Barry Bonds is leading the NL in home runs, did steroids really matter that much after all?

Baseball loved the juice. It helped return the sport to its former glory days. Remember, the strike killed them for a while and the homerun surges brought the fans back in droves. Baseball owners and management knew what was going on and allowed it.

My uncle is friends with a psychiatrist who was, several years ago, the MLB shrink for the players. He quit his job because he was worried that he'd be damaged by the fallout when the steroid use in baseball became publicly known. This was before it all broke in the news. He told my uncle they all use it. He even mentioned players like Jeter as users. I am of the opinion that the players that you see in the papers, with their 50 or 100 game suspensions, are sacrificial lambs to keep the public in the dark as to how little they are doing to stop it.

There were rumors that Clemens mid year reinstatement last season was a result of his being caught at the end of the previous year and he couldn't play anyway to he retired and then came out of retirement.

JbT

How about the fact that the early Bonds was a small lanky player who used his speed. Then over night or over an offseason he show's up like the Black avenger smashing everything over the fence.

Yeah steroids mattered, because they're steroids...


I hate to see Bonds break the greatest record of all, it just makes me feel like Hank was knocked out of his glory by a cheater. :shk:

[edit on 17/5/2007 by enjoies05]

Originally posted by Royal76
JbT

How about the fact that the early Bonds was a small lanky player who used his speed. Then over night or over an offseason he show's up like the Black avenger smashing everything over the fence.

First...

Then over night or over an offseason

I understand your trying to exaggerate, but there is a lot of difference there.

Medically speaking, I dont have a clue.

But... I can tell you from my own experience (and body type) that my father went from being a 35 year old active dude @ 170ish LBS. What seemed like over night, his body bulked up to about 200LBS, a little bit of fat, but for the most, he just got thicker. Essecially in the forearms and trunk/chest. He only plays softball mind you. hahahah.

Now, bonds always had hall of fame type batting power, only that when he was lighter he seems to rap more line drive type hits.

Ill put my neck out and say this for sure. A hitter of Barry Bond's quality can change their swing path to try for more fly balls, or one the other hand, level his swing out for line drives like he used to as a younger player.

IMO, Bond relised that his knees were giving out on him before the media picked up on it. He then around 1998 changed his gameplay and maybe body/workout routine. Why try to hit triples if you cant run there? Maybe he did hit some juice, I dont know. But like I said above, Bonds has the ability to change his swing type regardless of the juice or not.

Look at his numbers before 1998. There is no question that even before the possible juice that he was one of the best batters of all time. If you belive one of the best hitters of all time couldnt change his swing plane for Home Runs, from his Line Drive swing, well then you dont know enough about baseball for me to even keep arguing.

Like John Lear said in a post I was reading yesterday "Lets agree to disagree".

I wanted to post one more thing.

You all do relise that the distance that the ball flys has far less to do with brute strength, that it does with speed dont you?

The distance the ball flys is more directly influenced by the Swing Speed of the Bat making contact with the baseball, and not the stength of the person behind the bat. In other words, its more important to be quick, than overly strong.

This is why you see little dudes like Alex Rios (6,2 - 195LBS) or Uggla (5,11 - 200lbs) or Orlando Hudson (6,0 - 195LBS) able to pound out Homers in numbers.

Does the stength help? Of course. But Bat Speed is 90% of it im sure.

Bonds in his youth was a prime example of this. His Bat Speed has always been crazy. His Eyes are the best. Change your swing a little for Homers, and voila! Humer Run King!

Its obvious from the topic of this post that his Swing Speed is still there and that surely his Homes Runs have less to do with the juice, than it does with the fact that at his old age he still has that kind of speed in his swing. Not to mention the hand-eye or "Batters Vision".

Next thing, Im sure people will argue that the juice is not giving him the Brute Force, but that the juice is letting him swing so fast. Dont worry, Im ready for that one....

.... My Opinion has always been that if he was on the juice, it was fair. As there is more Pitchers caught offically than there is Batters and Fielders combined. Its sad, yes. But it is an "eye for an eye" so it speak.

[edit on 17-5-2007 by JbT]

Go BARRY!!!!!!

Nuff said.

Untill you cough up a postive test he is innocent untill proven guilty

Originally posted by JbT

But... I can tell you from my own experience (and body type) that my father went from being a 35 year old active dude @ 170ish LBS. What seemed like over night, his body bulked up to about 200LBS, a little bit of fat, but for the most, he just got thicker. Essecially in the forearms and trunk/chest. He only plays softball mind you. hahahah.

That's nice. How much did the circumfrence of his head increase? Or are there some specific "cranial girth" exercises of which Barry avails himself, and what would the specific purpose for that be?

Is your argument that Barry never took banned substances, or is it that it doesn't matter if he did?

And yes FredT, he's "innocent" in the literal legal sense, but the Court of Public Opinion (Or Court of Common Sense) has no such burden of proof. And in either of those venues -

Originally posted by yeahright
Is your argument that Barry never took banned substances, or is it that it doesn't matter if he did?

My argument is that, I have no clue what hes been taking. Nor does anyone else.

Yes, I also belive that there isnt a magic drug out there than adds swing speeds, hand eye, and power at the same time. So, yea, I belive that even if he did take drugs that they would have only worked to a very minor extent.

My arguments is that hes a good enough hitter before 98' to be what he is now with just the change of mind set, plate discipline, and a change to a home run swing - from a line drive swing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I was watching a program couple nights ago, and it was about the recent drug problems in Bicycle Racing.

They interviewed one of the guys who was on Lance's team before he was tested positive for drugs, and then came out about it after the fact that Lance was caught.

One thing he said to me was that really stuck out is this: "These drugs dont make you super man, they help - yes. But the big problem is in riding, they dont talk about it, so everyone figuers everyone is on it, and that its just leveling out the playing field when you do it." Or something along those lines.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Was Barry on the juice when it looks like all the power hitters in Baseball were too (Not to mention Pitchers)? Maybe, but, if he was.... then there was probably hundreds of other players too. Doesnt make it right, but it sheds light on the real problem. The underground drug market, and the big companys making millions from pro athletes.

But, like this topic is all about, how does this explain him leading the NL in homer runs again, at 43 years old. When, surly hes not on drugs anymore. If you ask me, like Ive said all along here, its he superior eyes and coordination.

Or is your argument that they are all still on drugs? Or is it that just Barry is on drugs?

Originally posted by JbT
My argument is that, I have no clue what hes been taking. Nor does anyone else.

The specific "what" is irrelevant. Only whether or not it was a banned substance.

Yes, I also belive that there isnt a magic drug out there than adds swing speeds, hand eye, and power at the same time. So, yea, I belive that even if he did take drugs that they would have only worked to a very minor extent.

And that's the contention. You "believe" it worked only to a minor extent. I disagree, but we'll never really know.

My arguments is that hes a good enough hitter before 98' to be what he is now with just the change of mind set, plate discipline, and a change to a home run swing - from a line drive swing.

Possible, perhaps. But not probable. Not those differences, at his age.

"... so everyone figuers everyone is on it, and that its just leveling out the playing field when you do it." Or something along those lines.

Yeah, bicycle racing. Who cares?

But, like this topic is all about, how does this explain him leading the NL in homer runs again, at 43 years old. When, surly hes not on drugs anymore. If you ask me, like Ive said all along here, its he superior eyes and coordination.

You're SURE he's not? I'm not. Yes he's a superior athlete, no question. but I am not now, nor will I ever be, convinced he's reached the HR plateau he's reached without illegal assistance.

Or is your argument that they are all still on drugs? Or is it that just Barry is on drugs?

I'll refer back to your opening statement in the above post- I don't know and you don't either.

Let me ask you this - If you're going to win anyway, is it ok to cheat? Whether it makes sense to or not, in any endeavour if the ultimate outcome is virtually inevitable, does it diminish the winner to find out he cheated?

Because if the answer is "no", I have a little political analogy for you.

Originally posted by yeahright

"... so everyone figuers everyone is on it, and that its just leveling out the playing field when you do it." Or something along those lines.

Yeah, bicycle racing. Who cares?

Please, please. Understand, IMO of course. Im no doctor. But, doing drugs for sports like Bicycle Riding has a far larger impact on the outcome of a race, than the juice would in Baseball.

That man did those drugs. He says himself, they dont make you a God. But they help a bit - IN BIKE RACING. Mostly, they help to bring you back to the even level of everyone else, cause they are all on drugs in bike riding.

This is significant to this case because Barry excelled when he was expected to be on drugs - and others like Mcguire and Cansaco were on them too.

What is hugely significant is Barry is expected to be off the drugs (if he ever was) and is still excelling.

Meaning, buy the statment that the Bycycle Rider said that Barry should have taken a bit of a slump, being off the drugs. Not leading the NL in Home Runs.

Let me ask you this - If you're going to win anyway, is it ok to cheat? Whether it makes sense to or not, in any endeavour if the ultimate outcome is virtually inevitable, does it diminish the winner to find out he cheated?

Because if the answer is "no", I have a little political analogy for you.

I think thats the real question here. If he is caught for using drugs, should he be given an "*" next to his records.

IMO, yes, He should have an "*". If he is proven to have taken them. Even, under my agrument that they dont help that much in Baseball. Period.

Again, I just dont think that the jucie helps as much as the media thinks.

Originally posted by sardion2000
All professional sports players should be required to take performance enhancing drugs.

thats what I say
cheers

Originally posted by JbT
Ive said it before and Ill say it again here. "If" he did them, I feel that they would provide way less of a impact than what has been said here. People DO bulk up at certain ages. My own father went from being a 170lbs man at about 31, to the next year struggleing to keep a 200lbs body and it wasnt fat. Im sure Barry and my Father are not freaks.

I guess my main problem with this trash talk to Barry stems from that FACT that more Pitchers get caught for using drugs than players or batters combined. (I looked for more info and a link, but couldnt find anything. Still I have heard from baseball people that this is the truth). Yet, we are still talking like Barry Bonds is the only one doing these drugs (Alegedly).

It has been said that Pitchers can get more impact from these drugs than Fielders or Batters. The extra preforance allows pitchers to go longer, throw faster, and recover faster and then more strong than before.

I think we need to stop putting this all on Barry Bonds, and throw this back into Baseballs face. Cause Barry is not the only one. Batters are not the only ones.

Its just that Barry is going after records that the elites high up in baseball wanted to preserve for marketing reasons.... Its like watching the movie 61*, but with a different subject. I envision the Commish and crew in an office trying to figuer out ways to get rid of Barry before he beats the record. I wouldn't bet against an "*" being put infront of Barrys HR title to tell you the truth.

"If" Barry Bonds did those drugs. Hes not the only one. Thats why I argue for him and with him. I dont think he should have to be the guy who takes all the blame for what Baseball allowed in the first place.

On to this point:

I rate him higher than any baseball fan I know in real life. He was a great player thru '99, and I don't think he cheated until then. But better than Ruth, Mays, Cobb, Williams, Mantle, Musial, Gehrig, etc.? Ha ha ha.

I have to ask this, why do you laugh???

Did any of those guys play against pitchers that were on the juice??? Nope, so in other words. Bonds is hitting against pitchers that are far better quality, and maybe on the juice too. Of course, you would have to belive that ptichers get as much of a advantage from it as I do. So, Ill leave you to judge that one. But for me, Bonds is right there with Ruth, Mays, Cobb, Williams, Mantle, Musial, Gehrig just because hes been successfull against juiced pitching (allegedly, right).

Anyways. The guys now 10 HR's away from the record. I watched him lastnight against the mets and man.... it cant just be the juice... The guys has freakishly amazing patience and hand eye-coordination. I mean for one it was Glavine who is one of the best offspeed pitchers, yet Barry still has the presence of mind to wait for exatly what he wants..... NO DRUGS WILL DO THIS FOR YOU. NONE.

IMO, hes got bionic eyes or something, never mind his power.


[edit on 9-5-2007 by JbT]

The notion Bonds should be given credit, or at least judged less harshly, because he's cheating against pitchers who in many instances are also cheating is, well, perceptually dyslexic. The fact he's cheating against other cheats is a reason to take NONE of their stats seriously, not a reason to given equal credit to all the cheats.

With that said, I agree that a whole lot of pitchers must be on HGH. A former very small-time MLB pitcher who was pitching in Japan when I met him on Internet poker came out and told me they're all on HGH, about 3 years ago. I'm sure it's true. My #1 all-time RHP, and #2 total pitcher, is Roger Clemens, but his stats in the past 3 seasons smell like a week-long dead fish.

Originally posted by JbT

Originally posted by yeahright

"... so everyone figuers everyone is on it, and that its just leveling out the playing field when you do it." Or something along those lines.

Yeah, bicycle racing. Who cares?

Please, please. Understand, IMO of course. Im no doctor. But, doing drugs for sports like Bicycle Riding has a far larger impact on the outcome of a race, than the juice would in Baseball.

That man did those drugs. He says himself, they dont make you a God. But they help a bit - IN BIKE RACING. Mostly, they help to bring you back to the even level of everyone else, cause they are all on drugs in bike riding.

This is significant to this case because Barry excelled when he was expected to be on drugs - and others like Mcguire and Cansaco were on them too.

What is hugely significant is Barry is expected to be off the drugs (if he ever was) and is still excelling.

Meaning, buy the statment that the Bycycle Rider said that Barry should have taken a bit of a slump, being off the drugs. Not leading the NL in Home Runs.

Let me ask you this - If you're going to win anyway, is it ok to cheat? Whether it makes sense to or not, in any endeavour if the ultimate outcome is virtually inevitable, does it diminish the winner to find out he cheated?

Because if the answer is "no", I have a little political analogy for you.

I think thats the real question here. If he is caught for using drugs, should he be given an "*" next to his records.

IMO, yes, He should have an "*". If he is proven to have taken them. Even, under my agrument that they dont help that much in Baseball. Period.

Again, I just dont think that the jucie helps as much as the media thinks.

This is just a logorrheic exercise in denial. Of COURSE Bonds is taking HGH at this point in his career, and of COURSE he took steroids before that. But anyone with a keyboard can say: (1) I'll never believe it until I see videotaped proof of it; (2) even if he did/does use, I don't care because I'd rather be entertained than watch ethical, legitimate competition; and (3) even if his head's swelling and his HR's going much farther at a gerontological age have no rational explanation, I'll spout mumbo-jumbo about how people can get bigger at 36 and thereafter... as though that can explain the type of sea change Bonds magically pulled off at age 36.

No historical precedent. And no ethically sustainable line of defense.

There is no precedent for what Bonds did, and there is no legit explanation for his seasons from 2000 on. If you want to say it's fine for MLB to be saturated with HGH, as long as they all cheat equally, that's your prerogative. But hell will freeze over before I or any of the fans I know agree.

The guy's a fraud. And there is no Santa Claus, Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy. Get used to it.

I'm in BHN's corner, this guy shoudl be banned from the game, plain and simple.

IMO steroids do help the home run hitter by speeding up the swing. We all know that it's bat speed that gives the power. That Barry could always hit the ball squarely is not in dispute.

All you have to do is look at his baseball cards from 1989-1996 compared to now and you can see the huge difference in his appearance. Would this occur from just working out? Perhaps, in slow increments given time. But he changes literally from one season to the next.

Personally, I have a cynical view that there are more cheaters in the world (in all professions) than people who have integrity.

Originally posted by TheComte
All you have to do is look at his baseball cards from 1989-1996 compared to now and you can see the huge difference in his appearance. Would this occur from just working out? Perhaps, in slow increments given time. But he changes literally from one season to the next.

not the head. A full grown man's head doesn't start to grow again unless he has acromegaly or he's taking Human Growth Hormones.

Originally posted by Crakeur
not the head. A full grown man's head doesn't start to grow again unless he has acromegaly or he's taking Human Growth Hormones.

While we're on the subject of cranial enlargement, check out Tiger Woods' head now. He looks like a freakin' Klingon. No doubt Tiger's been hitting the HGH. If it's not obvious in his body, it definitely is in the size of his head. I guarantee you that it will never be brought up in the media though.

Peace

Originally posted by Dr Love
I guarantee you that it will never be brought up in the media though.

Peace

Sure it will, the day after the PGA finds a new poster boy. Tiger made the game as prominent as it is today and the PGA isn't going to let him go down in flames until they find their new superstar.

First barry bonds had nearly 500 homeruns before his physique transformed in and around the year 2000. he was already a hall of famer, he saw sosa and big mac getting all this publicity (that the ownes needed to "save the game" after a strike (and no punishment) and was getting upset so he took the risk

CRakeur great post man way to tell it like it is (or was)

people who can't see this should not be so boisterous in there opinion's

the funniest thing is the general public's reaction since it was brought up

in congress. Next cue the media spin. steroids on all day everyday. reporters visibly upset , saying how dare he take this how dare he take that

then the public takes the cue: ahhh duuuh i think i am supposed to be MAD now, because that is how everyone else is reacting, and WHAT kind of person would i be to say who cares about drugs Now that it is no longer "our little homerun secret".

people have the audacity to blame players, and on top of it the GALL to think they can tell what players are doing it, because they think they KNOW about steroids.

70% percent of players official caught so far are PITCHERS

more recovery in between starts, less soar shoulders, not just big muscles

people even act like they care about the players health when all they care about are the little statistics that they feel are distorted NOW thanks to the MEDIA harping about this(asterisks) , (the media) knowing it was fan's achillies heel and they would naturally blame the players (and deflect from owners)


PEOPLE ARE HYPOCRITE's and FOLLOW the MEDIA's LEAD

media protected the OWNERS by acting SURPRISED and placing the blame on the PLAYERS the owners were willing to pay 60 MILLION more dollars to a player who can have a career year in his contract year from taking 3,000 worth of drugs. IT IS rampant and swept under the rug in most sports, namely the olympics, and the side effects of steroids are OVERBLOWN. People have an irrational reaction to the word "steroid" just like they do "conspiracy" B.S you say? just look at all the

HORMONE REPLacement therapy centers in NY, FL, and CA guess what they hand out testorone injections, deca durabolin, HGH same exact thing(test inj. and DEca) as steroids, just the different chemical names, and with medical supervision it is possible to stay safe over *short periods of time of use* more with HGH, but that is where addicts and greed and dumb users get in trouble

the owners are hypocrites that were playing a game of hear no evil speak no evil , see no evil until some heroic congressman blew up the party, the players were opportunistic risk takers, and the angry fans are ashamed to admit they are hypocrite's and are upset because the media implanted the idea in there head that there little statistics should have *'s next to them. and that it is the socially responsible answer to act upset, besides some love taking cheap shots at players (especially the media) who is only 2 happy to demonize a player that didn't give them the time of day

you can fool some of the people all the time and all of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all the time.

p.s bonds is still taking "stuff" and it is illegal but not as much and you can beat the tests. HGH plus some moderate testosterone dosage plus some synthetic epitestosterone because the test for testosterone doping last i heard was the testosterone /epi testosterone ratio and supplement highl levels of epi-testosterone can mask this manipulation.



[edit on 15-7-2007 by cpdaman]

[edit on 15-7-2007 by cpdaman]