posted by pepsi78
American citizen held with no charges, no evidence.

That video is not even working, and you would actually need to provide more evidence for this. it might be true or it might be one of the thousands of people who "are looking for attention" or have some agenda.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Guantanamo has all, chinise , russians, arabs.

There are terrorists from many nationalities... what exactly is your point?....

Originally posted by pepsi78

www.youtube.com...
How is it that some of those people are held with out any charges and then relised? when found that they had nothing to do with it,

That man should not have been released. I am not sure what was the reason for his release, but you obviously have not investigated about this man...

From a site that most members around here trust here is a little bit about that man in that last video you gave...

Moazzam Begg
...............
He was released on January 25, 2005 along with Feroz Abbasi, Martin Mubanga and Richard Belmar, without charge though he received no compensation or an apology. resident Bush released Moazzam Begg over the objections of the Pentagon, the CIA, and the FBI, who warned that Mr. Begg could still be a dangerous terrorist.
...................
As a youth, Moazzam Begg became a member of a gang in Birmingham called "The Lynx."[3]

He was first arrested in 1994 for alleged involvement in a benefit fraud case. The leader of The Lynx gang, Shahid Akram Butt[4], pleaded guilty and served 18 months in jail.[5][6] Charges against Begg were dropped, but a police search of his home found night vision goggles, a bulletproof vest, and extremist Islamic literature. His family insist that he was collecting such items as a hobby.

He had travelled to Afghanistan and Bosnia and attempted to travel to Chechnya, and fully acknowledges giving financial support for Muslim combatants, but insists that he never took a combat role for himself.

He was again arrested in 2000 under British anti-terrorism laws during a raid on the Maktabah Al Ansar bookshop in Birmingham, which he had founded. [9] The government retrieved encrypted files from his computer and ordered Begg to open them, but Begg refused and a judge ruled in his favor.[7] He was released without charge.

en.wikipedia.org...

That is not an innocent man...

Originally posted by pepsi78
Not yet...but it is becoming.

Yeah, and I am the king of England....

[edit on 9-5-2007 by Muaddib]

Do you have any idea how many people would have to be working for the government to do what you claim it is doing?.... You obviously don't know...

There are plenty of people and departments to handle this, super computers to handle this.

Perhaps you don't know it or don't care but even in the U.S. there are several extremist Muslim groups that only want to see the destruction of America.

I see journalists and reporters included, now days every one is a terrorist.

Knowing that there are Islamic extremists and other extremists who want nothing more than cause chaos in the U.S. wiretapping 2,000 people is a very low number...

So again, your claim is bogus...

No my claims are not bogus

Spying on anti war groups.
Spying on reporters and journalists
Spying on human rights groups
Breaking laws to spy on people.

Here how bogus my claims are.

www.youtube.com...

Others.
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...

We have seen those before.... Again, those soldiers who were part of that sort of torture are already paying what they have done....

What soldiers? I'm not taking about Iraq

That video is not even working, and you would actually need to provide more evidence for this. it might be true or it might be one of the thousands of people who "are looking for attention" or have some agenda.

Maybe this one is working, i double checked now
www.youtube.com...

There are terrorists from many nationalities... what exactly is your point?....

My point is that every one is a terrorist now days, they just have to disagree with the us government and they become terrorists, they sure look more and more like the chinese.

That man should not have been released. I am not sure what was the reason for his release, but you obviously have not investigated about this man...

From a site that most members around here trust here is a little bit about that man in that last video you gave...

maybe you are right about this guy,I don't ague the fact, but there are others, people picked up, taken in the middle of the night, even from united states, held with out a trial for years.
There are your human rights, what a hypocrite talking about others when he is a criminal and a professional liar.

China is what it is, but accepting it from a man like George bush is unacceptable, I simply don't want him credited for the speech he made, because he does not deserve any credit at all, next people are going to say, that man is full of compassion, wow george we better listen to you next time, what a bunch of crap.
If a member of congress would of came and done it, It would of been appreciated, but not from him and his minions.

You say you're not from america and emigrated there? who knows maybe your next wish you the best luck...



[edit on 9-5-2007 by pepsi78]

Threads like this drive me crazy.

I find it so depressing that so many will argue against better standards for ourselves simply because they can point to conditions that are far worse elsewhere.

Using this standard, I can hardly think of any problem that should be resolved as long as we can point to someplace else where it is far more broken than at home.

How did such a poisonous mentality enter the very fabric of our great American culture? We are fortunate that those who preceded us thought otherwise and fought with their very lives for a better future. …Too bad so many of us fail to truly appreciate those sacrifices.


[edit on 10-5-2007 by loam]

On the flip side, what drives me crazy are those who refuse to discuss problems elsewhere in the world, simply because we have problems here in the US.

Originally posted by jsobecky
On the flip side, what drives me crazy are those who refuse to discuss problems elsewhere in the world, simply because we have problems here in the US.

Who is refusing to discuss problems elsewhere in the world?

As an American, I prioritize my interests at home in advance of those I might find abroad. That is not to say I'm not interested in justice, fundamental fairness or opportunity for all, but in my book charity begins at home.

On the subject of this thread, I have no problem with what Bush is advocating to the subject nations. But when your credibility is as challenged as his is, I think his effort causes the opposite effect by trivializing the very issues his words express.

If America can’t get it right, why should anyone else?

Originally posted by loam
Who is refusing to discuss problems elsewhere in the world?

It happens all the time here. For example, start a thread about how Chavez stifles freedom of the press in Venezuela, and people immediately jump in with "Yes but Bush did blah blah blah". They won't discuss Chavez; they only want to bash Bush and/or the US.

As an American, I prioritize my interests at home in advance of those I might find abroad. That is not to say I'm not interested in justice, fundamental fairness or opportunity for all, but in my book charity begins at home.

I'm also interested in discussing our problems. But that doesn't mean I can't discuss the problems in other parts of the world.

If we were to follow that logic, we'd be stuck discussing only our home country, since every country has their own problems.

On the subject of this thread, I have no problem with what Bush is advocating to the subject nations. But when your credibility is as challenged as his is, I think his effort causes the opposite effect by trivializing the very issues his words express.

Well, that's to be expected if you're stuck in the mode of looking at the messenger instead of the message.

Originally posted by pepsi78

There are plenty of people and departments to handle this, super computers to handle this.

There aren't... There are programs like echelon that have been around since the 50s and look for certain words, or phrases, but in order to do what you and some in the press are claiming; that "President Bush is listening to millions of conversations", the government would need at least 3-4 agents for every person they are listening to...

Even if just 1-2 agents are listening to every conversation of the "millions of people" some claim are been listened to, that means there are millions of agents listening in, or at least hundreds oif thousands... No agency alone nor all together have that many agents...

Probably what happens is that programs like echelon keep looking for certain words and phrases, and when these programs find those words or phrases in a conversation then agents will listen in to see what is the nature of the conversation...

As I said before, there are Islamic extremists and other extremists that want nothing more than chaos in the U.S. and those people do use telephones and cell phones.... Perhaps some people think that "the terrorist should be allowed to do whatever they want"...and then those some people are the ones who yell "this is a dictatorship...the government allowed this to happen"....

Again, a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't".....

Originally posted by pepsi78
I see journalists and reporters included, now days every one is a terrorist.

Riiight.... i guess all American reporters are in jail right now or in Guantanamo... and everyone else is a terrorist?... please.... do grow up...

Originally posted by pepsi78
No my claims are not bogus

Spying on anti war groups.

And i already showed that there are anti-war groups who only want to start chaos in the U.S. because they have an agenda of their own...

Originally posted by pepsi78
Spying on reporters and journalists

Terrorists do tend to talk to some journalists, and there are journalists who, for whatever reason, keep the terrosists safe, since "supposedly that's what reporters do.

Again, I am certain that the reporters who were spied on have had some contact with terrorist organizations.

Some of the reporters have paid with their lives giving their trust to terrorists, such as Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearle, who was killed by terrorists after meeting them...

But there are other "dumbasses journalists", no offense but that's what they are, who think they will get their fame by interviewing terrorists and keeping them safe because they can be sources for newspapers articles in the future...

Originally posted by pepsi78
Spying on human rights groups

You would have to be specific as to which "human right group" and who in that "human right group" there was any spying done... Then we need to find out the background of that person...

Things are not as straightforward as you think they are. Just because many people belong to "human right groups" or "anti-war groups" it doesn't mean everyone of them is a good person. There are quite a few extremists who infiltrate these groups to further their own agendas...

Originally posted by pepsi78
Breaking laws to spy on people.

And in the past this has been done during times of war and emergency in the U.S. yet the U.S. didn't become a dictatorship.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Here how bogus my claims are.

You are exagerating because you are trying to lump everyone together... As i said before just because there are people in "human right groups" or "anti-war groups" it doesn't mean they are all good people...

There are terrorists who are doctors, engineers etc and they kill/murder people...

Originally posted by pepsi78
My point is that every one is a terrorist now days, they just have to disagree with the us government and they become terrorists, they sure look more and more like the chinese.

BS, you and many people in these forums "disagree with the U.S. government" yet you are not in prison, or are branded a terrorist....

Originally posted by pepsi78
maybe you are right about this guy,I don't ague the fact, but there are others, people picked up, taken in the middle of the night, even from united states, held with out a trial for years.
There are your human rights, what a hypocrite talking about others when he is a criminal and a professional liar.

Again... you need to give examples of who these people are and then we have to do some investigation on them....

As i said before there are "extremists" who have infiltrated "human right groups" and "anti-war groups"... hell we know for a fact that many "anti-war demonstration" have been scheduled and funded by groups such as "A.N.S.W.E.R. international" and other groups which were funded by "the Workers World Party" and other Communist organizations just to infiltrate in the U.S. and further their agenda by using any "demonstration" they can for other motvies that have nothing to do with "anti-war"...

Originally posted by pepsi78
China is what it is, but accepting it from a man like George bush is unacceptable, I simply don't want him credited for the speech he made, because he does not deserve any credit at all, next people are going to say, that man is full of compassion, wow george we better listen to you next time, what a bunch of crap.
If a member of congress would of came and done it, It would of been appreciated, but not from him and his minions.

And all of that comes from your "opinion" on the president of the U.S....

"Opinions" are not "facts"...

Originally posted by pepsi78
You say you're not from america and emigrated there? who knows maybe your next

wish you the best luck...

I wasn't born in the U.S., but I am an American citizen, i took oaths in which i swore alligeance to the U.S., and I intent on keeping the oaths until the day I die.

I doubt I would ever be considered a "terrorist"...

Keep your propaganda for those members and other people who would believe every BS lie there is in the internet.

[edit on 12-5-2007 by Muaddib]

What bs , I showed you that they do break the law, they do spy on people, and they do snach people off the street and hold them years with out charges.


[edit on 12-5-2007 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78

I agree that things need to change in china and I'm not defending it's sistem, but I just hate people that take credit for what they don't deserve.
What I don't agree on is on the fact that you don't see the good things, china was worst in the past, they did improve to a level.
There is freedom in china but to a limit.

And i hate it when people like yourself exagerate, and lie claiming the same things that are happening in China, or that were happening under Saddam's regime, or even during Hitler's time in Germany etc are happening in the U.S. when that is not true in the least...

in China it is not that some reporters are being spied on because they could have information about terrorists which they are keeping safe for future interviews, but instead just for being too democratic people are imprisoned.

China: Repression Spikes as People’s Congress Closes
Largest “Clean-up” of Protesters and Rights Activists in Years
(Hong Kong, March 14, 2007) – China’s annual session of the National People’s Congress (NPC) in Beijing has been marred by increasingly violent crackdowns on protesters, petitioners and rights activists across the country and a surge in house arrests of activists, Human Rights Watch said today.

Protests in Hunan and Guangdong provinces were violently suppressed on March 11 and March 12 respectively. In both cases, specially dispatched riot police attacked the crowds, according to eyewitnesses cited in international news reports. In Beijing, hundreds of petitioners have been rounded up over the past two weeks, in the largest “clean-up” operation by the police in recent years. Dozens of rights activists across the country are being held under house arrest or being so closely monitored that their freedom has been significantly impaired.

hrw.org...

The following is an excerpt of an interview done to two of the survivors from the September 30 2006 shooting in the Nangpa Pass, when 75 Chinese people were trying to leave China through this pass and Chinese military started shooting at them even though they saw these people were not armed, there were people who were shot dead or injured and left to die in the Nagpa Pass. Some of the people were arrested, including a little girl and were taken back to China.

Just read that entire interview and you will see the differences of what is happening in places like China and the U.S.

Q6. Where did you meet Chinese soldiers?

Ans. We walked for many days and reached near the Pass. When we reached there the sun was shining and the soldiers had arrived behind us.

Q7. What did the soldiers do then?

Ans. Then the soldiers were shouting, "Where you are going? Stop or we’ll start shooting." And they were chasing us and they started shooting continuously.

Q8. Were you all together that time?

Ans. They were 75 people together; some could walk fast and some could not. There were about 20 people with me and we were walking in a line close to each other because there was snow all over the place and we didn’t know the trail.

Q9. What did you do after soldiers gave these warnings?

Ans. There was no time to do anything except for running away and saving your own life. There was no time to help each other. There was a brother from Kandze [Dkar mdzes Tibetan Prefecture in Sichuan/Kham] behind me. I looked back and saw that he was shot in both legs. There was a nun ahead of me; she was also shot and fell down. During that time there were two girls ahead of me. They told me to run because the soldiers were killing people.

hrw.org...

Case Update: International Award for Petitioners Intercepted

April 27, 2007

Human Rights in China (HRIC) has learned that the certificates for an international housing award presented to several Chinese activists have been intercepted en route to several recipients.

In December 2006, the Geneva-based Centre on Housing Rights and Evictions (COHRE) presented its 2006 Housing Rights Defender Award jointly to Ma Yalian, Zheng Enchong, Xu Zhengqing, Fu Xiancai, Liu Zhengyou, Huang Weizhong and Chen Xiaoming in recognition of their outstanding commitment to the realization of housing rights for all people.

www.hrichina.org...

There have been some threads in these forums where members have claimed that things are better in China than in the United States because for example there are less people in prison in China than the United States... But the truth is that these members don't know or won't tell you that this is because in China people are legally executed for lesser crimes.

If someone is found with too many drugs they are accused of trying to sell drugs and that is a death sentence.

Chinese people ahve been executed for being too democratic, for belonging to religious groups, for evading taxes, or just because the Chinese court find these people a danger to society, even if the accused haven't done anything to support those claims...

There is "an estimated over 10,000 executions in China each year. It is estimated because the executions are secret. We only know of enough cases to put the figure at around 10,000 Chinese being executed each year.

China: Beijing Must Disclose Execution Numbers
Death Penalty Reform Welcomed but Does Not Go Far Enough
(Hong Kong, November 1, 2006) – China should disclose how many people are executed each year if death penalty reforms are to be effective, Human Rights Watch said today.

The Chinese legislature adopted death penalty reforms on October 31, 2006, mandating that the Supreme People’s Court review all death penalty verdicts imposed by Provincial Courts. This change, which will go into effect on January 1, 2007, is expected to reduce the number of people executed annually. However, it does nothing to lift the secrecy surrounding the number of executions, which is believed to be in excess of 10,000 per year.

“Unless the government discloses how many people it executes each year, the reform isn’t meaningful,” said Sophie Richardson, deputy Asia director of Human Rights Watch. “Hiding the numbers might save the government embarrassment, but this is not acceptable. Without releasing basic public information such as the overall number of executions, the type of crime that led to the sentence, and basic data about the executed, meaningful penal reform still has not been achieved.”

hrw.org...

[edit on 12-5-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by pepsi78
What bs

, I showed you that they do break the law, they do spy on people, and they do snach people off the street and hold them years with out charges.

And i already showed you as an example one of those people you wanted to claim were imprisoned for no reason was a lie on your part..... or you didn't know...whichever the case..

You might have not known it, but perhaps instead of trying to spread more exagerations/lies you should do a little more digging before making more exagerations or unkowingly, or knowingly whichever is the case, lying...

[edit on 12-5-2007 by Muaddib]

There aren't... There are programs like echelon that have been around since the 50s and look for certain words, or phrases, but in order to do what you and some in the press are claiming; that "President Bush is listening to millions of conversations", the government would need at least 3-4 agents for every person they are listening to...

Yes and the secret rooms with access cards and keys at AT&T where nsa agents come to do what? and to mention it's domestic spying just like the guy working at at&t said, conversations from united states to united states.
Dening the justice departament access to evaluation and investigation, very nice, and very democratic.

As I said before, there are Islamic extremists and other extremists that want nothing more than chaos in the U.S. and those people do use telephones and cell phones.... Perhaps some people think that "the terrorist should be allowed to do whatever they want"...and then those some people are the ones who yell "this is a dictatorship...the government allowed this to happen"....

Okay where are those people? so far they took people that lived in the us, they held them for a while and they let them go.
Can you please show me an example of some one.

And i already showed that there are anti-war groups who only want to start chaos in the U.S. because they have an agenda of their own...

Dude what agenda, they just don't like wars, they don't like bush and bush does not like them.
Their agenda is to stop the war, lol, they do have an agenda.
It's iligal to spy on them anyway, no matter how you put it, if they were ploting something why not press charges and take them to cort, because they can't prove anything?
I see....

Terrorists do tend to talk to some journalists

Where show me?

and there are journalists who, for whatever reason, keep the terrosists safe

HAHAHAHAHAHA, for some reason? what reason? don't tell me their all muslims, don't tell me is just a hunch of yours.
I can't see any evidence of that, in fact I see no indication from you that anything at all has a cover.

[quoe]
since "supposedly that's what reporters do.

Yes thats what they do, they ivastigate and then they show it on TV, bush gets upset and spys on them, makes more sence.

Some of the reporters have paid with their lives giving their trust to terrorists, such as Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearle, who was killed by terrorists after meeting them...

That does not mean he is aiding terrorists, on the contrary he wanted a story on tv or an article in the news paper, for the people to see and read
This are the jobs of real Journalists and reporters where they go out and investigate, and they search for answers, none of what you stated justifies spying on them.

But there are other "dumbasses journalists", no offense but that's what they are, who think they will get their fame by interviewing terrorists and keeping them safe because they can be sources for newspapers articles in the future...

Interviewing terrorists and keeping them safe?
I don't see how that is possible since in the first place a juralist or a reporter does it to get the story out.
Your idea of the press is totalitarian, and controled.

Things are not as straightforward as you think they are. Just because many people belong to "human right groups" or "anti-war groups" it doesn't mean everyone of them is a good person. There are quite a few extremists who infiltrate these groups to further their own agendas...

Yea every one is infiltrated, let's spy on every one for the sake of democracy by tapping phones.
Or let's spy on them because they are talking crap about geroge.

And in the past this has been done during times of war and emergency in the U.S. yet the U.S. didn't become a dictatorship.

So you do admit they are breaking laws..nice. it happened before maybe but not on this scale.

There are terrorists who are doctors, engineers etc and they kill/murder people...

Yes every one is a terrorist, doctors and engeniers , let's spy on them and find out , and if their not, but just talking crap about the gov let's harass them and throw them in jail just like we did with others on the ground of"NOTHING"

BS, you and many people in these forums "disagree with the U.S. government" yet you are not in prison, or are branded a terrorist....

And I will continiue to do this until bush leaves office, no because I'm not a jurnalist or a reporter, there are milions like me out there, I don't really have the power to let the word out sort of speak, the press, human rights gorups, anti war groups do have the power to influence things.
Did you see that kid that was listening to alex jones online radio, you know what happened to him, he got folowed by police, then he got tased with a taser "for not resisting arrest" then they put the dogs on him, they just had a little fun, then they took him and arested him on the charge of resisting arrest, but resisting arrest for what? since he was doing nothing wrong

[edit on 12-5-2007 by pepsi78]

And i already showed you as an example one of those people you wanted to claim were imprisoned for no reason was a lie on your part..... or you didn't know...whichever the case..

Yes like the german guy and the egiptian guy.

You might have not known it, but perhaps instead of trying to spread more exagerations/lies you should do a little more digging before making more exagerations or unkowingly, or knowingly whichever is the case, lying...

I can understand your concerns about that felow and you might be right, but regarding other people I see no lies, you forgot to quote me on the other 2 fellows, or you didint want to because you had no case , nothing to write about them....so you just skiped and quoted me on what you thought you may stand a chance on.

Originally posted by pepsi78

Yes and the secret rooms with access cards and keys at AT&T where nsa agents come to do what?

and to mention it's domestic spying just like the guy working at at&t said, conversations from united states to united states.
Dening the justice departament access to evaluation and investigation, very nice, and very democratic.

If there was any faul play it will be dealt with....

Originally posted by pepsi78
Okay where are those people? so far they took people that lived in the us, they held them for a while and they let them go.
Can you please show me an example of some one.

I will post some examples in another response...

Originally posted by pepsi78
Dude what agenda, they just don't like wars, they don't like bush and bush does not like them.
Their agenda is to stop the war, lol, they do have an agenda.
It's iligal to spy on them anyway, no matter how you put it, if they were ploting something why not press charges and take them to cort, because they can't prove anything?
I see....

What agenda would Communist groups have to infiltrate and form demonstration in the U.S. against Capitalism and the U.S. in general?.....

Anyways, in order to prove something you have to find something, and to find something you need to spy if there is reasonable doubt of having some connection with terrorism... even if it is just journalists trying to keep secret their sources so they can continue to have "something to write about" in the future...

BTW, if you don't know that there have been quite a few journalists who have interviewed terrorists you have been living under a rock for years...

Sometimes some of the journalists do end up with articles that are seen all around the world, but they don't live to read these articles...

Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl, kidnapped last month on his way to interview a Muslim fundamentalist leader in Pakistan, has been killed by his abductors, officials said Thursday. The U.S. government condemned his killing as "an outrage" and his newspaper called it an "act of barbarism."

FBI and Pakistani officials said they received a videotape containing "indisputable" confirmation that the 38-year-old Pearl had been killed.

archives.cnn.com...

And that's from CNN, one of your trusted networks...

Originally posted by pepsi78
Where show me?

This is not exactly about terrorism but it is an example of why there are some journalists being jailed in the U.S....

Are Bloggers Journalists?
Posted by Brian at 11:39 Thursday, August 3. 2006

First, the setup, with the story of a blogger being arrested after invoking his right as a journalist to shield his sources:

A freelance journalist and blogger was jailed on Tuesday after refusing to turn over video he took at an anticapitalist protest here last summer and after refusing to testify before a grand jury looking into accusations that crimes were committed at the protest.

The freelancer, Josh Wolf, 24, was taken into custody just before noon after a hearing in front of Judge William Alsup of Federal District Court. Found in contempt, Wolf was later moved to a federal prison in Dublin, Calif., and could be imprisoned until next summer, when the grand jury term expires, said his lawyer, Jose Luis Fuentes.

Earlier this year, federal prosecutors subpoenaed Wolf to testify before a grand jury and turn over video from the demonstration, held in the Mission District on July 8, 2005. The protest, tied to a Group of 8 meeting of world economic leaders in Scotland, ended in a clash between demonstrators and the San Francisco police, with one officer sustaining a fractured skull.

freejosh.pbwiki.com...

Here is an example of what some journalists depend on to make some of the articles and news they make in the U.S.

The following article is about terrorists in the U.S.

May 11, 2005
By Debbie Schlussel

Jihad Journalism: Detroit News’ Fabricated Terrorism “Reporting”

“Former Terrorism Suspect is Deported: Moroccan . . . Was Forced to Leave,” screamed a sympathetic headline in Gannett’s Detroit News, last week.

Problem is, the deportation of alleged Detroit terror cell member Ahmed Hannan never happened. Hannan is still here.

And other details in the apocryphal article by Detroit News reporter David Shepardson were also wrong or made-up. The May 3, 2005 article claimed that Hannan—who planned to blow up U.S. tourist sites and a U.S. Air Force Base in Turkey—was deported two weeks before the article ran. Yet, he’s still here. The article also reported that Hannan’s teeth were knocked out in a jailhouse fight, “last month.” But the fight happened on February 10, 2005, three months ago.

Had Shepardson done the least amount of real reporting –ie., fact-checking with the jail and the federal government, in whose custody Hannan remains—he would have discovered the truth. But Shepardson relied exclusively on alleged terrorist Hannan’s lawyer, Jim Thomas, for the entire story, and never checked a thing. (By the way, the sob-story Detroit News headline about Hannan being “Forced to Leave”? Hannan pled guilty to a federal crime. Should he be allowed to stay?)
.............
Yet, neither Shepardson, nor his editors, did even the most basic fact-checking or research for this and, we can assume, most of his articles. We can also assume that countless other stories written by Shepardson—and probably those by other Detroit News reporters with the same “editors” as Shepardson—are simply phony, fabricated, flat-out apocryphal.

Incredibly, just last month, Shepardson and the Detroit News earned a First Place in Investigative Reporting for this phony coverage from the parent Gannett Company.

www.debbieschlussel.com...

Originally posted by pepsi78
HAHAHAHAHAHA, for some reason? what reason? don't tell me their all muslims, don't tell me is just a hunch of yours.
I can't see any evidence of that, in fact I see no indication from you that anything at all has a cover.

Kid, do yourself a favor, and do read something else besides Al Jazeera, CNN, or the WSWS....

I already showed above articles which clearly demonstrates what I am saying is true. BTW....i never said "all journalists are in on it"...

Originally posted by pepsi78
Yes thats what they do, they ivastigate and then they show it on TV, bush gets upset and spys on them, makes more sence.

Now it is my time to laugh....

I showed above examples of why "some " journalists are being spied on....

Originally posted by pepsi78
That does not mean he is aiding terrorists, on the contrary he wanted a story on tv or an article in the news paper, for the people to see and read
This are the jobs of real Journalists and reporters where they go out and investigate, and they search for answers, none of what you stated justifies spying on them.

Yes they are when they are keeping their sources secret and do not want to give up their sources which could very well lead to the capture of terrorists....

Originally posted by pepsi78
Interviewing terrorists and keeping them safe?

Yes, as not giving up their sources...

Originally posted by pepsi78
Your idea of the press is totalitarian, and controled.

Not really people can say whatever they want, but interviewing terrorists and trying to keep them safe so they can have another story for some other time is different from "freedom"...

Originally posted by pepsi78
Yea every one is infiltrated, let's spy on every one

for the sake of democracy by tapping phones.
Or let's spy on them because they are talking crap about geroge.

............

Originally posted by pepsi78
So you do admit they are breaking laws..nice. it happened before maybe but not on this scale.

There are laws in place for when there is a national emergency...and terrorists wanting to destroy U.S. cities and kill Americans is a national emergency.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Yes every one is a terrorist, doctors and engeniers , let's spy on them and find out , and if their not, but just talking crap about the gov let's harass them and throw them in jail just like we did with others on the ground of"NOTHING"

Kid, where in the world did i say that "we have to spy on everyone"?....

Is this the sort of tactic you use to spread your BS propaganda?....

And yes there are terrorists who are doctors, engineers and from other professional careers...BTW Osama Bin Laden is an engineer in case you didn't know....



[edit on 12-5-2007 by Muaddib]

Islamic terrorism in America: NYC man pleads guilty of allegiance to al Qaeda
Submitted by admin on Thu, 2007-04-05 16:16. U.S. News

5 April 2007: New York City martial arts instructor and self-employed musician pleaded guilty yesterday to pledging allegiance to al Qaeda, and offering to train would-be terrorists in urban and hand-to-hand combat in court yesterday. Tariq Ibn Osman SHAH, 44 (a/k/a Tarik SHAH, Tarik JENKINS, Abu MUSAB) could receive up to 15 years in prison when sentenced on July 10. SHAH is one of four-(4) Islamic men – all U.S. residents – charged with conspiring to provide material support to Islamic terrorist organizations. Two other defendants, Farhane ABDULRAHMAN, the owner of a Muslim bookstore in Brooklyn, and Mahmud Faruq BRENT, a Maryland taxi driver, have already pleaded guilty in the case.

On Monday, BRENT pleaded guilty to attending a training camp in Pakistan facilitated by Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), a terrorist organization fighting Indian rule in the disputed Kashmir region. ABDULRAHMAN pled in November; the specifics of his plea and statements have not been released.

The trial for the fourth defendant, Rafiq SABIR, (a/k/a “the doctor”) a doctor from Boca Raton, Florida who studied martial arts under Shah, is scheduled to begin later this month. He is charged with agreeing to treat wounded terrorists in Saudi Arabia.

www.homelandsecurityus.com...

Some examples above that terrorists can be college graduates and even be doctors....

BTW, this is not a problem that is only happening in the U.S.

Islam:
Netherlands: Hofstad Islamic terrorist group appeal case starts today
ANP, via Expatica, Netherlands
May 9, 2007

AMSTERDAM – The appeal case against seven members of the Hofstad group starts today. The men were convicted by the court last year.

Among those standing trial once again are Jason W. and Ismail A, who were arrested in the Laakkwartier area of The Hague in November 2004.

Nouriddin El F. will also be in court again. He was arrested with a loaded machine gun at a station in Amsterdam in June 2005.

www.religionnewsblog.com...

As i have said so many times in the past not all Muslim people are terrorists, in fact several Moderate Muslims have died at the hands of extremists for not following the extremist ways.

Here is an example of charitable organizations, and some human right groups funding terrorism, such as EHRA and IHH.

I am not able to excerpt from that site but do yourself a favor and read at least the first page....

Oops, this is the right link.

www.globalterroralert.com...

Anyways, I got to go. I want to spend the rest of the 5 hours of daylight I still have left in the mountains.

[edit on 12-5-2007 by Muaddib]

If there was any faul play it will be dealt with....

That will be the day....when pigs start to fly.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Dude what agenda, they just don't like wars, they don't like bush and bush does not like them.
Their agenda is to stop the war, lol, they do have an agenda.
It's iligal to spy on them anyway, no matter how you put it, if they were ploting something why not press charges and take them to cort, because they can't prove anything?
I see....

What agenda would Communist groups have to infiltrate and form demonstration in the U.S. against Capitalism and the U.S. in general?.....

Against capitalism? capitalism is just a form of economics it has nothing to do with democracy, democracy is related to human rights , to the rights in the constitution, capitalism is simply related to economic issues, corporations, has nothing to do with it.
A republic can be democratic with social values or with capitalistic values.
Frace, italy is at the other end being more social than capitalist.
I don't really understand what you are trying to say, it does not make sence.

BTW, if you don't know that there have been quite a few journalists who have interviewed terrorists you have been living under a rock for years...

Yes, because they wanted a story out in to the public, and second of all not all terrorist organisations or so called terrorist are at war with united states.
Hesbolah is more than an guerila army then a terrorist group, they are not involved in attacks on united states.
Hamas part of it is a terrorist group, they fight in the middle east with israel, they also are not involved in attacks in united states.

This brings us to alcaida, tell me how many jurnalistshave interviewed alcaida terroists, can you count them on your fingers?
How about the reporters that never left united states and are being spyed upon?

Sometimes some of the journalists do end up with articles that are seen all around the world, but they don't live to read these articles...

risks comes with the job, it's what they do, don't tell me now that they are protecting jurnalists by controling who they interview, and where they search, then It's bye bye to the free press.

This is not exactly about terrorism but it is an example of why there are some journalists being jailed in the U.S....

A freelance journalist and blogger was jailed on Tuesday after refusing to turn over video he took at an anticapitalist protest here last summer and after refusing to testify before a grand jury looking into accusations that crimes were committed at the protest.

Well do you want democracy or do you want somthing else, witneses do not have to testify in a trial if they chose not to, as long as they did not commit the crime in cause, testyfing before a jury is not necesary by law, as long as you are not the person in cause commiting the crime.
Since this case is not related to terrorism, I don't really see why they would do such a thing.

Here is an example of what some journalists depend on to make some of the articles and news they make in the U.S.

The following article is about terrorists in the U.S.

May 11, 2005
By Debbie Schlussel

Jihad Journalism: Detroit News’ Fabricated Terrorism “Reporting”

“Former Terrorism Suspect is Deported: Moroccan . . . Was Forced to Leave,” screamed a sympathetic headline in Gannett’s Detroit News, last week.

Problem is, the deportation of alleged Detroit terror cell member Ahmed Hannan never happened. Hannan is still here.

Well from the name it's self, jihad jurnalism, I'm not talking about those g, talking about the american media.

And other details in the apocryphal article by Detroit News reporter David Shepardson were also wrong or made-up. The May 3, 2005 article claimed that Hannan—who planned to blow up U.S. tourist sites and a U.S. Air Force Base in Turkey—was deported two weeks before the article ran. Yet, he’s still here. The article also reported that Hannan’s teeth were knocked out in a jailhouse fight, “last month.” But the fight happened on February 10, 2005, three months ago.

So what you are going to jail jurnalist for not geting their story right?

Incredibly, just last month, Shepardson and the Detroit News earned a First Place in Investigative Reporting for this phony coverage from the parent Gannett Company.

www.debbieschlussel.com...

Yes , to jail with all of them because they didin't manage to get it right.

I already showed above articles which clearly demonstrates what I am saying is true. BTW....i never said "all journalists are in on it"...

But some of them are, leting comunists and terrorists get you in united states, this is a fary tail.

I showed above examples of why "some " journalists are being spied on....

Yes because they didint manage to get their story right and messed up, and because they try to do their jobs.

Not really people can say whatever they want, but interviewing terrorists and trying to keep them safe so they can have another story for some other time is different from "freedom"...

And all of this with out anything to back it up, and you just go and give an example of hey this is not really about terrorism but about a riot, but just to show you, you know, that is why they are under survailance.
And about reporters that mess up and not geting their story right has nothing to do with keeping secrets, so far on this reporter's secret quest story of yours you have failed to produce any evidence at all.

There are laws in place for when there is a national emergency...and terrorists wanting to destroy U.S. cities and kill Americans is a national emergency.

It's not national emergency every day is it?

Is this the sort of tactic you use to spread your BS propaganda?....

What BS? i'm just telling you as it is.

Your point of view heads on a path to a totalrian rejime, you see that is why I mind, people that don't aply the rules of democracy come out and talk about others, maybe some one else should say it, and they should say it, but some one cleaner, bush talking to china is like looking in the mirror and talking to his self, did you ever see big democratic leaders dressing up in a military outfit, I know sadam use to do that but so did bush, they even had baners with "bush your leader" or something like that for a period of time.



[edit on 12-5-2007 by pepsi78]

Now more about china, didin't know about those buses, it's sure sad, I wonder if they are going to hold the olimpics there anymore.
Besides bashing china what else can people do, I mean they got a nuclear arsenal, sanctions? but who would vote on them, china is a very big exporter, voting for sanctions would drain the economy of alot of countrys
that depend on chinesse goods.