War in Iraq has been declared lost by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid

Originally posted by AbuMusaab
Johnlear,

While we are probably not ideological friends, I agree with everything you have said (above). However, the neverending US presence in Iraq will just be another target. So they better hope they can defend that better than the Iraqi parliament building.

I would appreciate if you could take the time to tell me why we would not be ideological friends. Please keep your response short and to the point . Thanks.

I was hasty with that conclusion, and therefore would like to apologize.

Do you support the return of the Khilafah? I believe the Shar'iah of Allah is the only way to reform society. And that democracy and capitalism (the west's version of it) is incompatible with that.

Originally posted by AbuMusaab
I was hasty with that conclusion, and therefore would like to apologize.

Do you support the return of the Khilafah? I believe the Shar'iah of Allah is the only way to reform society. And that democracy and capitalism (the west's version of it) is incompatible with that.

I support your right to believe the Shar’iah of Allah is the only way to reform society.

But I do not believe that it is the only way to reform society any more than I believe any other specific religious tenets are the only way to reform society.

In either or any case I don’t believe that that forcing a particular religious belief on anyone else is the way to reform society.

I believe a religious belief should be a personal doctrine which helps man meet the challenges of life and not one he forces upon another.

Does this make us ideological friends or enemies?

We may not agree, but we are friends.

Too much freedom is a bad thing. There must be limits and punishments. Honesty, transparency, and good deeds are what makes a society healthy. America is spiraling down. Who's gonna yank it back before it's too late?

Originally posted by johnlear
I support our military too and that means helping them get the hell out of there as quickly as possible.

Those military soldiers (if any) who still support our Commander In Chief would probably think differently if they had any idea the contempt with which the CIC and his neocon handlers hold the U.S. Soldier.

Bulls eye,
The military time is being extended, more soliders are dying, and the surge is slowly starting to fail.
The moral must be getting pretty low amongst soliders, there CIC sent them in their to fight a fake war, and now he's arguing to keep them there, when there no clear goal to achieve.

So long as foreign soliders are in Iraq, Iraqi's and other Arabs are going to come and fight.

We made the mistake of removing saddam, so we have to accept the consequences for our actions. Iraq will become another Iran.

Originally posted by AbuMusaab
Too much freedom is a bad thing.

This is an appalling statement and strongly contrary to human history.

Originally posted by AbuMusaab
Allahu Akbar! Israel is defeated in Lebanon and now America has admitted defeat in Iraq, with Afghanistan slipping from your grip as well.

Freedom is on the march?

Invade Iran next please...

Who says it? This politician says it? A Democrat says it. Not the President. Not to mention that in previous wars, Arab nations failed to defeat Israel by trying to wipe it out, I wonder why you don't have that type of motivation to do it? Something stopping you? Allah didn't back you up? We are still in Afghanistan and Iraq, history has not been written. You have politicians predicting when nobody has the ability to see the future.

Originally posted by niv

Originally posted by AbuMusaab
Too much freedom is a bad thing.

This is an appalling statement and strongly contrary to human history.

Niv, I find your statement as a classic and defining example of why different religious cultures cannot get along.

Without even asking AbuMusaab to clarify the statement you go on the attack and make an equally appalling statement that "Too much freedom is a bad thing" is contrary to human history. Are you kidding? Whatever can you mean by that statement?

This classic example of communication or 'miscommunication' or 'non-communication is exactly why there is no solution nor can there ever be any solution (at least not within the next few millenia) to issues between different religions. And this is why the U.S. will be trapped forever in the quagmire known as the 'middle east'.

A classic display of "I am right, you are wrong. Bang!"

Originally posted by deltaboy

Not to mention that in previous wars, Arab nations failed to defeat Israel by trying to wipe it out.

Delataboy just to be technically correct here and to clarify the issue, Israel has never won any war without the massive political, strategic and tactical help of the United States of America.

Originally posted by johnlearThis classic example of communication or 'miscommunication' or 'non-communication is exactly why there is no solution nor can there ever be any solution (at least not within the next few millenia) to issues between different religions. And this is why the U.S. will be trapped forever in the quagmire known as the 'middle east'.

A classic display of "I am right, you are wrong. Bang!"

Actually, my position isn't typical Western. I tend towards libertarianism and believe that the best government is one with minimal rules and restrictions on freedom. In any event, I can think of no example, no supporting evidence that would support a statement that "too much freedom is a bad thing". I'm not sure how my religion is relevant, as most Christian sects are probably strongly opposed to too much freedom. Certainly, all Christian sects impose religious-based restrictions on individual freedom, such as related to marriage, abortion, etc.

The instances throughout history where citizens of a country have been most oppressed have been in countries where government most oppresses its citizens freedoms, such as, in recent times, fascism and communism.

Originally posted by niv

Actually, my position isn't typical Western. I tend towards libertarianism and believe that the best government is one with minimal rules and restrictions on freedom. In any event, I can think of no example, no supporting evidence that would support a statement that "too much freedom is a bad thing". I'm not sure how my religion is relevant, as most Christian sects are probably strongly opposed to too much freedom. Certainly, all Christian sects impose religious-based restrictions on individual freedom, such as related to marriage, abortion, etc.

And you continue with your classic response and defense which begins with 'my position...I tend....I can......I'm not.....'

Get it? You are not the least bit interested in what anybody else has to say. This is the crux of misunderstanding. You are not interested. You do not care. You do not want to know.

All you are interested in is supporting your position.

But no problem. This is the way things work and the way they will always work.

Originally posted by johnlear

Delataboy just to be technically correct here and to clarify the issue, Israel has never won any war without the massive political, strategic and tactical help of the United States of America.

O yeah thats a great excuse for Arabs to use for explanation for the failures when they got their own support from the Soviet Union to balance things out to take on the tiny nation.

Originally posted by johnlearAnd you continue with your classic response and defense which begins with 'my position...I tend....I can......I'm not.....'

Get it? You are not the least bit interested in what anybody else has to say. This is the crux of misunderstanding. You are not interested. You do not care. You do not want to know.

All you are interested in is supporting your position.

But no problem. This is the way things work and the way they will always work.

Not really. I can only argue or defend my point of view. I'm sure the other poster can and will argue or defend his/her view on ATS. John I've seen your posts and you certainly seem to have a point of view on various subjects. Do you really need to hear everyone else's viewpoint on every subject?

Besides John, I lost all respect for you when I read that you don't like cheetos.

Originally posted by johnlear
[And you continue with your classic response and defense which begins with 'my position...I tend....I can......I'm not.....

So, Mr. Lear, you don’t support taking a stance on important issues? Your disdain for those who will defend what they feel to be religious truth aside, do you really feel that we should all just sit on the fence politically? When, Mr. Lear, do you suppose we should stand up to what we believe to be injustice? Would you have ridiculed someone for saying "my position is that Pol Pot needs to be removed from power" or would you support them?

I haven’t read to much of your work, nor do I have any desire to. I am not part of the worship John Lear fan club, so I don’t know too much about your typical stance on issues, but it would seem to me after reading this thread that you are political correctness snob. Do you make it a habit of accusing those who would stand up for what they believe to be right or is this something new to you?

Just how long do want everyone to sit on the fence while the world changes around them, Mr. Lear?

BTW, you are being incredibly hypocritical here. You tell others to listen more, not to judge the opinions of others, yet in doing so you try to enforce your lets all just get along moral code on others.


[edit on 23-4-2007 by cavscout]

The world is not changing, you have just been introduced to it. Since you've apparently been sitting in a comfortable daze, your government has been rampaging around the world forcing their way of life down on others through subversive tactics and, often times, war.

It has gone on long enough, and now you are experiencing the consequences (or just noticing them at least).

Originally posted by AbuMusaab
The world is not changing, you have just been introduced to it.

Well, the western world has been changing. Your world changes little, still stuck in the dark ages. Our dark age ended when we decided to separate religion from state.

I do understand what you meant, however. Contrary to the lies your leaders tell you, Americans in general are not oblivious to the world around us. We know what happens, we know who hates us, we know the things that Israel does, we just usually don’t care. The majority of your people are stuck in the dark ages because you think your god is a political entity who wants your people subjected to certain laws from your governments. Problem is, when you deny basic freedom there is little motivation to create and produce, except for the ruling class. This is the situation you are stuck in, and you hate America because we are different, we are on the top, we must be oppressing you. If you want to get to the root of who is oppressing you, look at your Koran and look at your leaders. Wake up.

Allah does not seem to be leading you people down the path to a good life. Allah does not seem to want you people to prosper. Based on the condition of most Islamic nations it would appear that Allah actually hates Muslims. Could it be that you have pinned the wrong person/entity as the great Satan? Seems like if Satan wanted to hurt people he would make them just as impoverished as most Muslim nations, so that their hearts would be filled with as much hatred as your is.

We made a big deal of 9/11 but the truth is that most Americans really don’t care that much unless they knew someone who knew someone who had a cousin that died or used to live in NY. I would bet that most Americans only think about once a month in passing. We are not, in general, sitting on the couch crying our eyes out each night. Enjoy the death your ilk caused, take glee in it if you will, because here it is all but forgotten.

See, you all think we care way more than we do. America is a big place, with lots of people. Most of us have never been to NY, nor will ever go there. To those of us on the west coast, NY is as strange a land as Canada. Sorry if all this is harsh, but it is what it is. We don’t even know who to blame, and we never will for sure, because the outrage has died away. People have moved on.

Hate to say all this, but it is the hard truth. You know, like the hard truth we had to listen spew forth from the mouth of Mr. Reid.

Since you've apparently been sitting in a comfortable daze, your government has been rampaging around the world forcing their way of life down on others through subversive tactics and, often times, war.

Comfortable daze? No, we know what is going on. Although many of don’t support it, we know they are working to the betterment of America at the cost of other nations.

Actually, although I dont support the war, it may make you feel better to know that I am one of those murdering SOBs that invaded Iraq. That is where I was sitting, not in a "comfortable daze." I know what goes on, bud, better probably than you do. I love the Iraqi people more than you probably ever will love a society. My dreams and much of waking time is filled with thoughts of Iraq. I lost my soul there, it has meaning for me. To you it is an excuse for hate

It has gone on long enough, and now you are experiencing the consequences (or just noticing them at least).

Yeah, whatever helps you sleep at night. Kind of reminds me of a mouse trying to hurt a human by chewing off a button on a shirt. Little mouse is so proud of himself, goes home thinking "man, I showed him! wait til he sees that, hes going to cry. He will rue the day he messed with the mice!"


[edit on 23-4-2007 by cavscout]

Originally posted by AbuMusaab
The world is not changing, you have just been introduced to it. Since you've apparently been sitting in a comfortable daze, your government has been rampaging around the world forcing their way of life down on others through subversive tactics and, often times, war.

It has gone on long enough, and now you are experiencing the consequences (or just noticing them at least).

Still dreaming of that caliphate of yours?

Originally posted by cavscout
Just how long do want everyone to sit on the fence while the world changes around them, Mr. Lear?

BTW, you are being incredibly hypocritical here. You tell others to listen more, not to judge the opinions of others, yet in doing so you try to enforce your lets all just get along moral code on others.

Actually I was trying to point out that arguments based on facts which included the others point of view carried more weight than the typical , I'm right, you're wrong, don't confuse me with the facts.

The only reason I'm fence sitting in this case is because I feel “We invaded a country that did not threaten us, did not attack us, and did not want war with us, to disarm it of weapons we have since discovered it did not have. We may have ignited a war of civilizations it was in our vital interest to avoid". (Thanks Pat.) Now it appears we have commited the the greatest strategic blunder in 40 years, a mistake more costly than Vietnam, that has cost the lives of 12,000 U.S. Military and 650,000 Iraqi men women and children. And there is no end in sight. And you are accusing Muslims of being in the Dark Ages? You think "Our God" thinks we are doing the right think. Are we killing for Christianity?

And you think I am being hypocritical cavscout?

And, oh, by the way, regarding your snide little comment about Pol Pot: I was in Phnom Penh in 1972. Where were you?

Originally posted by johnlear
And you are accusing Muslims of being in the Dark Ages? You think "Our God" thinks we are doing the right think. Are we killing for Christianity?

Actually, I never said that. Read my posts and you will see that I am very much against the war and the troops who fight it. No, we are not killing for Christianity, nor do I believe for a second that Christ wants us to kill anyone. Put on your tin thinking cap and read between the lines, sir.

And, oh, by the way, regarding your snide little comment about Pol Pot: I was in Phnom Penh in 1972. Where were you?

Yes, yes, use emotion. That works. You know damn well what I meant and if you dont then you can re-read my post, I wont spell it out for you.

For what its worth, I wasnt born yet. I am 27 years old.

If you want to pretend you are dumb, however, if you feel like playing the "I was there so you cant argue game" then I was Iraq so my opinion is more valid. There, argument won, right? No? How about this: Hey John Lear, Dont you tell me I was there, man, I was there!

Originally posted by cavscoutYeah, whatever helps you sleep at night. Kind of reminds me of a mouse trying to hurt a human by chewing off a button on a shirt. Little mouse is so proud of himself, goes home thinking "man, I showed him! wait til he sees that, hes going to cry. He will rue the day he messed with the mice!"

Unless that bite causes a wound that festers, because instead of applying proper first aid and taking care of it, the person aggravates it by scratching or ignoring it.

The bigger they are, the harder they fall.