Walking away from God

I'm curious because for a while, a long while in my life I thought it was God who would turn away from mankind, specifically me, but there were many others who agreed and felt the same and..(probably still do)

Now I think quite the opposite that it's men/women/us that turn from God for reasons unbeknown to someone other then theirselves.

What do you think?

Yes thats right. We in our omnipitance turn away from God for whatever reasons, not realising he never left us. I always remember the story about the Rich mans son who turned away and then came back again, thinking his father had disowned him, when all the while he had never stopped waiting for his return.

Here's a kicky little site debating Free Will versus PREDESTINATION: www.geocities.com...

Hard for me to even think of why one might turn from an all powerful God, unless it was part of the plan all along.

For the reason(s) maybe that I posted in the first topic. Sometimes a person may 'think' that God has turned away but over the years and perhaps curiosity alone getting the best of a person, we may accidentally turn from God completely.

Now I do believe that God may give us room to 'explore' by releasing His grasp on a person. He did this according to some of the writings in the bible. The reason He did and may still do this to date is to test us. Some people require tests..whereas others may not.

Rant-You make a valid point, perhaps some of the reasons ARE part of His grand plan. If a person just drifts through life thinking they believe in God, when infact they are lost, perhaps a little waking and shaking about is Gods way of showing the person that they didn't have the faith and belief in God as they thought they had.

Gods plans we can't possibly know. We can guess and assume all we want, but we can't know for sure. I am assuming His plan or ultimate goal is to keep all souls from being lost in limbo or damned to hell.

Originally posted by magestica
I am assuming His plan or ultimate goal is to keep all souls from being lost in limbo or damned to hell.

I understand your free will assertion and analogy of allowing one to explore, but the whole Free Will versus Predestination debate plays most in your statement above.

Free Will tends to fall apart at that level (as Calvin challenged Martin Luther). If you ascribe to all this, SOMEBODY has to go to hell. And it's less of the person's choosing or action than his role as God's puppet. Calvisim had some pretty ego-centric roots, but they were logical.

If someone in the early Church suddenly 'fell' or backslid into sin as it were....they didn't turn their back or God, or lose faith, etc. They were like a "plant".... they never were saved to begin with. You can't lose what you never had.

It's head scratchy stuff. If someone were to suddenly be saved, to God they always were saved. And the reverse is true.

Free-will is a bugaboo (from God's perspective).

I'm a little 'new' with this predestination/free will stuff you are presenting. I respect your views. However, why does "somebody" HAVE to go to hell?

In passing I was discussing this amongst family and friends and I said "It would not even shock me if after everything is said and done, that God may even forgive Lucifer" Is this so impossible? Again, we cannot know for sure what His plans are for His children of the earth.
It may seem as though we have free will and we may be entitled to free will..but we cannot know this until the *end*..Can we?

I do believe God is forgiving..but just 'how' forgiving remains to be seen.

Originally posted by RANT

Originally posted by magestica


If someone in the early Church suddenly 'fell' or backslid into sin as it were....they didn't turn their back or God, or lose faith, etc. They were like a "plant".... they never were saved to begin with. You can't lose what you never had.

This statement is true ONLY if you accept the extreme Calvinistic view that "once saved always saved"...which I do not. I AM Calvinist, but this doctrine, which has been misunderstood and then drilled in as dogma to the Calvinist protestants doesn't sit with me.

Here are my reasons why:

1. Free will dictates that "once saved always saved" cannot be true. No where in the "Roman road to salvation" does it state - "Oh, and by the way, once you decide to believe and accept salvation you will be required to turn in your free moral agency ticket. There's no turning back!" What the scriptures DO say, clearly, is that we cannot ACT our way out of salvation. It is nonmeritorious. A gift. But we can refuse the gift, even after we have accepted it. We CAN stop believing.

2. The Bible have several scriptures that point toward the ability to relinquish one's faith. It clearly states that names can be stricken from the Book of Life. One contention could be that we all start there and choose our way out of it, until you take into account Revelation 13:8 which clearly and specifically states "everyone whose name has NOT been WRITTEN in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered from the foundation of the world." So, we must be written in FIRST. Then we most definitely can be stricken from. And then, finally, The Revelation speaks of the "great apostasy" that will take place in the latter days.

Apostasy - falling away from; falling out of. By definition, you can NOT be an apostate if you never believed. You did not fall from believing if you never accepted the Christ doctrine.

3. The extreme Calvinistic argument of the "plant which never took root" is so much hogwash. An attempt to back an unbased doctrine with unfounded arguments and misapplication of scripture in my mind.

The scriptures say that God wants un to come to him (via acceptance of Christ's sacrifice) as "babes to milk" - pretty much wide-eyed and innocent. But, it also clearly states that that there must be work toward "spiritual maturity". Some protestant denominations have misapplied this warning and gone so far as to say that you must be "filled with the Holy Spirit - evidenced via "gifts - i.e. speaking in tongues, whatever" before you are truly saved. Again, hogwash. No scriptural foundation to these requirements. But I DO believe, that the warning to work toward spiritual growth and maturity is there for a reason...and it is there because of the parable and warning of plants that did not take deep root.

If you do not grow in your beliefs, if you do not attain a level of spiritual wisdom to discern false doctrine, then you are sitting in a position to become apostate. That kind of makes common sense, doesn't it? It is WRONG for the extreme Calvinists to argue that these people who did not study the word and grow spiritually and eventually became confused and stopped believing were NEVER saved. Bull hockey.

P.S. In response to magestica's original post:

I believe that God's mercies are always available to ALL. If we are walking in God's will, the "umbrella of mercy" casts its shadow of protection against all that ALREADY exists around us. When we do not seek God's will, but our own, we begin to walk out from under this umbrella of mercy and into the position of nonprotection. God doesn't move the umbrella, we walk out into the bitter rain.

Yes, I also believe that God, no matter who he/she is to you, or what you call him/her, protects and watches over us.

Originally posted by Valhall
It is WRONG for the extreme Calvinists to argue that these people who did not study the word and grow spiritually and eventually became confused and stopped believing were NEVER saved. Bull hockey.

I know what you're saying Valhall, and the popular modern interpretation is to move away from the extreme ramifications of the logic surrounding an all-powerful God...but it remains, as I said "head scratchy" to me. I grew up in a Calvinist tradition as well, but one that tried to use the whole predeterminism angle as a fear tactic (which is probably wrong, but still very compelling). It reinforces the all-seeing, all-knowing God ABOVE any subject-centric free will, while at the same time saying from your own perspective you do have free will.

It's like a God's view versus your view reinforcement. Basically, yes you have free will...but God already knows every decision you'll make. In fact, he knew a millenia ago. Your 'free will' is based not in confusion, but knowing already what the right thing to do is. There's no struggle to following God. Just do it. If you do, it's proof God meant for you to. If you don't, or remain luke warm, or on the fence (whatever) it's proof you're mostly here just to tempt others/ serve as an example.

The fear tactic though is a logical one. You know doing X is wrong, yet you struggle. Why? If you want to do X so bad, do it. Go. We don't need you. Better yet, you know it's wrong...so why are you struggling? Be saved already. You already know if you're saved or not...so act like it. Quit bringing us down, if you're not.

That kind of thing. I've heard this from all angles, like the fallen angels didn't rebel...they were made to be a rebel force. Similarly God made harlots and abortionists and X and Y and Z. (I know I'm quoting old school fire and brimstone, but it still exists).

I don't subscribe to it. But that upbringing, along with a sincere subsequent philosophical & religious exploration made me pretty much wash my hands of the whole darn thing. Religion-wise. Or just decide to go ahead and be 'damned'... why not? God made me this way. Or there is no God. Either way, I don't have much choice do I?

* Because they don't believe in almightyness
* Because they don't believe in a 7 days creation
* Because they don't believe in the world creation 12,000 years ago
* Because science proves differently
* Because sciences makes clear what the idea of God does also

Main reasons for not believing in God anymore.
Ps. next to this God killed a lot.

Wait wait wait...please enlightenment on when God HIMSELF came down and killed? I believe you mean his PEOPLE killed, right?


-wD

Something I've always liked hearing, and have it hanging on my wall. Just a little somethin' somethin' for the days when you feel God is walking away from you:

Footprints

One night a man had a dream. He dreamed he was walking along the beach with the Lord. Across the sky flashed scenes from his life. For each scene, he noticed two sets of footprints in the sand; one belonged to him, and the other to the Lord.

When the last scene of this life flashed before him, he looked back at the footprints in the sand. He noticed that many times along the path of his life there was only one set of footprints. He also noticed that it happened at the very lowest and saddest times in his life.

This really bothered him and he questioned the Lord about it. "Lord, you said that once I decided to follow you, you'd walk with me all the way. But I have noticed that during the most troublesome times in my life, there is only one set of footprints. I don't understand why when I needed you the most you would leave me."

The Lord replied, "My precious, precious child, I love you and I would never leave you. During your times of trial and suffering, when you only see one set of footprints, it was then that I carried you."

Margaret Powers 1964

Thank you very much for your time and words in response here. Just letting you know your posts have been read by me and I am understanding and appreciative..highly!

RANT-You certainly present a very good point in opposition here. This is our struggle I suppose as humans, the constant battle within of good and evil, right and wrong and still hoping to be forgiven or do well enough as a human being to pass through the gates of heaven when our time is over. Is this not one reason God sent down His son to die for all the rest of His children? And for it to be known and written in the bible? There is reason and there is purpose in all that God has done and continues to do. One day we might understand..or not.

I don't suggest walking away from God, intentional or not. Finding your way back is much more difficult then walking away. When God releases His grasp, even the slightest and says "Go child and seek the knowledge you are searching for" I would think twice. God is no joke and His love for us most powerful and that is all the mystery and intrigue we should ever seek.

Thanks to all of you that have written some thoughts here and thanks for resurfacing the lovely poem Footprints..always a very moving and inspiring read
Mags

Originally posted by WeBDeviL
Wait wait wait...please enlightenment on when God HIMSELF came down and killed? I believe you mean his PEOPLE killed, right?

-wD

Wasn't God the one which let the Flood happen?
Wasn't God the one which drowned the Egyptian army and let all the plagues happen?
Isn't God the one which let's the Apocalypse happen?

No I mean God killed, not people.

Why would I think god turned away from me, when I never saw any evidence that he existed in the first place? If it's too much trouble for him to prove that he exists, then I'm quite sure it's not very important to believe in him. More likely, there just never was a god to turn away from. I've seen some horrible chaos in my life, and no one "carried" me through them. I made it on my own strength. I didn't lean on any gods because I've never had any reason to believe there are any. The only reason I ever believed in god, as a kid, was the same reason I believed in Santa Claus....someone told me to believe, and I wasn't smart enough to question the existence of either, for awhile. Yes, I tried prayer, at one time of my life, and I really wanted to believe it would help. It never produced any results that would convince me that anyone ever heard them.

[Edited on 1-3-2004 by Satyr]

Originally posted by Valhall
P.S. In response to magestica's original post:

I believe that God's mercies are always available to ALL. If we are walking in God's will, the "umbrella of mercy" casts its shadow of protection against all that ALREADY exists around us. When we do not seek God's will, but our own, we begin to walk out from under this umbrella of mercy and into the position of nonprotection. God doesn't move the umbrella, we walk out into the bitter rain.

Well said, Valhall. I agree with this perspective completely.

Originally posted by LeenBekkemaa

Originally posted by WeBDeviL
Wait wait wait...please enlightenment on when God HIMSELF came down and killed? I believe you mean his PEOPLE killed, right?

-wD

Wasn't God the one which let the Flood happen?
Wasn't God the one which drowned the Egyptian army and let all the plagues happen?
Isn't God the one which let's the Apocalypse happen?

No I mean God killed, not people.

We cannot know why God chooses to do what He does, be it give us life in the world or taketh away.
And which is worse anyway?

We blame God for wiping out people, taking someone from us too soon etc etc..in fact I hear from people all the time that "God is to blame when something goes wrong or someone dies"

What an amazing job as a father God must have! And why not praise Him when someone dies? Could it be that God sees what 'we' cannot possibly see and that what He may infact see is that "these people, or this person has fulfilled their time on earth and is now worthy of going to a higher existance"? In no way am saying this is one of His reasons, but it's a much nicer thought then hating and blaming Him for some of the choices He makes.

God is to be loved and worshipped but He is also fierce and to be feared! There is no time with God, our minds are not even remotely capable of understanding Him and/or His reasoning. He is the alpha and the omega.

I do not think it's a legitimate excuse to hate or not believe in God because He "kills"! And this excuse is the main one I hear AND read from people who choose not to believe in God!
Magestica

Magestica

We cannot know why God chooses to do what He does, be it give us life in the world or taketh away.
And which is worse anyway?
We are made to his equal, and concerning the hundreds of thousands of pages written about him, we could know very well why he chooses to do what he does. It is worse if something can take life away, like we take life away from animals with feelings.

We blame God for wiping out people, taking someone from us too soon etc etc.. in fact I hear from people all the time that "God is to blame when something goes wrong or someone dies"
What a wonder concerning him to be almighty. And the other persons blame Satan, while he was the one which tried to save the Egyptians against the God of Moses. A wonder we blame him for wiping out people while he also actually did.

Magestica you have a certain image of God, that�s fine with me. But you talk about higher existence and stuff, what if the so-called higher existence is something far more different then you would believe it would be. What if the whole idea about God would be false, then where would the idea be of justifying and �not blaming God� for killing. Would it be nicer to believe in something which could perhaps be totally false?

Wasn�t there something that Satan was the ultimate deceivement? Wouldn�t it be if God was Satan?

God is to be loved and worshipped but He is also fierce and to be feared! There is no time with God, our minds are not even remotely capable of understanding Him and/or His reasoning. He is the alpha and the omega.

I do not think it's a legitimate excuse to hate or not believe in God because He "kills"! And this excuse is the main one I hear AND read from people who choose not to believe in God!
Magestica

No ofcourse we are not capable of understanding him, because what if we would, then we wouldn�t be that happy perhaps anymore, or would we? (Ps. Hearing we can�t understand God is the most heard argument I have heard, while it is so easily dismissed looking at all the written pages).

And what if the idea of God would be false, then where would the idea be that ��it isn�t a legitimate excuse to hate or not believe in God because he kills��. Where would it be if it turns out to be totally different then what you would have thought.

Yes, then persons like you would have devoted their lives to God, trying to get the love they thought they would get, while God just would kill them, just like he killed the Egyptians which believed in the same God (from Sirius). Wouldn�t it be sad if it turns out to be that way?

All what is said is based upon the idea of God, not upon the texts themselves, trying to cover it up with saying the ways aren't understandable and stuff.

If that idea would be false, then all those self-thought-up coverups don't save your life, only the reality as is written is then true, not the ideas humans have.

The idea of ''God has a reason for killing'' doesn't work anymore then for the Apocalypse, but you will see.