Russia Has Suspended The CFE

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Rocky, you're missing the point. Why did America never conventionally invade China, Russia, or North Korea. The answer is easy-NUKES! War is obsolete, the toughest enemies cannot be beaten even by the toughest enemies through mutually assured destruction as you yourself said and the weakest enemies never die through the magic of insurgency. Now only if everyone realized that...

Easy really.

Never fight a land war in Asia.

Please, name me an empire, kingdom or nation state that has successfully invaded and destroyed Russia.

America could never, and most likely still cannot invade Russia, especially back then when their military was more on par with ours.

Also, I completely agree with what Maloy has said.

Sucessfully invaded and occupied, hmm the Mongols are one. They even razed the capital which I think was Kiev at the time.

Mongols never invaded Russia, because Russia did not exist at the time. There was a vast multitude of unallied kingdoms all fighting one another for the most part. And the Mongols had to ally with local lord in order to hold on to territory. In fact what united the small kingdoms was when they threw the Mongols out, and ultimately the Russian empire arose.

I don't see the point of caring that Russia has done this?

The Russian political system is a in a tad of a mess. Beating up old ladies and old chess champs. What they need is a solid bit of macho posturing grrrrrrr look at the size of my guns.

The whole MAD concept is vaible untill one side or the other finds a way to make ICBM's completely obsolete, and when that happens! "BOOM" That or the aliens will show themselves and call time on stupidity.

Originally posted by ChiKeyMonKey
The Russian political system is a in a tad of a mess. Beating up old ladies and old chess champs. What they need is a solid bit of macho posturing grrrrrrr look at the size of my guns.

Beating up old ladies is a national sport and a Russian tradition, much like in Kazakhstan. Another tradition is wrestling with bears while after 5 shots of vodka, and hunting dissidends around the world - there is even a reality show- "Where in the World is the Dissident". Borat could probably explain it better.

Kasparov was never beaten up nor was there a scuffle when they took him in. He was released after a few hours, and so were 90% of the detained protestors. Not 1 protestor remained in custody after 2 days, unless they had arrest warrants in their name or other charges.

And just so everyone knows- For that protests Kasparov allied with Limonov's notorious youth group, which made up 60% to 70% of the protestors.

These guys are NatsBols- Nationalist Bolsheviks. They propagate return to communism and "Greater Russia", and eventual invasion and revolution in of all of Europe. For now they call on "Russia only for Russians"- to limit freedoms of non-ethnical Russians, and to persecute harder the ethnicities who cause trouble, such as Chechens. They are against Putin, against NATO, against US, against Democrats, and pretty much against everyone who is anyone. They define the word fanatics in Russia, and people view them as part clowns, part credible threat. Many were recenty detained because of weapons stockpiling.

As for their leader and Kasparov's new best buddy- Limonov- this guy is a real piece of work. Participated in a night raid by Serbian paramilitary snipers in Sarajevo. Called for destroying all ethnic Albanians in Respublika Srpska and Kosovo. US and West Europe never mentioned this in their protest news coverage- I wonder if most people there even know who they are supporting.

Now tell me- is it right or wrong to keep a nutjob like Limonov and his merry band of skinhead-nationalist-communist-supremacists from Russian politics?

I don't know wtf Kasparov is thinking allying with them, seeing how he is Jewish and himself of non-Russian ethnicity. But he is respected in Russia, and police never beat him or interogated him, and would never dare to.

I think there are 2 agendas being played out here.

I think Russia has an agenda, and the US has one. It has been stated numerous times that this missile shield wouldn't protect anyone if Russia decides to do anything.

Russia is getting huffy and puffy because they have not been given the respect they think they deserve for the past...17 years? The US ran around doing whatever the hell it wanted without any heed to what Russia or anyone wanted. Russia misses the old days when they said, "Nahw you stoop thare or ahll keel uu!"

So Putin, who has now lots of money from oil, says, hey...if you want to do things with countries near us, we're going to pull out of The CFE (something which we don't like anyway!) because you are putting missile shields and a radar system in countries near us...He pounds his chest, and says, we'll show you.

Back in Washington...
This is LUDICROUS-Condi

We want as many subservient countries to be part of our NATO family as possible and Russia is being a little bitch.

My thoughts...
The shield will be used as back up against an attack against Iran. And this Russia and US squabblingis just politics.





[edit on 29-4-2007 by RetinoidReceptor]

Don't forget that NATO have said it would ratify the CFE if Russia pulled its troops out of Transnistria (Tiraspol). I bet that Russia doesn't like NATO/US building bases in Romania, and this might also be the reason why NATO didn't ratify the CFE. This missile shield is just an excuse. Russia don't like the missile shield (of course) but it's not the main reason why they suspended the CFE.

I thought that Russia had already withdrawn from the CFE altogether. However, it seems like they've given NATO one year to ratify the adapted CFE.

Kommersant: Russia Calls on NATO to Ratify European Arms Control Pact

Latest:

Russia are going to call for an emergency conference regarding the CFE soon.

RIA Novosti: Russia to call urgent conference on CFE - FM - 1

For some reason everybody is talking about the new missile shield, and there's no mention of the CFE at all. Why is that? It's a conspiracy, I tell ya. Here's some recent threads on ATS. It has begun...


US-Russia arms race to neutralise Europe

Putin says:" I'll Point My Missiles at Europe"

US bases: 'Russia misleading public'

I wouldn't be overtly worried about Russias withdrawal from CFE as Russia is scaling down the numbers in it's military. Russian army is currently focusing more and more on quality over quantity. And the tranformation to professional military is happening at the moment. Several conscript units in Western Russia have been allready turned into professional units
(at least 76th Division in Pskov and a Marine brigade in Kola/Murmansk)

Extraordinary CFE Conference in Vienna June 12-15 Failed

The "emergency meeting" in Vienna regarding the CFE, produced no results. The key seems to be Transnistria (Tiraspol). NATO refuses to ratify the adapted CFE unless Russia pull its troops out of Transnistria, but the Russians refuses to pull out.


RIA Novosti: Russia dissatisfied with CFE extraordinary conference -1


RIA Novosti: Washington's moment of truth

Daniel Fried, assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs, made it clear in Vienna that Russia had met the requirements of the United States in Georgia, a country on Russia's southern border, but had not complied with its wishes in Transdnestr.

Sounds like CFE was a ploy to back Russia into a corner regardless of what they did...

Lets see... Russia was one of the few actually holding the CFE up... did you hear about that? No.

Russia backed out of the CFE. Even though they were one of the last holding it up, they become the bad guys... Doesn't make sense.

Now Nato refuses to enact a new version of the CFE, unless Russia complies.



EUROPE is in NO POSITION to negotiate with Russia right now. EUROPE violated their own treaty. Europe expected Russia to do the work, and now Europe expects Russia to change before they make a new version.

Up yours Europe... follow the rules you make.

[edit on 19-6-2007 by johnsky]

Russia Quits CFE With Immediate Effect

Ok, now it's official. Today, Putin suspended the CFE with immediate effect. "Extraordinary circumstances require immediate measures". No more talking...


Russia Pulls Out of European Arms Control Treaty (by djohnsto77)


FoxNews

July 14, 2007


President Vladimir Putin signed a decree suspending Russia's participation in the Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty due to "extraordinary circumstances ... which affect the security of the Russian Federation and require immediate measures," the Kremlin said in a statement.

I wonder if the recent developments in Moldova could be related to this sudden decision?

I wonder how this will effect Georgia and some of the other ex-ussr lands that were lost after the break up. Maybe Putin will use this to start building the military once agian and bringing some honor back to them.

This had to do more with the U.S. bases being built in Romania and Bulgaria than with the ABM facils. in Poland and Czech Republic.

I agree with the consensus opinion; only four countries even ratified this - Russia, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, and Belarus, while all other POS nations failed to do so.

The treaty held Russia hostage in its own nation, tantamount to blackmail. Perhaps during the 90s NATO was in a position to enforce holding Russia hostage, but it no longer can.

It's funny hearing complaints from the militant anti-Russian countries of Russia, Estonia, and Lithuania who live in a make-believe world.

Bravo to Russia and Putin

Russia Says CFE Emergency Conference Unnecessary

NATO has proposed an emergency conference on the CFE. NATO repeated that if Russia pull its troops out of Georgia and Moldova they will ratify the CFE, but Russia said no. On December 13, Russia's CFE moratorium is to come into force. Russia want NATO to ratify the CFE, even though Russia has not yet fulfilled its Istanbul obligations.


Xinhua:CFE emergency conference unnecessary: Russia

Ukraine

In case Russia abandons the CFE in December, Ukraine will take "adequate measures" to provide its security. Both diplomatic and military-political steps will be taken.


Ukrainian Defense Ministry: if Russia abandons Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe Ukraine Ukraine will take adequate measures to provide its security

As he told the Cabinet's call conference, obviously we will consider not only unilateral action inside the country, but also multilateral action considering interests of our partners, either European and strategic partners, USA and Canada. According to him, it will be both diplomatic and military-political steps to be specified at the NSDC's sitting.

I wonder if Ukraine will do anything about Crimea and the remaining Russian naval forces there. If it does, you can bet there will be trouble - not from Russia but from Crimea. The Crimean Parliament right now is completely at odds with Uschenko's administration, and with the rise of the government's nationalistic idealogy Crimea will try to move further and further towards autonomy.

Maloy,
I allways tought that people in Crimea were mostly of Russian background and looking to reunite with Russia rather than drive for independency. Thanks for correcting my misunderstanding

Deny Ignorance

They do want to unite with Russia, just like Abkhazia and Transdniester. But both they and Russia realize that this is far too difficult because of the far-stretching political consequences it will have - and deeply soured relations between Russia and Ukraine that this would create. So now Russia is not interested in having Crimea be a part of it. An independent Crimea however would be better, and would still cater to the Russian Black Fleet - which is what Russia wants. It would be more or less like Belarus is now - which is more beneficial for Russia (if not for Crimea).

Plus there is a large minority of Tatars in Crimea, who want to be neither part of Ukraine nor part of Russia, but an independent state. Currently there is a major struggle going on in Crimea for land, where Tatars lay claim to land based on historical ownership. The problem is that that land doesn't belong to them, and there have been some violent confrontations. Crimea could become such a mess that neither Russia nor Ukraine will want anything to do with it.