Venezuela vs Netherlands

Originally posted by INeedHelp

Originally posted by Foppezao
www.strategypage.com...

Well, to be honest, the editor of that magazine and James Dunnigan are stupid. Not only you Dutchmen never won a war against us, but the theory

Well in the history books i have red
we as the republic of 7 provinces and -batavia were in about 6 times in war with england, practically all fought on sea..
1652-1654[england wins]
1665-1667[republic wins]
1672-1674[republic wins][the years of the Ruyter ]
1780-1784[england wins][as the result of dutch aid to american independence]
1795-1797[republic wins] [england was with the russians the dutch were with the french]
1803[england wins]
so we go pretty even, in the end it was england that ruled the waves, true.

[edit on 22-4-2007 by Foppezao]

I dont think Venezuela has a big track record of invading countries.
It is much more likely that it will get invaded itself one day by maybe even the netherlands

The Dutch have had their ass whooped before so why not in this scenario.

Originally posted by jaamaan
I dont think Venezuela has a big track record of invading countries.
It is much more likely that it will get invaded itself one day by maybe even the netherlands

The Dutch have had their ass whooped before so why not in this scenario.

For one, because it would be in the US' backyard, meaning we would help, logistically in the least, maybe with air and naval support as well. Any invasion of those islands by Venezuela would be shunned by the world, I mean, everyone loves the Dutch, who doesn't like the Dutch?

"Who doesn't like the Dutch?"

- Ask an Indonesian. I was surprised that some of them actually disliked the Dutch more than the Japanese who had invaded during WWII. One man told me "The Japanese were only here for five years. The Dutch were here for five hundred years." Grudges go way back.

But again, I think this thread shows you that politics is much more significant than the specific military capabilities of the two nations. Luckily, this is why a conflict is very, very unlikely.

Don't touch the island or you'll get some punches from the dutches monkeys
then some nato fools will come into the picture and # up your draw
Seriously, Chavez wanna regain a piece of land lost ? can't be serious but if he is i say Chavez "don't even try" ....bcoz it's NAToO00 time otherwise

I really don't think NATO(read Europe) will step in pro-actively to assist the Dutch in retaking the islands..
My gauging of the political situation makes me say that.. but that's just me..
Even the US participation if any would be be purely because of the animosity towards Chavez.
IMHO if the country in question was NOT Venezuela(and say Brazil or something) then even overt US participation would be highly improbable.

See the Islands are way too far away from the Netherlands to exert any geographical claims.
Infact in today's world they're nothing but a fading footprint of the colonial era.

Like I said before, if some country halfway across the planet owned some islands just a few clicks off my coastline; I would not appreciate it.. whehter the claim was 5 days old or 500.

But that's just me(and my country)
Not taking sides here.
And sure do hope there's no war.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
I really don't think NATO(read Europe) will step in pro-actively to assist the Dutch in retaking the islands..

They must. We are Dutch and the majority here on these islands want to remain that way, except for a few idiots who want to become independent. As if the majority would ever let something like that happen... I have a Dutch/European Union nationality, and I would like it to remain that way.

Like I said before, if some country halfway across the planet owned some islands just a few clicks off my coastline; I would not appreciate it.. whehter the claim was 5 days old or 500.

Well you would have to respect the wishes of the population on those islands. Btw... The Netherlands doesn't own us. Not since the constitution of 1954. Aruba, The Netherlands Antilles and The Netherlands are all equal partners in the Dutch Kingdom.

In fact, IMO the best thing for Aruba and the Netherlands Antilles is for us and them to officially join the EU a soon as possible under the lands overseas code (treaty of Amsterdam 299/2)

Originally posted by TheBandit795
They must. We are Dutch and the majority here on these islands want to remain that way, except for a few idiots who want to become independent. As if the majority would ever let something like that happen...

I have a Dutch/European Union nationality, and I would like it to remain that way.

Ah yes.. now you dive into the deeper semantics of territorial rights and he likes.
I respect your right to choice of wanting Dutch citizenship, and the reasons behind that are quite obvious starting from the 'Standard of Living'.
But its not so simple.
It never is.
Otherwise all colonial possessions would remain as they were; esp the geographically small ones.
But this discussion can only be carried forward on PTS, or even BTS maybe.

Like I said before, if some country halfway across the planet owned some islands just a few clicks off my coastline; I would not appreciate it.. whehter the claim was 5 days old or 500.

Well you would have to respect the wishes of the population on those islands.

True.. but again only to a certain extent.
Depends on whether the population was indigenous or of transplanted ethinicity.

Btw... The Netherlands doesn't own us. Not since the constitution of 1954. Aruba, The Netherlands Antilles and The Netherlands are all equal partners in the Dutch Kingdom.

Yea.. I read up on that.. interesting..
Something like full autonomy?

In fact, IMO the best thing for Aruba and the Netherlands Antilles is for us and them to officially join the EU a soon as possible under the lands overseas code (treaty of Amsterdam 299/2)

Good for the Arubans but it would raise many an eyebrow in South America, esp for those nations who are aspiring to be regional powers.
Such a move would expand the strategic legality of the EU right across the Atlantic.
Infact, even the right wing hawks in the US would feel awkward.
Remember, there are no permanent friends or enemies, only permanent strategic interests.


Nice dog you have there Bandit.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
They must.

What the British military must and doesn't have to do is decided by us, British citizens, not you. If you're not a British citizen, we don't care what you ask our military to do.

[edit on 24-4-2007 by INeedHelp]

You seem to be extremely jumpy there ineedhelp..

Did you read my reply to your previous post?

Originally posted by Wembley

"Who doesn't like the Dutch?"

- Ask an Indonesian. I was surprised that some of them actually disliked the Dutch more than the Japanese who had invaded during WWII. One man told me "The Japanese were only here for five years. The Dutch were here for five hundred years." Grudges go way back.

But again, I think this thread shows you that politics is much more significant than the specific military capabilities of the two nations. Luckily, this is why a conflict is very, very unlikely.

I can understand that, we did some bad things in places like Atjeh, but think about how it should be for Indonesians to live under Japanese rule for over hundred years instead of "short five", with their camps and their "comfort girls" [rape houses]we wouldnt do things like that not in those times, not in a hundred years.They where housemades but not systematicaly raped..And thats different with the germans[, the japanese still dont talk about it, maybe a shamed.
And like bandit says its not about what the venezuelans think about the islands its what the antillianen want themselves, we take pretty good care of those, even if they go to holland..
As for Aruba, whas it when shell left in the seventies? we left them pretty much empty handed, it were the americans who took care of the arubans, in terms of employabilty and tourism, thats why its such an american island, that and of course the Holloway case make it an sensitive Island for the US.

[edit on 24-4-2007 by Foppezao]

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Ah yes.. now you dive into the deeper semantics of territorial rights and he likes.
I respect your right to choice of wanting Dutch citizenship, and the reasons behind that are quite obvious starting from the 'Standard of Living'.
But its not so simple.
It never is.
Otherwise all colonial possessions would remain as they were; esp the geographically small ones.
But this discussion can only be carried forward on PTS, or even BTS maybe.

Well it's still on topic, so it's no problem to discuss it here. Like I've said before, we're not a colonial possession anymore. Not since 1954. We are as a population of the island, fully in our rights to determine what status we want to have. Any change of status has to go via a referendum. If it was up to one of the old Netherlands governments, we would've been independent since 1996. Nobody wanted that, so we're still in the kingdom.

True.. but again only to a certain extent.
Depends on whether the population was indigenous or of transplanted ethinicity.

Doesn't matter. The majority of the population has ancestors from somewhere else. My direct ancestors were born in the Neth Antilles (which Aruba was part of back then), Surinam, Virgin Islands, and Germany (as far as I can trace). That doesn't mean I don't have the right to live here and vote (in an election and/or a referendum) about what will happen on my island?

In fact, the only indigenous population from Aruba, the Arawaks are practically extinct. There are only a few people here now who can partly trace their ancestry to them.

Besides, the majority of people in and around the caribbean region and South America are mixed. Pure blood Native Americans are rare, except for certain countries and parts of the the continent.

Yea.. I read up on that.. interesting..
Something like full autonomy?

Yep.

Good for the Arubans but it would raise many an eyebrow in South America, esp for those nations who are aspiring to be regional powers.
Such a move would expand the strategic legality of the EU right across the Atlantic.

Infact, even the right wing hawks in the US would feel awkward.
Remember, there are no permanent friends or enemies, only permanent strategic interests.

[/

Well they should be feeling awkward already because there are French Caribbean islands and a (French) South American country that already have that status. They just have to respect the fact that we are EU citizens.

Nice dog you have there Bandit.

He died two months ago unfortunately...

[edit on 24-4-2007 by TheBandit795]

Originally posted by TheBandit795

Well they should be feeling awkward already because there are French Caribbean islands and a (French) South American country that already have that status. They just have to respect the fact that we are EU citizens.

Well if its the French then yes, I'd be willing to bet that they'd be feeling awkward already.
The French are the most 'autonomous' non-aligned entity in Europe.

The rest of your post.. I still feel it inappropriate to discuss, irrespective of forum location and more so because of your nationality and obvious relevance to the subject at hand.

I would leave it at this..
Venezuela is tackling this around 50 years too late. In fact, having achieved independance way back in 1815?..its surprising that they never thought about such things all this while.

He died two months ago unfortunately...

[edit on 24-4-2007 by TheBandit795]

Really sorry about your dog though. Losing a pet is quite traumatic!



[edit on 24-4-2007 by Daedalus3]

Agreed the local people should have a say, but it doesn't always work out like that. I suspect a lot of folk in Hong Kong would have preferred to stay under British rule, but ti was still handed over to the Chinse...no real alternative.

At any rate I guess we all agree that politics is the deciding factor here, not who has more ships.

A lot of my people would have to die for Aruba not to be handed over to Venezuela. I'm willing to die for that myself.

The Arubian system is way too different than Venezuela. Take the language for example. Our school system is based on the Dutch system and we get taught in dutch. Any official document is made in dutch. Our laws are in dutch. Now how are we going to suddenly change all of that to spanish? Besides.. my spanish is poor, so I'd suddenly be illiterate ..

About the Indonesians hating the dutch.
Every single indonesian person I have spoken to, refers to the japanese people as the ''jappen'' (dutch pronunciation) and hates THEM rather than the dutch people.

I also have an indonesian family from my "grandma's side" (my mother was born in the netherlands but has partial indonesian blood in her) which makes me essentially part indonesian as well. =) (Till now only one person has ever guess that I was at least partially indonesian, which is quite funny, as most characteristics of my body would show me to ''not be indonesian'' at all)


About the whole conflict thing.
Sure you can blow up your ego and say how WEST / europe / usa is pwnage and that the dutch would pwn them and god may know what.

But remember, Power is useless if it cannot be applied efficiently.

If Aruba would be attacked whilst the Dutch wouldn't be prepared for it, and Aruba gets captured before the Dutch can send a small air force to it, then they are ''potentially screwed''.

Though if the refuel planes refuel them at 3/4 or 1/2 of their flight path they would have enough fuel to make it there.

Originally posted by -0mega-
About the Indonesians hating the dutch.
Every single indonesian person I have spoken to, refers to the japanese people as the ''jappen'' (dutch pronunciation) and hates THEM rather than the dutch people.

I also have an indonesian family from my "grandma's side" (my mother was born in the netherlands but has partial indonesian blood in her) which makes me essentially part indonesian as well. =) (Till now only one person has ever guess that I was at least partially indonesian, which is quite funny, as most characteristics of my body would show me to ''not be indonesian'' at all)


About the whole conflict thing.
Sure you can blow up your ego and say how WEST / europe / usa is pwnage and that the dutch would pwn them and god may know what.

But remember, Power is useless if it cannot be applied efficiently.

If Aruba would be attacked whilst the Dutch wouldn't be prepared for it, and Aruba gets captured before the Dutch can send a small air force to it, then they are ''potentially screwed''.

Though if the refuel planes refuel them at 3/4 or 1/2 of their flight path they would have enough fuel to make it there.

Yeah we also called them jappen, like we called the nazi-german moffen
but he i got lots of respect for the japanese people nowadays...maybe even because they got more respect for their fellow -and elder citizens [in public life] then here in the west..same for the germans..love those #ers..
we all did nasty things in the past

Originally posted by TheBandit795
A lot of my people would have to die for Aruba not to be handed over to Venezuela. I'm willing to die for that myself.

And that's what makes the difference. If you publicise that sentiment then it would definitely deflate any pompous invasion sentiments.
I was going to ask you this question before, but hesitated because it was not an easy question to answer. However you've pre-empted the answer

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Is this how you gauge military equip?

So planes that were annihilated by a Communist military are good planes? Keep wishing.

Yeah, and then remember Cope India 04,05,06.. Garuda I, II, III and Indradhanush..

Exercises are irrelevant. Only real combat and Plane Show history matters. During the 2001 Paris Plane Show the Russians were humiliated.

Yea because they can field their F-16s in the battlespace while we are still debating how the Dutch will be able to field more than a sqn of fighters in the area.

They are able to deploy them to the Dutch Antilles - just like F-16s from Texan factories can fly from the US to Israel. No tankers needed.

Logic dictates that they won't be able to hold out for long. Not with the Su-30s having R-77AEs etc etc..

How are the Venezuelans going to win if they're going to fly Su-30s?

W/o Countires like the US

Well, I doubt the Americans would refuse to allow the Dutch to fight against Venezuelans - isn't Chavez an enemy of Bush?

As of now only one operational.. And not sure if its AIP.
Any sources on 4 operational SSKs?

I dunno how many Venezuelan subs are now surge-ready, I only know that 4 are supposed to be soon.

Firstly, no you wouldn't nuke them over the Falklands.

Wrong yet again, Thatcher threatened to nuke the Falklands.

you might have even prevented the break-up of the Soviet Union with a move like that!

Actually, the USSR would be split even earlier, because the Soviets would be scared if we would use nuclear weapons against anyone. But we Britons aren't evil, we will use nuclear weapons only if someone launches his nukes at us first.

And secondly; yes you have a better military but you were operating at over 15000km from your own coastlines

That means that our military is indeed powerful since we won a war against a hostile military stationed 15000 kms from the metropolis.

and even though you are a blue water force that is something that tends to stretch ones supply routes thin.

But we have the RFA. This means our aicraft carrier battle groups can act like independent nations which can sustain themselves until they win the war.

Also using fighters that were inherently MUCH faster than the Harriers

Irrelevant, as you know. The Harriers have somehow been proven to be superior to the French planes the Argentines were flying. As an Indian, you shouldn't mock our military, we've conquered India 2 centuries ago. We WON the war because we have a better military than the Argentines, not because they had stupid commanders. Name one war Britain lost since 1783. You can't. Name one war Argentina won (not counting the anti-Spanish uprising). You can't. And the Falklands war has happened 25 years ago. Not 224 years ago.

1652-1654[england wins]
1665-1667[republic wins]
1672-1674[republic wins][the years of the Ruyter ]
1780-1784[england wins][as the result of dutch aid to american independence]
1795-1797[republic wins] [england was with the russians the dutch were with the french]
1803[england wins]

Wrong. Read this

We won the first three wars, we lost the fourth war, but it was the Americans who won, not you Dutchmen. The fifth war was fought against the French and you Dutchmen, and it didn't end 1797, it ended 1815, when Napoleon surrendered.

[edit on 29-4-2007 by INeedHelp]

Originally posted by INeedHelp

We won the first three wars, we lost the fourth war, but it was the Americans who won, not you Dutchmen. The fifth war was fought against the French and you Dutchmen, and it didn't end 1797, it ended 1815, when Napoleon surrendered.

[edit on 29-4-2007 by INeedHelp]

Have you only based you opinion on these lines? from "brittanica"

Anglo-Dutch Wars all arose from commercial rivalry between the two nations, and victories by England established its naval might

If you read more carefully or on detailed ites like this en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org... [and the others] you can see that we actually defeated the english in a couple of wars, the "disaster" of medway for example or solebay, pretty well know also by the english..
there are some twistpoints like the four days battle were the english claim victory claiming that we had retreated first ..infact we had inflicted much more damage on your ships and the english retreated first but our ships reached our harbours earlier[maybe it was the wind ]..thats odd history learning by you funny island people .. but you cant deny de Ruyter kicked english ass pretty often

[edit on 29-4-2007 by Foppezao]